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Discussion Forum

Steam Heat and Boilers

BossHog | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on November 13, 2003 05:08am

I was talking to a HVAC guy today about possibly replacing the steam heating system in a house that we’re thinking about buying. (Long story)

I was thinking about tearing out the old radiators and heating system from the 1950s, and replacing it with 2 zoned units so we’d have heat and AC. (There’s no AC in the place now)

There are 2 reasons I was thinking about doing this. The first was to gain central air in the house, and the other was to lower utility bills. (The owner says gas and electric are $200 per month average)

The HVAC guy said he didn’t recommend taking out the steam heat – That steam boilers were just as efficient back then as they are now. He said the system probably just needs cleaned and serviced, as the owners have done little maintenance on the house in the 15~ years they’ve lived there. (The HVAC guy knows them fairly well)

What threw me about this is his statement that boilers were as efficient in the 1950s as they are now. That just doesn’t sound right. I didn’t think to ask him if gas forced air units are more or less efficient than steam boilers.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Seen it all, done it all, can’t remember most of it.

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Replies

  1. BJC | Nov 13, 2003 05:30pm | #1

    Boss,

    I can't add any real specifics, but I had a very similar situation when I bought my house. I took the old steam boiler out and the temperature in the basement dropped at least 15 - 20 degrees. That told me that my old boiler wasn't too efficient at getting the heat upstairs where we like it.

    Then there are the other issues like having two zones and AC will make the house more comfortable and your resale will be higher.

    Best of luck with the house.

  2. csnow | Nov 13, 2003 06:32pm | #2

    Steam is technically good stuff.  Very efficient heat transfer medium.  Inherently long-lived and reliable.  Many very old systems still in service.

    The trouble is, when you do have problems or need to make changes, it is tricky to service and get right.  Many of those with the proper knowledge are no longer with us.  If you have someone who can maintain it, I would suggest keeping it.

    It is far better than air heat for so many reasons.

    I doubt the air system would ever pay for itself in either energy savings or comfort.

    JMHO

    1. User avater
      BossHog | Nov 13, 2003 06:56pm | #4

      I've had a lot of people tell me how nice steam heat is. But my own (limited) experiences don't run that way.

      There was a steam system in the house we live in now when we bought it. The system was innficient and impossible to control. Comfort wasn't in the vocabularly of words I used to describe it.

      We tore out the system and installed gas forced air with AC, and I love it.Back Up My Hard Drive? How do I Put it in Reverse?

  3. User avater
    BillHartmann | Nov 13, 2003 06:47pm | #3

    You might want to ask about this at "The Wall".

    http://www.heatinghelp.com/

    They specialist in steam and hot water systems.

    But let me ask you this? You are talking about doing with a 2 zone systems and AC.

    Are you thinking about compleletly stripping the whole system and going with forced air?

    1. User avater
      BossHog | Nov 13, 2003 06:56pm | #5

      "You are talking about doing with a 2 zone systems and AC. Are you thinking about compleletly stripping the whole system and going with forced air? "

      Yup. I was thinking about zoned heat for 2 reasons - First would be energy savings.

      The second is that it's a 2 story house with a walkup 3rd story attic. I figured one system could go in the basement for the first floor, and the other could go in the attic for the 2nd floor.

      I may wander over to "the wall" and ask. But I thought I'd start here, since there's such a wealth of knowledge.Q: Why do bagpipers walk as they play?A: To get away from the sound.

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Nov 13, 2003 07:01pm | #6

        I really don't know anything about steam heat. And it might be typically to run it with one main supply line.

        But I would assume that you could zone the steam heat.

        At the least they make those thermostatic valves that you can install on each radiator for HW use. Don't know if there are anything similar for steam.

    2. User avater
      BossHog | Nov 13, 2003 07:13pm | #7

      This is the house we're looking at:

      Don't know how I did it, but the image attached twice. I'll post the link anyway, so the pic should show up in this post.

      View Image

      On the other hand, you have different fingers.

      1. NormKerr | Nov 13, 2003 08:42pm | #8

        The thing about steam heat is that:

        - the air in the house will tend to be less dry in the winter (healthier)

        - the system will be silent (any banging or noise is sign that yours is simply not adjusted properly, or requires some basic alignment after 50 ~ 100 years of the building settling, etc.).

        - the towels, blankets and you will feel warmer than the air around them because the 212F radiator will radiate the heat directly into objects (this is more productive than blowing warm air over an object) similar to the sun's rays on a sunny day.

        - the adjustment and maintainence of an old steam system must be done correctly for it to work correctly and efficiently. Most "terrible, old steam systems" are ripped out for this reason. The owner did not understand them, could not find a hydronic service person who could properly set it up for them, and forced air is so cheap to install, that most people really don't want to be bothered.

        - steam radiators are large and are sometimes difficult to work furniture/decorating around. Converting the whole system to hot water is sometimes a best scenario so that difficult locations can be changed over to radiant floor or base-board heat from the same boiler, (although, to take the most advantage of a hot-water conversion really calls for the re-sizing of the boiler since the function is so very different the original steam boiler might be oversized for hot water). Hot water heat is the best option, I think, rather than giving it all up and resorting to forced hot air.

