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Working on finishing a basment (no load bearing walls involved). Searched this site and found little discussion on use of steel studs. In particular, 25 ga. are easier to work with. FH had a nice article awhile back. Pretty much gave the same techniques as mfgr. brochures. Interested in first-hand experiences,,
P.S. Read the thread on vinyl siding and can asure those “purists” that steel studs do not have simulated grain. And remember they are a “recycled” product.
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Replies
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To Walter;
The installation of steel studs is pretty much as described in the brochures.
In a basement or any area where there is the likelyhood of moisture or water, dampness over the concrete slab etc. make sure that you install a vapour barrier under the steel studs and tracks.
Even with galvanizing the ends are normally exposed and therefore subject to rusting.
Most steel stud installations that I have had the occasion to open up after a few years has had major rusting at the base.
Gabe Martel GSC
Project Manager
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Used "sill sealer" foam between bottom channel and slab to provide a barrier to slab moisture. Ran a bead of adhesive on slab, laid down sill sealer, ran second bead of adhesive, laid down channel and power nailed to slab. Probably overkill but holding nicely.
Had neighbor who first attached pressure treated 2x4's to slab with 'tap cons' and then attached channels to wood. Seemed like alot of extra work.
6 mil poly under slab and have run moisture test using taped down 1'x1' poly, no signs of moisture (excessive that is).
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I have been using steel studs for 20 years, they are by far easier,straighter and less heavy then wood.
I not only use them in commercial work, but have built homes with them, remodeled homes with them, and have had great succes with a marriage of wood and steel. Good luck with your project, you'll like them.
cc
*WalterI have also used steel studs in both comercial and residential applications. I liked the idea of using the sill seal to isolate the stud from the concrete. I have seen some rust occur after twenty to twenty-five years in commercial bath applications. Over the past four years I have done three basements with metal studs and have been very happy with the results. I would insulate carefully and use a vapor barrier to eliminate as much moisture as possible from forming behind your walls. They are nice especially when you have to get them into a limited access basement. When I have to hang a wood door or trim out an opening I will screw a two by to the metal to allow for the nailing of door and trim. Finally I am still using two fifteen gauge two by six metal studs as a ramp for my utility trailer.
*cc is absolutely right. I'm a commercial contractor, but I've done residential in the past and I wouldn't use anything but steel in remodeling with non load bearing walls. I only qualify this in that I'm not sure of the techniques with bearing use of steel, but I'm sure that is easy enough to learn. I really love using 1 5/8" studs along a perimeter wall.(if not insulated) This can add up to 4" in each direction of floor space. Steel studding with sheet rock 24" o.c. is a solid wall. I can hang cabinetry from these walls, I've trimmed them with a trim nail gun(just shoot nails at angles to each other).Steel studs are the future and you better get with the program. Maybe we can save wood for better purposes, although I, myself am no tree hugger. Steel just makes good sense. I can do with steel what you do with wood much easier. I'm doing an office and I have a steel stud and drywall planter with an arch over it, and curved knee walls. Try and carry 20 or 30 studs at a time. Try and frame with wood as fast as I can frame in steel. My tools? A couple of pair of snips and a stud crimping tool. I could throw in my cut off saw, but that is for larger jobs. You can't beat steel. you need to just get used to it. Me? I had no choice. I do commercial work and it was the only practical way to go.
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I too have used both, but I find that I feel more confident with 20 Ga. I am too weak to cut these with a snips so I have to use a chop saw and screws rather than a crimping tool. But, come to think about it, I did my office building in both 22 and 20 Ga and both are still standing after ten years and both are still holding 36" steel framed 1 3/4 fire rated doors. 20 Ga might be over kill. Comment?
Further question: Do you just screw or do you screw and glue the dry wall to the studs?
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I find 25 ga. to be more than adequate. I've hung 1 3/4" solid core doors from walls framed with 2 1/2" steel stud(25 ga.) walls with 1/2" DW on both sides and found it to be very sturdy.
