Hello Folks,
I was planning on following the suggestions of both Boise-Cascade and Carolina Builders (now Stock) for removing a load-bearing wall (LBW) in my basement framed out with 2x6s. The LBW supports six (6) Boise-Cascade I-Joists running the length of two rooms that combined span 26’10”, with the wall at 12’3″ into the span.
Original idea was to recess two 2×12 LVLs into the joist system running perpendicular to the joists and use hangers to support the now 12′ and 14’6″ segmented spans. The composite LVL beam would be supported on either end by 2×6 columns. This idea was to escape running the LVL beam underneath the joists, which would cost me precious headroom needed for the Home Theater being framed in this basement.
Now, I am wondering about using a steel H-beam and run it underneath the joists. Although they would cost me some headroom, it shouldn’t be anywhere near 12″ (6″ maybe?). Also, the concern for an increase in dead-load for the beam solution bewilders me as steel is a lot heavier than LVL. Plus, supporting the H-beam is another concern as lollies vs. 4×4/6×6 wood column approach.
Yes, I am trying to do this as inexpensively as possible. This is intended as a DIY project, and spending $500-1000 for an engineer to say ‘yes’ and 3-5X the LVL costs to implement H-beaming makes me wonder. Its easy enough to order LVLs, but another to consider the H-beam.
Advice?
Replies
You could put a steel I-beam between the joist ends rather than under them, just as you planned with the two LVL's. A W12 by something I-beam would be about the same size and shape as the pair of LVL's, and probably cost about $200 - 300. Since your contractor neighbor is doing the same thing, perhaps he can advise you better, and the two of you could split the engineering fee, as you're both doing the same thing.
-- J.S.
H-beam, X-beam, whatever. Save the money on an engineer. No engineer can design with your exotic steel shapes, anyway. Why not support the rafters, cut the ends, put up the lvl's and add joist hangers? No headroom problem, no steel, and no steel columns....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
This is exactly the initial proposal, Jeff. Glad you liked it.
Actually, my neighbor is only planning on helping me. He had his basement done a year ago, about the same time he converted one of the rooms into a garage for his ATVs (he also helped another neighbor do this).
> Actually, my neighbor is only planning on helping me. He had his basement done a year ago,
So, do exactly what he did, since the structures are identical.
-- J.S.
A W12 steel beam is the minimum you need with this span but the weight per foot will be high. If you can go with a 14" beam you can cut the weight down to ease installation. If you go with a steel beam have 9/16" nailer holes put in the web to attach 2X framing to either side with 1/2" carriage bolts and attach floor joists to these with hangers. Hope this helps.
Dana
I'm a little confused, here.
"A W12 steel beam is the minimum you need with this span but the weight per foot will be high." Compared to the LVL solution?
"If you can go with a 14" beam you can cut the weight down to ease installation." 14" Beam, I'm lost on this one. Are you talking a 14" tall steel beam, or did you mean 14' long beam?
My point here is a 12" beam spanning this distance has to have a higher weight per foot so's to not deflect too much. If you can get away with a 14" high beam you have increased the effective area without adding weight thus installation might be easier. Not having to rent a crane, etc. I'm not sure where you are located, but most lumberyards can quote you a price to supply this beam sized to your project. Most of the time they will give you several choices of sizes depending on if you want max. headroom and high weight or can use a deeper beam and save some weight. Beams are sized by height ( 12"), the second number is pounds per foot. Thus a W12x26 ( popular garage beam) is 12" high and weighs 26# per foot. Confusing, huh?
Dana
Confusing? Yes! Why would anyone seeking the smallest profile wish to use a solution in which the 'beam' of choice is the most pronounced in profile form. The original option was to recess two (2) LVL wood beam (2x12-13.5'L) perpendicular, into the 2x12 Boise-Cascade 2x12 I-Joist system.
This solution would present a profile with an even definition--it would not protrude downward and reduce headroom for the room. But, would cut each of the six (6) 27' long I-Joists into 12'6" and 14'6" approximate lengths for the LVLs to run perpendicular to the joist runs and use hanger to tie the joists onto the LVLs.