        I think it is too bad to rip out steam or hot water for something like forced air. Just like folks who will rip out old plaster, just because they think that's part of taking care of an old house. Unfortunately, dry wall has some drawbacks and takes away a certain 'feel' that some homeowners treasure like fireplaces, hardwood floors and fine woodwork. Others really don't give a darn and rip away.

        My advice is to get the help from the http://www.heatinghelp folks to make sure that your current system is properly set up and running correctly before you make a judgement. In my experience, I learned to really appreciate my system during that phase, and find that it is VERY efficient to heat my house with it (compared to some of my neighbors) and running a separate AC system JUST for cooling can be retrofitted with little or no wall destruction if you do it wisely (also, high-pressure AC can be run thru 2" tubes for really historical applications, just watch out for outlet placement to avoid uncomfortable drafts).

        hydronically yours,

        Norm

        1. User avater
          BossHog | Nov 13, 2003 09:49pm | #11

          I don't think you're goig to have much luck talking me into keeping the steam heat. (If we buy the house)

          For one, I don't like it. Don't like the radiators, poor temperature control, etc.

          Second, there's no one around that knows anything about them. One of the drawbacks of living in a small rural community.

          I did post over at heatinghelp.com but haven't gotten a lot of responses yet. I'll see what turns up over the next couple of days.

          My basic question still hasn't been adressed: Is an old steam boiler as efficient as a modern furnace?Q: What are the three types of men?A: The handsome, the caring and the majority.

          1. HammerHarry | Nov 13, 2003 11:15pm | #12

            I guess I'm missing something, if the steam heat will keep the air less dry, as someone said.  I thought steam heat was a closed system!

            Seriously, I like hot air for two reasons:  I hate the baseboards/radiators that you get with certain other systems; two, we have a dog.  And circulating the air helps filter out the dust and dander from the dog.  Still have to vacuum, dammit.  Think I'll have to supercharge the fan on the furnace!

          2. csnow | Nov 13, 2003 11:45pm | #13

            "two, we have a dog.  And circulating the air helps filter out the dust and dander from the dog."

            Not really wanting to start a big wet/dry debate, but I have to disagree here.  Have you seen what accumulates in ductwork?  Also, blowing air stirs up particles, and keeps them suspended.

            You would be much better off with a wet system, and a central vac that exhausts to the outside.

          3. jimmy1 | Dec 04, 2003 01:11am | #56

            I've lived with both forced air and steam.  Wife and I bought a 2 family (northeast) that had oil fired steam.  The 2 boilers had not been serviced since their installation 10 years ago.  5,000.00 later, both boilers scaled, and all parts replaced, properly vented piping etc. done by a guy who has a passion for steam --goes to all the seminars on steam through the union(he said there were only 20 guys there for the whole state of Massachusetts) and reads all he can on the subject, we averaged 80.00 worth of fuel oil a month per unit1,600 sq ft. 1927 dwelling. During the heating season (Sept 15-May 15) These are last years stats--one of the coldest I remember. So draw your own conclusions.  We heated the units to a steady 74 degrees while home.  We only heard the system when the boiler fired, other than that you wouldn't hear them at all.  Never a clang,bump or hiss.  My wife is from the south and never complained.  Forced hot air is great when it is blowing (cat hair all over the place) but uneven during the intervals before the thermostat calls for heat.  I am crazy about steam and radiators  because my wife will walk around the house in her undies in January.  She always had a damn sweater on when we lived with the forced hot air. 

            Incidentally they were similar dwellings in age and sq.footage.

            Jimbob

          4. eggdog23 | Nov 14, 2003 12:14am | #15

            Boss, nice house!

            You can get a mini-duct system ie Unico/Spacepak to handle the cooling needs of (potentially) your house.  You can also get it fitted with an electric coil, which is what we plan to use to heat and cool the second and third floors of our 1920's foursquare.

            As far as efficiency, I can't believe a 1950's boiler is as efficient as a modern boiler or forced air system---I think our 5-year-old furnaces are 90+ percent efficient.

            That said, I hope you seriously consider keeping the radiators, especially if the system can easily be put back in working order.  I'm no expert on boilers, but I am pretty sure you can get your system zoned using manifolds and thermostats. Seems like TOH is always working with boilers.

          5. HammerHarry | Nov 14, 2003 03:12am | #16

            Boss, I don't remember where you are, but around here one of the most efficient ways to heat (and cool) a house is with a forced air system and a heat pump.  Depends on the specifics of your climate.

            In all my experience, my allergies are lowest in houses with circulating air (nat gas/oil/heat pump), and with hw or electric baseboard, I find the air is not as good.  Others may differ, but I like having the air moving.

          6. User avater
            BossHog | Nov 14, 2003 03:44am | #17

            "In all my experience, my allergies are lowest in houses with circulating air..."

            I agree. I think the furnace filters take a lot of the dust out. I don't buy the arguement that they "just blow dust around".Once you've seen one shopping centre, you've seen a mall.