Steel is great, I've also torn out steel studding that is over 25 years old and the studding is not the problem, it is abuse of the drywall.
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Steel studs in a basement are great, but i found that the added expense in my area of an electrician inexperienced with them, and the costs that were extra( grommets for romex, 4x4 boxes with plaster rings, ect) are enough to make me use treated studs for a sole plate , and 2x's for studs. steel studs are great, I came from a commercial backgound.......but check on the added costs first. hanging insulation is another story................
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J.D., I've framed with both and I can say that wood is easily a faster way to frame as long as we are talking apples to apples.
Most wood framers tend to overbuild, that is why they take longer. 16" centers, double top plates, lapped top plates, etc. take up a lot of time and deliver little benifits in non-bearing situations.
Blue
*Though the use of a pressure treated wooden sill plate under the steel stud may seem to be overkill as far as moisture mitigation goes, it does provide a nailing surface for base molding.
*Agreed... My other unmentioned concern was warping and twisting of the P.T. sole plate. Ina standard 2x4 wall the vertical studs in conjunction with the top plate attached to the joists would keep the sole plate in place. With 25 ga. steel stud I might wonder what a twisting/warping sole plate might do. I don't imagine that nails (power or cut) through the sole plate into the slab would keep it from lifting. You could always attach 15" long pieces of 2x in the channel. Don't have any experience here. just worrying out loud...
*Blue, I really disagree that wood is easier, at least for me. Maybe the difference is that I'm geared for steel, but I can't think how you could do wood easier and faster than I could do steel. Even if you could keep up I have versitility on my side. You are the Man for your speed, but you are still chewing up wood that could go better else where.
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Framed my basement w/both wood and 25g steel using many of the aforementioned methods. Only problems I experienced using steel arose when attaching drywall, and insulating stud bays - friction-fitting ins. batts in steel stud bays ain't so easy. Hanging drywall became difficult when the studs weren't perfectly alilgned and the screws "skated."
note: All the door r.o's framed in steel were perfectly sized, plumb and square. My wood framed bucks weren't as acurate and took more shimming than steel
regards, 14-0
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I have two construction companies, one residential and one commercial. I prefer steel for its consistantly straight studs but wood for it's workability all the way around during and after framing (ie installing drywall, insulation, trim etc..). I think as far as framing productivity goes, with tradesmen skilled in both arenas, it works out to about the same.That is of course assuming that the wood is as straight as the steel. Personally I don't see myself ever building myself a house out of steel but a few basement partitions would be allright.
Pete Draganic
*Hello; What about as ceiling joists? Such as in a free standing office in a warehouse, maybe 14 X 14. Will steel hold the rock and insulation up OK on a span like that, and is a steel 2X6 any stiffer than a steel 2X4 in an application like that?
*What do you mean "I have versatility on my side"?At least on 8' walls:I've put up thousands of each, and find that a single plate, 24" oc wood wall, nailed with an air nailer can be assembled and stood up in seconds! Awright minutes.The only advantage is weight. And the heavier the gauge, the less the advantage.I have also done some 10', 2 1/2", 24oc steel walls. They do frame quite fast, probably faster than wood (due to the weight). They are surprisingly sturdy after drywall and ceiling installation.I'm with Jack, a few steel walls arent too bad, especially in basement remods. Sometimes there are advantages, but hanging the trim can become a pain unless you want to do the double toenail method (I'd do that for myself, but not others). I'd opt to line all the trim areas with wood, or use finishing screws. I don't do remods for others though, so thats a moot pointBlue, conceding some, but not all in MI
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I use steel for basements all the time!
A few tips are as follows.
I like to lay a wood plate down on the concrete first, then the steel track. The wood plate can be fastened to the floor much more securely and it is a good nailing trip for wood baseboards.
For bulkheads and boxing, I find wood and steel work much better than one or the other. The steel track stays straight and the wood criple studs make it very strong and easy to work with.
