Sorry if this has been covered before.
I know many people like to use steel studs on non-load bearing walls, such as in a basement.
My question is what do you do where you attach to the floor.
I have used a wood plate attached to the floor and then attached the track to that – give me something to attach base to a little better.
Haven’t used steel in this situation since they switched to the new treated lumber that eats metal.
So, would you skip the wood and glue the base to the drywall?
Put plain pine on the floor with sill seal under it?
What do you do?
Replies
i have a hilti gun that "pins" the track to concrete. I use it often in commercial work, and occasionally in residential.
An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
I have a similar reminton gun or use tapcons all the time as well.
I used to use a treated plate on the floor first that would give me some wood to shoot to when installing base. Then put the track on top of that.
Was concerned about new treated eating track.
As I was posting I came up with a few solutions myself. Plain pine on floor with sill seal inbetween. Sill seal or tarpaper or something between treated plate and track. Skip wood plate and use glue for base with angled nails.
Just curious what those that use steel studs in residential basements usually do.
Folks,
I know I'm jumping into this discussion late but, I had a general question about securing any type of wall to a basement floor. I plan on adding walls to a basement that has radiant heat. Should I be concerned that the Hilti method is going to puncture a tube? I'm making the assumption that the tubing will be set much deeper in the floor than any nail I would use.
Maybe someone with some real knowledge will jump in here - but the use of the word assume is the scary part.
I have screwed tapcons into a radiant heat slab before, but had covered my azz, by getting the word from the guy that put down the slab that I was ok to go 1.5 inches into the slab. Put a stop on my drill bit so I knew I wouldn't over drill. I used about half the tapcons I normally do as well - just as another safety factor. PL premium construction adhesive laid on thick.
Good luck,
one advantage to using tapcons over a gun is that if the system is charged and you hit a pipe you should be able to see a wet bit and do a repair before the carpet is down. With the gun, I think there would be a slight chance that the nail could pierce the tubing and you might not know for a while - slow leak
Locate the tubes and mark them before you drive a nail or screw: Roll out kraft paper on the floor and turn the heat on. Spray water on the paper lightly. The tubes will show up as dry lines on the paper.
Attach the metal track direct to the floor. Drop 2x scraps in the track between the studs for a trim nailer. If you have tall base, you can stand the 2x on edge and screw it to the track.
Not really an easier or cheaper way to frame a non bearing wall. A metal stud is about 1/2 the cost of a 2x4 and will not twist or warp over time.
Thanks Mike - seems so obvious now that you tell me.
As for pricing though - don't know where you are (empty profile) but in Minneapolis, MN
3 5/8 x 8' 25 guage steel stud = $3.98
2x4x8 = $2.53
even the 1 5/8 steel is $2.59
But so much easier to carry in and down the stairs. All straight. Don't have to cut real precise.
I look forward to using steel again.
Thanks again for the post
"A metal stud is about 1/2 the cost of a 2x4...."
I wish they still were. I pay more for metal studs now than I do wood studs. I still use them for all of my basement projects though.
The Breaktimer formerly known as "Steve-O"
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
I do the scraps in the track trick. Works slicker than snot on a doorknob. Alternately, if you're doing a basement with a drop ceiling, as in, drywall just ends up there somewhere, you can also run rippers of 1/2" ply along the bottom of the studs. Then when the DW gets hung start low and go up. If you've got 4" base, a 3 1/2" rip is fine. By the time you stand the base off the floor, you're plenty far away not to risk seeing ply somewhere. But I prefer the scraps in the track. First, you probably have them, they fit perfect, and I use 1 5/8 on outside walls and they fit perfect in there on edge.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Borax treated 2x4
like the plywood idea as well - thanks
What do you or your electrician use for electric boxes?
I'm going to comment a little more than you asked for. Here's whats legal here. You can use romex in residential with steel. It has to be either going through those rubber grommet things or if through the plate at the top, a romex connector up there. And down the stud, they use a plastic clip that just zips into the stud to hold the wire. Conduit isn't necessary, but sometimes the electrician feels better about the world that way, and that's fine with me. It's cleaner, and probably a little safer. I spec metal squares with mud rings regardless. I suspect that's what you'd have to do with steel. I find it saves DW issues - rotozips follow that ring a whole lot better than smurf boxes.
You can get boxes, or I should say, the electrican can, that have a thin flange attached that just screws to the face of the stud. When they've had to mount a panel, I hang around and work with them. I mount one stud on either side of the panel, cleat underneath, and then I run a groove in a 2x4 and put it on the face side of each stud - creating an L shape. (the groove is to slip over the lip of the "C". If I have a panel in a room that's finished, I always make a raised panel cabinet cover for it. That wood stud lets me have something to affix that to.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Have you seen the boxes with the flange that supports it firm against the backside drywall? Nice to keep the oftentimes flopping box affixed to steel studs. Course, on partition walls only.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I'm not sure. A pic would tell me. The boxes I see used are steel squares with an L shaped flange. They stay pretty tight since the side of the box is tight against the stud. But I'm always open for a better mousetrap."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Sorry, no pics of them.