          7. User avater
            BossHog | Nov 14, 2003 03:46am | #18

            Missed one point -

            I'm in central Illinois. We're a bit cold here for a heat pump to work effectively.A midget fortune-teller who escapes from prison is a small medium at large.

          8. HammerHarry | Nov 14, 2003 04:05am | #19

            HA!!!! Air to air heat pumps are all over here, and I'm north of Piffin by a good 8 hr drive.  The crossover is something like -15 deg C.

          9. User avater
            BossHog | Nov 14, 2003 04:36am | #21

            "The crossover is something like -15 deg C."

            Is that an AVERAGE outside temp, or the MINIMUM expected? We've definitely been way down below that. I've seen it at -15°F here.A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.

          10. HammerHarry | Nov 15, 2003 05:43am | #35

            The crossover is the temp at which it ceases to be useful.  Around here, it'll hit -30 quite a bit in Jan/Feb, so during those times, the backup electric coil kicks in.  Of course, you don't have to use electric as a backup heat source.

          11. fortdh | Nov 18, 2003 06:21am | #45

            Boss Hog, Parents had steam heated home from '55 to about '94. House had been built by a plumber in '38, and had some nice features. The nat gas boiler was huge, about 4'x5' footprint, plus the asbestos wraped pipes.

            Dad knew industrial boilers, and his WWII destroyer was boiler/electric drive, so he maintained ours. Believe he used a product called Borgano (spelling?) to flush it periodically. The dark rusty water was then forced out by clean tap water. The sight glass would then be very clear.

            The radiators were recessed into the walls, and had a damper door. Some had two pipes because they were in series for the same room. That meant that the second unit only got hot during long run times. I think we had excessive air in the system, because the heating was erratic. Also, with one thermostat on first floor for the whole house, it got satisfied before I got heat in my bedroom, sometimes. I think the many years of operation calcified some of the air vents. Flushing only affected the boiler and lower water lines, not the steam runs from basement to top floor.

            During the '90's, he had some steam lines begin to leak, (rusty stains) when the system was in use, and only a complete opening of the plaster walls and ceilings would give access for pipe changeout.

            The house was sold,(dad had to go into assisted living) and I talked with the new owner. They put a hip roof on the flat tar/gravel

            built-up we had, and added central air systems for the up and down floors. They also sheet rocked the interior to get in some insulation.

            (House was brick, hollow 4 chamber red tile, and plaster; never hit anything but tile when putting up curtain rods.)

            They went with heat pump up stairs, and gas A/C forced air in the basement for the 1st floor. I think they were wise and thousands of dollars ahead to get away from that 60 year old system, especially to get A/C anyway, in Birmingham, Ala.

            If you go to a new system, I would consider a gas Polaris 94% eff water heater for both domestic HW and heat source, and forced air with water coil heat exchanger in the air handler, or radiant floor heat, or a combination of the two.

            The correct size WH would handle both systems easily, and be less costly to operate than heat pumps. I live in Richmond, and greatly reduced heating costs when I modified our down unit with hot water heat. Now, the heat pump is back-up only, and A/C in summer.

            Since I only use the blower and a small water pump for heat, my generator will power the system during power failures. I couldn't do that with a 5kw gen on heat pump.(Also like the 100 + hot air vs 85 deg HP air)

            I like the air circulation of forced air, and use high capture rate (MERV 8 or higher) filters in all return air grilles.I don't filter at the air handler. Would rather catch the dust in larger surface area filter grilles (lower air velocity), and keep duct work clean from day one. Wife was first to notice cleaner furniture when we converted all returns to filter grilles with pleated filters. I know this is long, but wanted you to have the info while in the decision mode. PaulEnergy Consultant and author of Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home

          12. zsmitty7 | Nov 14, 2003 04:14am | #20

            I have a hot water system and love it.  The boiler is about 50yrs old and working well.  The main thing I need to work on is insulation and weatherproofing the house.

            As for the wet/dry issue:  A steam or hot water system is not necessarily "wet" or moist, it's just not dry.  I guess if the absence of dry is wet, then it's wet-but not really.  I hope that made sense.

        2. TLRice | Dec 03, 2003 08:53pm | #48

          Norm, you said "The thing about steam heat is that:

          - the air in the house will tend to be less dry in the winter (healthier) ..."

          Please explain to me, if you could, how a properly operating heating system of any type (w/o intentional humidification) changes the moisture content of the air inside a space differently than any other. The simple fact is that air that passes through a furnace HX has the same amount of moisture that it had when it entered the furnace. Same thing happens when air "enters" a radiant/convective heating element like a radiator, baseboard or ftc. Tempereature goes up, water mass stays the same. A few things affect moisture in a conditioned space during the heating season (w/o intentional humidification): the moisture content of the outside air, air infiltration and/or exhaust rate(s), the stored moisture "mass" of the building and moisture sources inside the building (respiration, showers, cooking, etc.).