I also like to wrap a steel door R.O. with wood, again the steel is straight and the wood is nice for hanging doors to. By combinning to to produces you get a nice straight, no nail popping, easy to work with basement job.
*I am planning on using steel for a basement job. What is the preferred method for putting insulation into the stud bays? I will be using kraft-faced bats along the outside walls.
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Mathew and all,
Is not fiberglass made in full 16" widths for use with steel studs?
Jack : )
*Yes it is. It does work pretty well too. the flanges of the stud hold the insulation from sliding. Care should be taken to give each bay at least on set of "hands", if possible.Blue
*Your approach makes good sense. In some situations, drops are also easy to form with steel. Blue
*and, of course, there's always formfitting blown-in cellulose -- I assume it would plug the holes in the metal studs? Or they could be covered with tape.
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I'm a mostly residential contractor and I use only steel studs when finishing basements. I find that building 2x wall and trying to fit them in between ceiling joists and poured floors can be frustrating especially in older houses. You either end up shimming or bashing them in place with a sledge.
We lay the bottom cord right on the concrete and Tapcon them in and the built the walls in place using a combination of crimping and Kelly screws. The nicest thing is the flexibility to work the steel around those difficult basement artifacts like water meters, etc.
Try Roxul insulation for steel studs. It's 16" or 24" and has ample rigidity to stay in place.
If the there are aspects to the job that seem to require a wood stud or two, we slip a couple in where needed in stead of the steel and fasten it in place with a couple of drywall screws.
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I have used both and had people working for me use both. I can see the lighter guages being as fast as wood, but the heavier guages are hard on chop saw blades, and are slow to screw. I am told there is a pneumatic combination screw nailer on the market, but have never seen one. If I did a lot of this sort of work, I would wonder if a small mig welder wouldn't be faster and easier on the body than all those screws.
As an aside, I know a fellow that builds houses out of steel, structure and all. He buys the kits from an outfit in Texas. The job is hard on the hands with all the screws, but termites don't seem to be much of a problem.
Dennis
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I really liked your approach to using wood and steel together. I've framed solely with steel and also with wood. Both have great properties. But in the residential application, why not use them both. the homeowner will be happy because of less dust and noise, and your carpenters will be happy that they don't have to lug all that wood down to the basement!
*I really liked your approach to using wood and steel together. I've framed solely with steel and also with wood. Both have great properties. But in the residential application, why not use them both. the homeowner will be happy because of less dust and noise, and your carpenters will be happy that they don't have to lug all that wood down to the basement!
*As I read through the messages, no one has mentioned that you must constantly think about your drywall layout as you frame with steel. Drywall should stand up (95% of the time). You also need to start your drywall run from the open side of the stud or else the studs will twist and a hump will telegraph on the other side of the wall. Also, "break the joints" (stagger your seams) on opposites sides for strength)....and by the way,we always use 20 ga. trimmers for hollow metal frames (knock-down) and double 20's for welded frames.
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Working on finishing a basment (no load bearing walls involved). Searched this site and found little discussion on use of steel studs. In particular, 25 ga. are easier to work with. FH had a nice article awhile back. Pretty much gave the same techniques as mfgr. brochures. Interested in first-hand experiences,,
P.S. Read the thread on vinyl siding and can asure those "purists" that steel studs do not have simulated grain. And remember they are a "recycled" product.
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How about electrical wiring considerations??
For residential I am planning on clip-on plastic boxes
with "plain-ole" NMB 14/2-12/2 cable (please, save discussion on wire gauge for another thread).
At top of walls will cut hole and install bushing to protect against chaffing. Could I also use cable clamps? Don't want to invest in any 'specialized' (read as over-priced) punches.
Big question is: How do I attach VERTICAL runs of NMB to the steel stud?? Guy at Home Deport suggested punching two holes, NMB width apart, and using a plastic wire tie. Intriguing idea.. Any experience with this??
Home centers carry a product that used a 1 inch square piece of plastic with two-sided tape on one side and a plastic wire tie on the other. Stick it to the stud and attach the wire.