Something i remember we've done when theres a 4 gang box that might help someone doing this for the first time. We've fastened a stud scrap to the other end of the ganged box. Sandwitched between the two pcs of drywall, it keeps the long box firm in the wall.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
We've fastened a stud scrap to the other end of the ganged box.
I usually use a scrap of channel rigged like a header. After a while I also learned to leave a cutout for the cable to get into the box(es).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I pretty much use steel on everything except the walls that hold up the roof. With the house I just built we saved all the half inch plywood scrap from the roof sheathing. Ripped it down and screwed it the bottom track and studs with one inch drywall screws. I have also used blocks in the wall and a bead of PL Premium on the back of the base before firing nails into it.
Have a good day
Cliffy
I've ripped down Trex and put it under the bottom track. No rot, no ACQ.
Building Science says to put a strip of foam under the bottom track so that it doesn't act as a heat sink to the slab and cause ghosting on the drywall.
I've used electric boxes with steel side flanges that you screw to the sides of the steel studs. No need to screw anything to the face, although that shouldn't be a big deal either.
Billy
Thanks for the response
anyone spot weld steel studs rather than tek screws?
I was talking to someone the other day about steel studs and mentioned the only down side being the heads of the screws sticking proud of the stud when you screw them to the track. He mentioned spot welder - seems like it would work and be fast
the heads of the screws sticking proud of the stud when you screw them to the track. He mentioned spot welder - seems like it would work and be fast
Framing points are not that proud, tiny things that they are. The only drawback to spot welding I can think of would be that it is awful permanent. Sometimes the framing gets ahead of the framer and needs a touch of adjustment. Might not be the big a thing, either--just different.
I can't imagine dragging welding cable around while sticking up framing, but that's likely as much from the way I learned to frame (and not weld) as anything else.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
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It wouldn't work on light gauge. You would burn through the metal. You could use 18 ga. and cut them with a chop saw.
just use a hand crip.
not sure if that's the real name or just what we all call them?
hand squeezed tool ... has a pin(chisel shaped) that drives thru both pieces of steel ... then twists. Makes for little inner locking "ears" on the inside of the studs/track.
One "squeeze" for regular framing ... 2 if ya wanna keep something from racking.
stays put till U apply the drywall ... which ... locks it all together.
The only place I usually use screws are up in the bulkheads ... probably don't have to up there either ... but makes me feel better?
I think my crimps are from Malco?
Last time I bought some ... had to drive/call all over ... found them at the steel stud/drop ceiling/commercial drywall place.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
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Look .. no more driving ... they're for sale at amazon ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
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Artistry In Carpentry
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I have seen those and always wondered how well they worked.
Thanks for the post,
Shoe
takes a while to work up the hand strength ...
but after a few days ... like a hot knife ... thru really hard butter.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Crimper worked pretty well.......
not much problem getting the punch made - two at top and bottom of each stud on the interior side and a screw through the back that faces the foam - didn't want sparky knocking things loose.
hardest part was getting the damn thing to release after the punch had been made.
dripped a little gun oil on the piercing part occasionally - seemed to help
Would you believe, I looked hi and lo for one of those here, nobody but nobody had them, most hadn't heard of them . . . come to find out this city won't let you use 'em. Screws only. Sheesh. And all I wanted to do was lock the back of a stud wall I couldn't get at with screws."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
most of the time we only secure one side of the steel studs anyway. And when using deflection track, we take all screws from the top of the studs whe we drywall.An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
They need quite a bit of room behind the wall to get in to use the crimper - 6"?
I was putting a stud wall in front of 2" foam that was up against the block in a basement. Crimped the front for smooth finish and then just drove the screw from the front side through the back flange of the stud and into the track.
Sharp pointy screw sticking out the back side towards the foam - but that won't hurt anything - especially once the rock is on.
We have used steel in basements before for there ease of use and labor savings, and I now regret it. I have always believed in a thermo break between the exterior wall an interior studding including the floor with sill gasket.
The problem arises below grade, when the studs take on the temperature from the exterior and the warm air from the interior, they condensate, and over a five year term the sill and the bottom of the stud rust like crazy. Many basements we have done, show ghosting through the studs.
Wood has the ability to handle the transfer of extreme temperatures in the stud cavity and dissipate the moisture more slowly. If you are in a climate that does not have extreme changes from summer and winter , this may not apply.
We have renovated our Own work over twenty four years, and have seen the effects of steel over wood and I will never use steel below grade, even if the exterior is insulated as well! Call me old school, but I have seen the proof, from R2000 homes to 200 year homes.
It seems like you can cure the rusted bottom track problem by using a treated wood with sill seal or a trex bottom plate under the track. And you could solve the heat conduction from the slab problem by using sill seel or 1/2 inch XPS foam.
Did any of your old jobs that you renovated use rigid foam on the walls before you put up the studs? That would help keep the temp warmer and slow the water vapor seepage through the walls. Was there a vapor barrier over the steel?
Just wondering -- there's nothing like seeing how your work held up after 20 years and thinking about how you would do it differently next time. That's real experience. Thanks for your comments.
Billy