          I have yet to have anyone who makes such statements (including WHW!) to provide a technically competent answer for the "dry air" theory. I like hyrdonic and steam heating systems, but the "less dry" benefit is, appearantly, only a myth.

          1. NormKerr | Dec 03, 2003 09:15pm | #49

            forced air systems tend to dry the air out because it is heated inside the burner (where the flame is somewhere around 400F or more).

            steam systems only go up to 212F (more or less) at the surface of the radiator (the only place where the room air and the heating system meet).

            that is what was on my mind when I made the statement.

            Norm

          2. HammerHarry | Dec 04, 2003 03:02am | #59

            You're saying that combustion takes place inside the indoor air stream?  That's an interesting furnace, I've never had one like that.  Must make the CO levels quite high, too.

            And, you're also assuming all forced air systems use combustion; what about air to air heat pump systems?  Your broad brush has missed a lot of details.  And I think you're missing the difference between humidity and relative humidity.

          3. NormKerr | Dec 03, 2003 09:17pm | #50

            oops, I forgot to refer to the fact that heating up the air changes its humidity and that it is my understanding that in forced air heaters room air moisture is heated "out" and blown up the chimney.

          4. TLRice | Dec 03, 2003 09:50pm | #51

            Norm,

            "I forgot to refer to the fact that heating up the air changes its humidity and that it is my understanding that in forced air heaters room air moisture is heated "out" and blown up the chimney"

            I appreciate your honest answers.

            True, when air is heated, the Relative Humitidy (RH) changes, but not the Humidity Ratio or Specific Humidy (SH). The amount of moisture contained within the air remains unchanged, if heated by a closed system.

            The "room air" in a furnace is completey separated from the fuel/air mixture, and hot combustion products produced to generate heat in a furnace. If a furnace heat exchanger (HX) was to leak, it would add moisture (and carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and various nitric-oxide compounds) to the room air. The only things that goes "up the chimney" are excess air, products of combustion and maybe some unburned fuel. Same as a boiler.

            I am a fan of hydronics. I am also a fan of steam heating. But unless these systems are leaking, all other factors being equal, the moisture content of the space is not different from that heated by oil/gas forced air. It is much easier to add humidity to a forced air system than to a hydronic or steam system, should you so desire. BTW, ideal moisture in conditioned spaces for comfort and health is between 30 to 50% RH.

            Tim

          5. User avater
            BossHog | Dec 03, 2003 10:02pm | #53

            "...it is my understanding that in forced air heaters room air moisture is heated "out" and blown up the chimney....

            The moisture can't be "heated out" - It stays in the air. No air is exchanged in the furnace.Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves and, under a just God, cannot long retain it. [Abraham Lincoln]

          6. NormKerr | Dec 05, 2003 08:45pm | #62

            You know, I think you guys are right, I did not get my science right in my statements before.

            However, I still think that forced air heat provides a more drying environment for people than radiant (either hot water or steam) because of the fact that blown warm air tends to dry out your skin by increasing the evaporative rate of your own perspiration.

            Radiant heat warms objects directly, without warming the air as much (you can feel warmth even when the air is still cool), and is likely a more efficient way to transmit the heat into humans than blowing warm air over them.

            On reflection, I guess that this was more what I should have been focusing on in my earlier reply, rather than trying to speculate about the earth science and relative humidity.

            Even with steam, I use a humidifier in my house. It is just a small 'table top' model in the living room and it 'does' the whole house for me.

            Norm

          7. TLRice | Dec 08, 2003 06:18pm | #63

            Norm,

            You should of quit while you were behind. Remember the first rule of holes: "when you're in one, quit diggin'".

            You assume that people in a forced air heated environment are directly subjected to noticebly moving air(only true in poorly installed/designed systems), that low temperature water based systems are "radiant" (they are in fact largely convective, high temp systems with baseboards and/or radiator/convectors are more "radiant" than low temp systems, but still very much convective) and that the dryness is only a perceived condition. All of which I would argue are not completely acurate. The fact that you require a humidifier with your "wet" heating system contradicts your assertions.

            A good forced air system is quite and draft free, unnoticeable by the occupants, especially during the heating season (slightly noticeable in the coolingseason). The fact is that any interior environment in an area with an extended heating season, will become very dry unless moisture is added.

            Tim

          8. User avater
            BossHog | Dec 16, 2003 05:43am | #64

            Finally got back and got some more pics.

            The pic called "Boiler Pump" shows that it's hot water heat - Not steam as I first thought.

            The second one called "Boiler Front" shows the "Crane" brand name, and a gauge on the front.If there is a tourist season, why can't we shoot them?

          9. MojoMan | Dec 03, 2003 09:59pm | #52

            Steam heat systems are open. That is, water is boiled in the boiler (Figures, huh?) and the steam rises through the pipes to the radiators. As the gases (Air and water vapor) in the pipes and radiators expand as they are heated, air and vapor escapes through open valves on every radiator. (Otherwise the heat would never get to the radiators and the system would explode.)  When the radiator valves get hot enough, they close. The water vapor pushed out of these valves is what contributes to the humidity in the house.

            Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

          10. TLRice | Dec 03, 2003 10:05pm | #54

            Good point on the steam system. My mistake for lumping steam together with hot water, closed systems. So, excepting steam systems, same question applies.

          11. DaveRicheson | Dec 03, 2003 10:38pm | #55

            Explain that open valve system to me.

            I have operated and worked on low and high pressure commercial steam heating boilers for over 18 years. Our systems are two pipe parallel sytems. Any steam escaping from a radiator valve means the system must operator more to make up for the pressure loss. Make up water is also needed to replace the water vapor lost. System operation cost goes up= bad for business.

            Now if residential steam boilers do dump staem vapor into the building envelope, I think there would be an issue with system efficiency and possible health/mold potential.

            What am I missing?

            Dave

          12. MojoMan | Dec 04, 2003 02:26am | #57

            My residential system is single-pipe. Each radiator has its own pipe. The steam rises and condensate flows back through the same pipe to the basement. The valves are little chromed cylinders on the end of each radiator. When cool, they are open. When steam hits them, the heat up and snap shut. Not much steam escapes, but air does as the steam displaces it. Older boilers had to be filled periodically, but my new one(About 8 year-old Weil-McLain) has an automatic fill. (The pipes and radiators date mostly from about 1929.)

            Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

          13. jmo2 | Dec 04, 2003 11:09pm | #61

            Mojo--

            I'm with you on this one.  We have same brand of boiler (Weil-McLann) with the same characteristics.  I lived in hot water for 5 years (that was...okay.  It was a condo and I View Imagecouldn't adjust the temps.  In hot water systems, valves have to be ALL the way on OR off.  We lived with our windows open a lot in the winter.)

            I lived with my in-laws at the end of the winter season in March and April 2003.  They have forced air and I have never been so miserable in my life.  My skin was so dry and scaly and itchy.  My sinuses went beserk!

            Now with our steam heat (one pipe system), it is back to (ahhhh!) no dry skin for me.  Plus, warm is WARM.  Because even the smallest increase in humidity will keep the skin warmer EVEN in the SAME temperature!  Why?  Less evaporation of moisture from the skin.  If the air is dryer than you, the air is going to take moisture from your skin and cool you down. 

          14. User avater
            rjw | Dec 04, 2003 02:28am | #58

            Tim,

            can't moving air around the house create neg and pos pressure zones and increase air infiltration?

            _______________________

            Tool Donations Sought

            I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in January (we hope) and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.

          15. TLRice | Dec 04, 2003 05:39pm | #60

            Moving air is, by physical necessity, propelled by differential pressure. However, unless a severe imbalance exists, the static difference between indoors and outdoors is negligible due to the operation of forced air systems as might be installed in a residence. There would be pressure differences within the envelope, say from the bedrooms with only supplies and a common, hallway return. The only exceptions I can think of would be the use of "panned" joist space as a return duct, that has the rim or box joist as a barrier or a system with a single return located near an exterior door. A very tight home without sufficient makeup air and plenty of exhaust can become negative from time to time. In the absense of poor installations, most air infiltration is caused by wind pressure. High on the windward side, low on the leeward side. A well constructed home with attention to the issue will have air infiltration of less than 0.25 air changes per hour (ACH). For heating, typically rooms with north and west exposures get a little extra heat to account for this.

            Tim

  4. MojoMan | Nov 13, 2003 09:10pm | #9

    Is this a single-pipe steam system with no returns? If it has returns, hot water heat might be an option, certainly better than hot air.

    I have single-pipe steam heat in my 70+ year-old house and am learning to live with, and even like, it.  Everything has to be pitched so condensed water flows back to the boiler. All the radiator valves need to be working; these are easy to change. All little steam leaks need to be fixed.

    I think the biggest draw-back is the time it takes for the heat to come up. Starting from a cold boiler, it can take nearly an hour for everything to heat up, so forget about "taking the chill off." But in colder weather when the system is cycling on and off more frequently, it works well. I use an automatic thermostat with manual tweaking.

    I saw a reference (I think here on BT) to a book "The Lost Art of Steam Heat," but never actually read it.

    Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

    1. User avater
      BossHog | Nov 13, 2003 09:49pm | #10

      "Is this a single-pipe steam system with no returns? "

      Yup.A retired astronaut opened an unsuccessful restaurant on the moon. The food was great, but there just was no atmosphere.

  5. User avater
    rjw | Nov 14, 2003 12:03am | #14

    BH - I've only lived in one hose with steam and that was awhile ago.  The following is mainly book learnin' and is FWIW

    A key feature to a well working steam heat system is the operation of the "steam valves" on the side of the radiators - the silver "tube" dudes.

    The are supposed to be open when the system is cool.  As steam rises, they let the cool air in the system out, so the steam can rise into the radiator.  As the steam arrives and warms the radiator, the valves close to stop the flow of steam into that radiator.

    I don't have any answers about efficiency, but suspect that they can't use the techniques hot air heat uses to get the very high efficiencies, but it is my understanding that forced air had a lot of catching up to do.

