I have some questions about the weatherization program, I was hoping to get some different thoughts on how this should work.
First of all I have read that a lot of the stimulus money is tied up in bureauocratic red tape, some agencies are holding off on performing the work until the government tells them what to pay the workers. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32392585/ns/us_news-life
Then I have also read in an older different article that they raised the amount to spend on each house from around $3500 to $5000 per house. This same article quoted a ROI (return on investment) of $1.65 for every $1.00 spent.
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jan2009/tc20090129_222846.htm
Article said that while low income people spend 17% of their income on energy costs that while wealthier only spend 4%, and that weatherization can save $350 per year in home heating and cooling costs. ( That was a government estimate I believe arrived at by lowering some study’s arriving at a figure of $417)
Now how do they figure those numbers, if you spend $5000 to insulate and caulk and it saves you $350 per year it takes 10 years even if energy costs go up to break even, where are they getting a ROI of $1.65 per $1.00 spent?
How are they going to determine what houses to weatherize? Low income people may be renting, do they weatherize these homes for free? Does it apply only to low income home owners that haven’t been foreclosed on yet? ( I figure it won’t be long what with the economy etc, unless they can get low income jobs weatherizing homes )
What about all the other considerations, is it enough to replace some windows, caulk, and add insulation? What if the home has other issues, it may need extensive maintenance thats overdue because it is owned or rented by a low income qualifying person, is it worth it to upgrade weatherization in a home that obviously needs more than that?
Who does have the money for these programs? How are they answering questions like these? What guidlines should they set up to make sure the money is not wasted?
Replies
I was thinking about trying to get some of that "weatherization" work.
It occured to me that if I could come up with a proposal to take to the local non profit or county agency that has the money, and the proposal could outline solutions to the possible problems the local would love it.
So basically what I am asking for in this thread is a discussion from which a business plan could be developed, something that would address possible problems and solutions.
This community business plan could then be used in different areas by a lot of us to try to get some work, there are quite a few folks in my area that would be glad to have some of it, I would like to be involved, to help if I can.
The first thing that I would like to do is make it a positive for any prospective employee, I know that shelternerd has a great business plan/company operation plan that really takes care of employees, with education/advancement opportunities and a plan to encourage and help employees become home owners.
I like what the president said about being open with the stimulus package, that if the money is being wasted it needs to be reported, but me thinks the opposite side is true as well, if we as a community could piece together the "mooney wall" of business plans/operation manual to address weatherization and insulation issues with common sense procedures/ best work practices it could get quite a bit of recognition in a positive light, plus could very well be jobs for a lot of us. Win Win.
When I read Bruce Harley's book on weatherizing and insulating the thing that stuck with me the most was how important it was to have attention to detail.
If you seal up all the leaks and carefully place insulation, even fiberglass batt insulation will do an excellent job. The key is detail, don't miss anything.
There are lots of tips in the book about how to address can lights and electrical outlets, on and on, but how to document stuff that will be covered up when completed? A checklist, a few pictures, and a paragraph explaining what conditions were found and what procedures were implemented?
What about an old house with minimal fiberglass batts or blown in insulation and obvious rodent or bat droppings? I know if it was mine what I would do, remove and throw out all old insulation, get my tinsnips sheet metal and screen to seal access, then seal for air and reinsulate.
My problem whenever I get into a house I always find more to do. You don't have to worry about quick shoddy work under a nice finish on my projects, the opposite in fact. I find critter evidence so I wanna gut the inside and remove whatever I have to on the outside so I can make sure with my sheet metal and screen that the mice or squirrels aren't getting back in, and while you have it open you may as well make sure the wiring and plumbing etc, etc, now that vapor barrier has been breached etc, etc.. I have a tendency to be to much of a perfectionist when it comes to details like that.
Again the question from first post how to determine when a house should be a candidate for a whole house remodel because it needs to much to just have caulk and windows and insulation?
I would like to see entire neighborhoods rebuilt in this way, pick out the rattiest and reuild it, then move someone into it from same neighborhood so you can rebuild their house and when they are able to move back in start on the next house.
I guess that my biggest problem, I think its pretty straightforward how to seal for air leaks and place batts in the attic, the hard part is deciding what houses not to do because they need to much additional work, and those are the ones that probably need insulating and weatherizing the most.
"I would like to see entire neighborhoods rebuilt in this way, pick out the rattiest and reuild it, then move someone into it from same neighborhood so you can rebuild their house and when they are able to move back in start on the next house."They are trying to do that in an area in Kansas City. But I don't think that it is that extensive that they have to move out.But in any case, even if you where in this area you would not get a dime of it.Part of the plan is combine a bunch of programs and and part of it includes job training for people of the area and those people will do the work and end up with salable skills. At least that is what they claim.In general I would be in be in contact with local non-profit organization and find if they are participating, wanting to get envolved, what kind of houses they would work on, how they hire contractors, etc.http://voices.kansascity.com/node/4295
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William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Most of the houses in the KC "Green Zone" need to be torn down, though. It's a total scam and a waste of money. And I vote democrat!
I tried not to put in my thoughts.And while I don't know much about those particular homes I also think that it has scam written all over it..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I've worked my butt off saving an old worn out house. I love nice old neighborhoods. But the truth is most of those houses were junk to begin with and not worth saving.
Thats what I was talking about, I am wondering if the stimulus program is going to be throwing money away by caulking and insulating junk.
I guess if someone lives there it is worthwhile, just seems a better use of the money to improve a house that is structuraly sound.