The suggestion, of my brother in-law, was to consider a steel H-beam instead of cutting the I-Joists. He asserted that this would be about 6" high steel beam, and would thus minimize headroom consumption if installed below the joists. Someone, on the side and in this forum, also suggested a combination of the two ideas of recessing a steel beam instead of recessing LVLs.
Running a steel beam underneath the joists would only be acceptable if the height of that steel beam was 6" of less. Otherwise, I would greatly simplify the entire task and just run the LVLs underneath the joists (and save my wallet from the steel demons).
I don't see the steel costing more.
Yes, the material is more than two lvl's, but the process is so much simpler-you won't need all the bracing, cutting the I-joists, nailing hangers. Plus you won't have to worry as much about squeeks.
I think the suggestions for 12 and 14" steel are bigtime overkill, though unless I missed it, I don't remember you saying what load there is above this floor. If you're only dealing with 6 total I-Joists, that's a maximum of 12 feet if they are on 24" centers. A 14" steel beam spanning 12 feet? Plus, I'm betting those I-Joists aren't on 24" centers either.
What am I missing here?
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/wanmangr/lst?.dir=/&.src=ph&.view=t
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/wanmangr/vwp?.dir=/Basement+Activities&.dnm=Cross-Section.jpg&.src=ph&.view=t&.hires=t
Edited 4/12/2002 10:26:40 AM ET by kartman0
Nice way to show what you're doing. Looks fairly simple, guess those I-joists are on 24" centers.
So what's above this? Are any loads being transmitted to the load bearing wall? Hot tubs? Safes? Any loads in that span at all?
To help with either beam...steel or wood....last steel beam we put in....about 30' long....we rented a lift to hoist her up. Don't know the techinical term....just called it the beam jack...but it was just an oversized cabinet lift......had back wheels....2 extended outrigger legs......and a forklift deal on the front.....which could go almost flush down....which is how we loaded it.....then cranked up tp saw horse level.....set down the beam....flipped the front end piece ove....so it was almost flush at the top...and raised the beam.
The beam was a retrofit hidden into a finished ceiling. That's where we found the lift would get ALMOST flush! Bring her down and added a few 2x10 on the arms.....and the extra height go us up into the ceiling.
The crank was a hand/arm worked ratchet. Think cranking the boat onto the trailer. Went up and down real easy. Think it ran just a few hunderd dollars for the whole day. Well worth it.....Two guys could maueuver pretty safely a few inches one way or another. I'd chack a rental yard. Not gonna do another with out one.
Big beams can be moved pretty easily when ya find the pivot point. My buddy Joe got this big one from the front of the house...around back...up on the deck...and positioned at the entry point all by himself and the cut up round columns we were replacing from the front entry! Jeff * Jeff J. Buck/ Buck Construction/ Pittsburgh, PA *
2nd Generation Buck Const, 3rd generation Craftsman
Come-alongs and C-clamps are also handy for single handed steel schlepping.
-- J.S.
Jeff: Sounds like what my wife & I rented to lift a bunch of steel when we did our house and steel "Butler" Bldg. They called it a Genie lift here in Etlanner. Worked great. We lifted a coupla multi-hundred lb WF beams and placed them slicker than a dipped eel.
Also - try moving those suckers like the Pharoahs moved heavy stuff - a coupla round cedar fence posts. Get something up on a roller, and weight no longer matters - especially if you keep the roller close to the CG and replace it frequently.
Don't know how it is where any of you are, but here in Atlanta where I bought my beams, you had to have an engineer's seal and signature on the design to buy steel beams. Not too bad an idea, based on the discussion so far.
DonDon Reinhard - The GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Genie Lift I think it was! Jeff * Jeff J. Buck/ Buck Construction/ Pittsburgh, PA *
2nd Generation Buck Const, 3rd generation Craftsman
The device is called a "Genie lift" and they're great for setting lams, logs, timbers, etc. I think they have a lift capacity of about 600 lbs. Out here (Oregon) they rent for about $80 day.