    I have read that so long as those valves are regularly maintained, which they usually aren't, a steam system will operate quite well.

    _______________________

    Albert Einstein said it best:

    “Problems,” he said, “cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them.”

    Your mileage may vary ....

    1. daddoo | Nov 14, 2003 07:19am | #22

      How many ways do you know to boil water?

      Any inefficiency results in the loss of heat, into the basement, which heats the house anyway.

      Keep the radiators, and switch to hot water.When all else fails, use duct tape!

      1. rich1 | Nov 14, 2003 07:38am | #23

        Boss;pleaaaaassseeee, keep that system.

        I just saw the picture over at the wall.Zoned hot water is the best heat you will ever find.

        (It's a hot water boiler,not a steam boiler)

        At the very least, live with it for one winter before you decide to rip it out. If you want to gain efficiency, install a tekmar reset control. It will match the supply temps to the outdoor temp. Check the the setting on the boiler control.I'll bet it's set at 180.When it's mild outside all you need is about 140. For every 3 degrees you drop your boiler temp you save 1% on your fuel bill.Put  your money into insulation and windows and I'd be suprised if that boiler wasn't twice as large as needed.

        1. BungalowJeff | Nov 14, 2003 08:35am | #24

          Boss,

          To get back to your original question. New boilers are more efficient, but not enough to make replacing an old boiler that is working well when the unit and immediate piping (Hartford Loop) is balanced with the system. This is especially true with one-pipe systems. My house is 100 years old, however the gas boiler was installed in 1960 replacing the oil-converted coal furnace (I have the actual hand calcs by the HVAC guy). The previous owners had no idea about maintenance, however after a ton of flushing; cleaned radiator outlets; some radiator slope adjustments for worn floors, etc.; and one or two radiators disconnected and cleaned out; the system is quiet, and warm. You can't heat up undies on a winter morning over a forced air vent....that's not a mistake, it's rustic

        2. User avater
          BossHog | Nov 14, 2003 03:37pm | #25

          How do you know it's hot water instead of steam? I thought hot water systems always had 2 pipes, which led me to believe it was steam.

          First off, we're nowhere NEAR buying the house yet. Lots of hoops to jump through still, and we're not even sure we WANT to buy the house. (Although I admit that I like it)

          Maybe this is more than you want to know, but....

          The folks that live in this house say they like our "spec house from hell". But they can't buy it until they sell theirs. So on a whim, we went to look at their house to see if it suited us. We figured if we bought their house, they could buy ours. (The realtor said she'd never attempted anything like this before)

          So that's why we're lookin' at it. If we do end up buying the house, we'll likely have to live with things as they are for a year or 2 before we could change anything.If your parents didn't have children, chances are you won't either.

          1. BungalowJeff | Nov 14, 2003 05:04pm | #26

            Hot water is a two-pipe system (for obvious reasons), however there are one-pipe and two-pipe steam systems....that's not a mistake, it's rustic

          2. User avater
            BossHog | Nov 14, 2003 05:52pm | #28

            "Hot water is a two-pipe system (for obvious reasons), however there are one-pipe and two-pipe steam systems."

            Thsi system appears to me to only have ONE pipe to each radiator. (Unless I totally missed something when I was there)

            Here's a pic of a radiator in the entry. It appears to only have one pipe.

            View Image

            Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose.

          3. User avater
            rjw | Nov 14, 2003 10:48pm | #31

            BH - can't tell from the pic.  Hot water radiators have a little bleeder valve (about the sizew of a tire valve) at one end on the top of the radiatror - steam systems have the steam valve on one end about 1/2 way up.

            I've never seen a 1 pipe hot water system but have heard rumors ....

            _______________________

            Albert Einstein said it best:

            “Problems,” he said, “cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them.”

            Your mileage may vary ....

          4. BungalowJeff | Nov 15, 2003 08:24am | #36

            That's a steam radiator. It is quite large for a foyer, I wonder if it is meant to warm the hall and stairs, etc.? If you buy the house you can always try the steam system. Who knows, maybe you'll be a convert? It is also true that many systems were just poorly designed, although they tended to be over designed in 100-year old houses  because victorians thought open windows were healthy, even in winter.

            I hated forced air heat when I had it, although it was a old, poorly designed system. Modern forced air can be balanced and is no longer a loud blast to wake you up every hour and fifteen minutes through the night. Also, the humidifiers and filters are much better. I worked with a fellow who seemed to have a cold all winter. I asked and he had one of the old humidifiers on his forced air system that was basically an open tray of water growing mold.

            You know, that is a very nice house, but it just struck me odd thinking of you living in a house without trusses.

            ...that's not a mistake, it's rustic

            Edited 11/15/2003 12:26:27 AM ET by Bungalow Jeff

          5. User avater
            BossHog | Nov 15, 2003 03:57pm | #38

            "That's a steam radiator. It is quite large for a foyer, I wonder if it is meant to warm the hall and stairs, etc.?"

            The foyer is quite large, and the stairs take off from there.

            "You know, that is a very nice house, but it just struck me odd thinking of you living in a house without trusses."