The "stimulus" program is nothing more than another round of money being tossed down the tubes to the community organizers. They will spend billions putting a bandaid on a turd. In the end, it will still be a turd.
I think you may be right, again though, I would really like to "shine a light" on what is happening in keeping with the "transparency" theme of the stimulus.
If what you say is true, and they (we) are spending billions to accomplish nothing I would like to complain and offer some suggestions for improvement.
I like what was said about the health care subject, that if you have a better plan put it on the table, that was my thought and goal with this thread,
1. what specifically are they doing.
2. what can we do different that might be better.
3. how do I become a "community organizer", at least I know to flush a turd.
"3. how do I become a "community organizer", at least I know to flush a turd."Sorry, that disqualifies you.You are suppose to not flush the turd and then complain that community needs to organize to get get the government to appoint offical turd flushers..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thats funny, I have to laugh at that. Its also sad because there probably is some truth in it.
Hell ofa lot of car dealers hung out to dry with the Cash for Clunkers program, I'd be leery of joining them.
Joe H
That is something to consider, I have some experience with government contracting however, I got a job as a superintendent for a small contractor on a government project and learned a lot. I would think that contracting to do weatherization would be a similar process.
The good thing about government contracts (construction type stuff) is the pay is good, The bad thing is the paperwork nightmare. They have a lot of paperwork required which is complicated in the way in which it has to be submitted and is a time consuming process that has to be added to the cost of the job.
As far as prevailing wage or certified payroll goes I think thats a good thing. If you are a small contractor working with your crew you get to pay yourself prevailing wage. Typically on a government contract you are required to show a certain percentage of profit, the government understands that you have to make a profit to stay in business. That percentage of profit is based on the cost of the job, which if prevailing wage is higher than what you would ordinarily pay employees would also be higher.
I see it as a win win exect for the paperwork nightmare, however I also think the paperwork brings transparency which is another good thing in my opinion. I don't want to have to keep my business secret for it to be successful. If I can't be open about it to some degree, I dont want to do it.
I thought that if I did a good job, provided good jobs, and made a fair profit thats what the stimulus intended.
I am surprised by the light response in this thread so far (thanks to those who did), maybe there will be more over the weekend.
I was also surprised that there was not already a thread on the subject.
I thought it was slow, this is work. How do we get it? What do we do to make it job we are proud to do with quality craftsmanship? I thought it would be an immensely popular subject heck there is even politics involved. Go figure.
Well everyone has to start somewhere on the Prevailing wage/Certified payroll. Everyone has thier first job at it. But, a 40 or 50 unit project might not be the best one to start on.
Add in extreme competition (ie: low bidder) and you have a recipe for Net Income loss and sucking up a bunch of your time.
I started a thread about this program when it was first announced. No one seemed to know anything about it so I beat the bushes for answerers. I finally found out some things. This program is not new.
For lack of a better term, the program is run by the local welfare office. When I finally got ahold of the right person she seemed to be pi**ed that I had even called. From her tone it seems that they had been practically been begging for contractors to do these jobs for years. Suddenly, contractors are coming out in droves. I cant remember all of the details of the program but it is essentially a pita. As an insulation contractor I soon realized that I could make far more just doing my regular thing in spite of the economy.
If you want more specific details let me know. They sent me an info packet along with some special insurance application that is only available from one company in the entire country.
Edited 9/4/2009 4:14 pm ET by Griffin12
Thanks Griffin, I did not see your thread. Sorry to retread.
I would be interested in some contact information, or at least a hint of what keywords to search so that I might find some contact information.
I am not an insulation contractor, but as a general contractor I would do my own insulation, realized pretty quick that attention to detail was the key, that and patience. Try not to rush and do a good job, fairly simple.
It was great to hear your reply, and if an experienced insulation contractor isn't interested it must be a mess and what the heck are they getting to do this work.
There was all this talk of transparency, I would like to know more about what is happening, and I would like to try at least to further the message in the hopes of getting it heard.
The couple of weatherization plans that i have seen come through are a nightmare. The couple I have seen are low income apartments. Old and neglected. City of Portland is bidding so that might make them City of portland apartments? I don't know.
The issues I've seen are:
dealing with the City is never pleasant.
Prevailing wage work. Certified payroll
One job I heard from a GC there was over 100 people to do the walk throughs. ie: your competition.
probable preference to vets, minorities and other. (not an issue except that minority category has benn cheated on for a long time)
I do some energy audting and am moving my business towards air sealing, insulating and energy consulting. Thought about the low income weatherization stuff for a few seconds. Sounds more trouble than it is work, and a certainly don't want to be running a crew of ex-cons ( or competing against one).
Reach higher than the bottom rung - as someone recently said here " Volvo neighborhoods instead of Lexus neighborhoods"
I don't want to run a crew of ex-cons either, there are some young people here in my neighborhood who I think might be perfect for this type of work. My main motivation for trying something like this, to help my local community.
I have always wanted to try habitat for humanity, always seem to be too busy, or at least too unsure of schedule to commit.
I don't get the volvo lexus analogy, I don't think either are bottom rung. In the rural midwest its sometimes hard to tell the millionaire cattle baron in the beat up old F-150 from the trailer trash derelict in the beat up old F-150. In my neighborhood nobody seems nobody has wanted to spend a lot of money for a long time.
I like it though, I don't feel poor, I feel middle class!
I have been a WAP contractor before until I graduated to commercial weatherization. What would you like to know specifically.
Mind you it has been eight years ago but the song is probably still the same.
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end,