On a flat floor they can be maneuvered with load pretty easily.
Caution!! If you rent one make sure the braking system and cables are in good shape before you take it out!
MD, images #3 and #5 will show small sections of leftover I-Joists that were installed on the top-plate of the load-bearing wall coming down. I think they are meant to assist in supporting 'cold chases' above them.
What is directly above these two basement rooms are a near-mirror floorplan for the formal living and dining rooms. There is not a complete wall that separates the formal living and dining rooms, but instead there is a 10' wide opening with boxed columns on either side supporting a boxed in beam (supposedly to support the I-Joists for the second floor.
In the formal living & dining rooms are a 4-chair dining room table (metal/glass) and a treadmill. Nothing else. I plan on moving the treadmill out during the construction as well as the dining room table. The dead/live loads are minimal, actually, which I am looking at favorably.
Directly above the formal living & dining rooms on the second floor is the master bedroom, bathroom, and walk-in closet. The dividing wall separating the master bedroom from the master bath/closet is not alinged with the boxed beam that separates the formals on the first floor or the load-bearing wall in the basement.
Go with the steel, I have a LVL supporting the bonus room over my garage, It's 16" deep by 3 1/8" wide and my bonus room shakes. As far as a structural engineer is concerned, it seems to me one would be glad to answer your question over the telephone if you carefully describe your situation, (and give the floor loading per square foot per your local code) and he/she would size the beam for you free of charge.
A structural engineer is not going to design a beam for someone over the phone for free. If the LVL is designed correctly, it will serve as well as any steel beam in this instance. The use of a steel beam was clarified that it would be under the joists and only if it were 6" or less for headroom purposes. A 6" steel beam will not work, so LVL's are the way to go....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Hmm, Let's see, I spent six years in school and then worked for two years prior to taking the state license exam. I passed the structural engineers exam and now I will will design a beam over the telephone for some person who does not have a clue about structural engineering or (it seems) construction (I mean that in a good way) for free when he will turn around and sue me when his floor does not meet his expectations (i.e. bounces since he did not install blocking, sags because the beam was not supported, etc..). I don't think so. If you get free info, treat it as such. FREE INFO.
You know you are probably right. I have recieved more grief over this post than it was worth. I also went to college for 6 years, received a degree from architecture school. Passed a 4 day state architectural board exam with two structural elements and a final 12 hour design charette. I've been an registered architect for 12 years. I guess I just take it for granted when I pick up the phone to call one of the four structural engineers I use and ask them something on one of my projects. Maybe I will stop giving free advice over the phone and on line.
Me Too!
Shoot, I have a college degree too! So, I'll leave out whatever my education and experience has taught me; far as I'm concerned everyone on this board can fend for themselves. Hey, if we all do that, it'll be "diy homebuilding." Good idea.
It's like someone asked you people to design them a house for free. I think all the original poster wanted was some help to decide what system to use to free up some space in a basement. I don't know a single engineer that really wants to be involved in projects this small and simple. Admit it, you know you can't make enough money to pay for your college by working out nickle and dime solutions to scenarios like this--you would look at this as a hassle, sort of like contractors getting asked to repair moldy drywall in a bathroom.
Or?
My response was directed to your comment about calling an engineer to get free advice. If an achitect that I know or friend calls for a simple beam I will help them. I will not give free design to someone I do not know. I will post on the forums (and have) giving advise. The issue is liablity for someones health, safety and welfare. A simple phone call cannot give you all of the info you need to develope a safe and effective design. The person may not realize the ramifications of there remodeling decisions. On a recent post about about replacing a bearing wall there were alot of reponses regarding the beam size needed but no one asked the question of the load path to the ground. I did. Fortunatley in this, post footings had already be installed. What a diaster if some poor homeowner installed the beams that were suggested and relied upon a 4" slab to support the point loads. Oh well, I've said enough.
Have you considered a fletch beam (alternating steep plate and composite wood laminates). If you are concerned about bounce, this should solve it. Another thought is a glue-lam that protrudes down 6" or less, and just finish the ceiling accordingly. Again, more rigidity.
BruceM