            The thought had never occured to me. But I like old houses too.

            Maybe this would make you feel better: If we buy the house, there's no garage. (Just an old broken-down carriage house that needs torn down) I figured I would go out in back and build a new carriage house that we could use for a garage. And, of course, I'd use attic trusses......................(-:She was engaged to a boyfriend with a wooden leg but broke it off.

          6. User avater
            rjw | Nov 15, 2003 09:55pm | #39

            >>That's a steam radiator.

            Not arguing here, just wondering how you can tell from the pic - I've always used the bleeder type to determine.

            Is it the valve? The configuration?

            _______________________

            Albert Einstein said it best:

            “Problems,” he said, “cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them.”

            Your mileage may vary ....

          7. User avater
            mmoogie | Nov 15, 2003 10:14pm | #40

            Jeff,

            Those radiators look identical to the ones in my parents house, which are hot water.

            I don't know how you can say from that picture if it's steam or water when you can't see the bleeder or if there is a pipe exiting the other end of the radiator.

            Steve

          8. BungalowJeff | Nov 16, 2003 08:28pm | #41

            Steam radiators from that house's era have a definite fin shape. The different fin shapes are better suited to each type, however it's not a hard rule. For some reason, an art deco hot water radiator was converted for use in my 1901 kitchen.

            Boss,

            The thought of a new garage with trusses somehow makes it all seem better!...that's not a mistake, it's rustic

          9. User avater
            BossHog | Nov 17, 2003 03:40am | #42

            "The thought of a new garage with trusses somehow makes it all seem better!"

            OH, God, yes!

            Of course - It would be a BIG garage. I'm thinking about 28X40 or so. Gotta get both cars in, as well as the truck and tractor.

            Do ya think mI could make a 28X40 garage look like a quaint little carriage house ???Dijon vu - the same mustard as before.

          10. adroit1 | Nov 17, 2003 04:34am | #43

            We just replaced our 40 year old coal converted steam boiler with a Weil Mclain and a 65 gal hot water storage tank off the boiler coil.  Old system was 79% efficient, new 85%.  Old boiler grossly over sized.  New one little over sized to accommodate future addition with forced hot water as steam systems are tied to the laws of physics best not messed too much with.  We kept all the original radiators and also replaced all the air vents which before never made a noise, now they hiss and pop closed when operating (properly).  It is very important not to cover or obstruct the radiators WITH ANYTHING as this decreases air flow.  All pipes in the basement were insulated (bare before) which has made all the difference in steam delivery.  Now the boiler cycles to steam pressure (2 lbs.) till the new 7 day 4 event programmable thermostat reaches temp.  The system shuts off as the system needs no more than 2 lbs. steam for heat, then it kicks back on.  We went with our oil delivery company for the install.  They cost a bit more but covered ALL the bases.  We are budgeted for $200 a month year round from the previous boiler calculations, but so far have had two deliveries (93 and 69 gallons) based on those previous boiler calculations which usually would have been deliveries of 175 to 200 gallons.  Had the setup since July, and we'll see what Maine has in store for winter this year and how things pan out.

          11. BungalowJeff | Nov 17, 2003 08:31am | #44

            You could build a modern day "Garlow". Garages with full second story guest quarters often built first for a young couple to live in while the new home was being built. They matched the trim of the house and were a good test for final finish materials and colors. And trusses would be a natural......that's not a mistake, it's rustic

          12. fortdh | Nov 18, 2003 06:43am | #46

            Boss, one other thing: if you go with forced air, I recommend variable speed air handlers. They can operate all year for very low cost, and ramp up in speed when cooling or heating. Mine runs at 50% for first 1-1/2 min when going into heat or cool mode, and the next 7 min are at 80%. We can not hear the air at low speed, and only barely at 80%. Most of the time, it never reaches 100% speed, only very hot or cold days. We leave it it "fan on" most of the year to get constant filtering and air circulation. PaulEnergy Consultant and author of Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home

          13. reganva | Nov 18, 2003 07:22am | #47

            If I were considering buying a house with steam again, I would insist on sitting there for an hour while it warmed up from cold to full heat.  I've lived in two houses with steam - its the noisiest damn thing ever.  The radiators hiss, the pipes bang like someone's in the basement with a sledgehammer.  I've heard that line about fixing the pitch, getting a good steam man.  I talked to plenty of steam experts, they all knew what was wrong, but they never could fix it.  Then one day, at the second place, an asbestos wrapped pipe in the basement split open at a joint and I had a steam room down there.   So I bit the bullet and had it all ripped out and replaced with forced air.  I never have regretted that move.  Sorry, but my vote is:  steam should go the way of knob and tube wiring and galvanized pipes.

            It was pretty cool to put my bath towel over the radiator while I was in the shower, but a couple of times I backed up to radiator while drying off and got my #### char-broiled.  I'm not sure I'd want to have my curious one year old in a house with steam radiators.

          14. NormKerr | Nov 14, 2003 05:06pm | #27

            Your original question about efficiency is too complicated to just answer simply, here are my thoughts:

            - an old boiler (or furnace) will not be as efficent as a modern one, due to improvements in technology and fuel efficiency.

            - replacing an old one, even one that is not real efficient is expensive and SOMETIMES the pay back is so long that it can be justified to just leave it alone until something wears out (this all depends on what is being spent each month vs. the replacement cost, of course).

            - comparing heating sources is meaningless until the condition of the building envelope is also considered: is the attic floor/living space ceiling membrane COMPLETELY sealed against air leak? (the warm air will escape wasting energy). It should be completely sealed (all penetrations, including stud wall bays, access stair doors, wiring penetrations, and so on), and then well insulated (a thick blanket of cellulouse or spray foam will further help to seal in the warm, rising air while it insulates. Then the basement should be sealed up all around the perimeter (rim joist leaks at the foundation usually have lots of gaps and waste lots of heat in old houses).

            - Was all of the asbestous insulation removed from the steam pipes but never replaced? Uninsulated steam pipes will waste lots of the heat energy in the basement space, which, while it will gradually warm up the home above will also go into the basement walls and floor rather than into the bedroom and living space above like it was intended to. The pipes were meant to be well insulated.

            - AFTER catching up those items, THEN the cost / benefit discussion makes sense. Be sure to also confirm what someone you compare with is paying for their gas too, since that varies greatly around the country adding confusion to discussions about 'efficiency of different heating methods'.

            Remember, you can do whatever you want to your own house, that is your right. BUT that house has existed far longer than you have, and will hopefully last far longer than you or I will too. Ripping out old stuff like outmoded wiring and plumbing is one thing, ripping out perfectly good plaster and fine wood work is quite another. I think that a well installed, well maintained steam/hotwater heating system leans more to the later than to the former.

            Do keep us posted on your "house swap" with the other family, very interesting.

            Norm

          15. User avater
            BossHog | Nov 14, 2003 06:27pm | #29

            "replacing an old one, even one that is not real efficient is expensive and SOMETIMES the pay back is so long that it can be justified to just leave it alone until something wears out"

            Well, I figure we need to add AC anyway. The HVAC guy I talked to said it would cost roughly $10,000 to add AC, and about $12,000 to add both heat and AC. Not much difference.

            "comparing heating sources is meaningless until the condition of the building envelope is also considered"

            Seems to me you have to heat the house either way - Well insulated or not. Since this has a finished walkup attic, I have no idea if it's well insulated or not. I suspect it has some, but not a whole bunch.

            "Was all of the asbestous insulation removed from the steam pipes but never replaced?"

            Nope - It's still there.

            "Ripping out old stuff like outmoded wiring and plumbing is one thing, ripping out perfectly good plaster and fine wood work is quite another."

            That's pretty subjective. To me, it makes sense to replace an inefficient heating system with a newer one.

            Get the facts first. You can distort them later.

          16. johnharkins | Nov 14, 2003 08:26pm | #30

            Boss Hog  you're going to get more responses from those more knowledgable

            but the one pipe or two question  those big beautiful cast iron babies have a supply side and a "return" side    that return can go on to the next radiator in a series or the return feeds into a line returning to your boiler to get the water back up to temperature to the supply side again

            can't tell you enough how great that system might be   the only thing close and probably better would be a well run hydronic system but that would equate to the price of a new truck at this juncture  don't be afraid of that system   and I hope it does have the return pipes      carry on  John

          17. rich1 | Nov 15, 2003 03:07am | #33

            Just went back to the wall to look at the boiler. That sure looks like a circ pump on the return line.Was there a sight glass on the side of the boiler?Maybe whw has seen a steamer like that.

            And you can have a one pipe hat water system if you have monoflow tees. But your rads need to have two pipes.

            Edited 11/14/2003 7:11:32 PM ET by rich1

  6. Wet_Head | Nov 14, 2003 10:54pm | #32

    Steam boilers are far more efficient now than 50 years ago.  Anyone saying different is full of BS.

    The question is... do you like steam heat?

     

    1. DaveRicheson | Nov 15, 2003 03:15am | #34

      WHW, I have never worked on residential steam heat boilers, but have many years experience on low and high pressure commercial boilers of that vintage. That said, I whole heartedly agree with you.

      Boss, what is the fuel source, gas or oil? What type of boiler, high or low pressure? What is the name plate BTU output (on one that old it may be listed in horse power...really)? Old fire tube boilers that have not been maintained for years need to be inspected by qualified tech. Calcification and mineral deposits in a boiler decrease it efficentcy almost exponentially. Same thing with the radiators. Cleaning either is expensive.

      Dave

      1. User avater
        BossHog | Nov 15, 2003 03:53pm | #37

        "Boss, what is the fuel source, gas or oil? What type of boiler, high or low pressure? etc."

        The fuel source is natural gas. I only gave the heating system a quick lookover when I was there so I can't really answer your other questions. (The realtor furnished the pics)

        We're still trying to figure out if we want the house or not. If we go back and look again I'll get some more info.In democracy your vote counts. In feudalism your count votes.

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