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Stone steps/wood railings

dieselpig | Posted in Construction Techniques on August 12, 2004 02:18am

A very good customer of mine recently had his front steps replaced.  They have a mortared field stone base with blue-stone slabs for treads and landing at the top.  The blue stone slabs are roughly a full 2″ thick.

I did a three season porch and deck for him this spring.  He really likes the look of the cedar railings I did on that project and would like the same details on his front stoop.  Is there a safe, secure, way to attach cedar 4×4 posts to his steps?  Some sort of a post bracket or something?  Hammer drill the stone, and epoxy an anchor in to bolt the bracket to?  Would love to help him out and he cringes at putting iron railings back up.

Steps come straight off the house with about a 4′ landing followed by three risers down.  Railings would start off the house and extend 4′ to a post then down the risers to a second post.

Gotta do both sides.

Would it make more sense to pour footings next to the steps and work from those?  Footings could be hid in the planting beds.

What are the options?  Thanks in advance, as always.

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Replies

  1. rvillaume | Aug 12, 2004 02:38pm | #1

    Afraid I can't help you out much with this, but I would be hesitant about using a hammer drill on bluestone.  Granite, no problem - but on bluestone I'd question it.  Someone else may have more experience with this.

  2. User avater
    dieselpig | Aug 13, 2004 10:35pm | #2

    BUMP.....

    little help anyone?

    1. User avater
      Dez | Aug 13, 2004 11:20pm | #3

      Hows about if you cut the post as if to do a half lap joint, and cement a steel plate or hefty strap in the planting bed the required space away from the side of the tread, rest the half of post on tread, and screw with lags? Without any more details, just shootin' from the hip.    Good luck!

      1. User avater
        dieselpig | Aug 14, 2004 02:02am | #8

        Dez,

        I appreciate your feedback.  Only part I'm not getting a good visual on is the purpose of the half-lap joint.  If you get a minute, could you explain a little further?

        1. User avater
          Dez | Aug 14, 2004 08:58pm | #11

          DP,

          Really just a shot in the dark...trying to keep your thread up there! Good luck with the project.

           

          Peace

          1. AndyW22 | Aug 15, 2004 05:43am | #12

            O.K Diesel pig, heres my 2 cents worth.

            make up a welded base that can be very well bolted to the steps that has 'fins' to engage slots cut in the bottom of the 4x4 post. Then run bolts through the post/bracket to secure everything. Think of it as a 4"x4" base plate with 2- 4" wide by 8" high plates welded across the centre. In plan it would look like a plate with a cross on it dividing it into 4 sections. The whole thing could even be concealed if theres enough money to wrap the posts in pine/cedar/azek. Try to keep the wood off the stone (but you knew that already)

            One word of advice, I recently had to faasten some angle brackets to sandstone using plastic plugs. 1.5 " deep, 3/16" drill bit, hammer drill, two holes per bit!!!!! that was 35$ in bits I wasn't counting on.

            Good luck

            Andy

  3. DANL | Aug 13, 2004 11:29pm | #4

    I think what you suggested with digging holes and putting the posts in the ground next to the steps is a good idea.

  4. User avater
    jonblakemore | Aug 13, 2004 11:41pm | #5

    Brian,

    Could you use a grinder to notch the overhang of the bluestone over the side, and notch the post to fit into the pocket you created?  I'm assuming the steps are concrete.

    Or maybe use a tile bit (less vibration than hammer drill) to drill an oversize hole and then insert an expoxied anchor, which the post would be bored to fit over.  The posts could be elevated 1/4" above the stone.  That way the bluestone *shouldn't* be under any stress.

     

    Jon Blakemore

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Aug 14, 2004 02:06am | #9

      Jon,

      Thanks man.  I'm probably gonna go with a combination of a few of the ideas you guys have come up with.  Gonna try to make it over there again on Sunday to have another look at things and see if anything else clicks.

      1. User avater
        EricPaulson | Aug 14, 2004 03:25am | #10

        D,

        I saw this once for interior post.......use a hollow post made up a four pieces (duh).

        Embed the end of a threaded rod (3/4"?) in the stone and concrete to come up through the post. A coupla of inches below the top of the post you will need a WELL secure block of some sort for the rod to come through it's center. Attach a large washer and a nut and have at it. Cap it off any way you want.

        I would think that a larger post (6x6) would work better (more bearing surface on the step or platform) than a smaller one. I would also like to see a decay resistant base perhaps, between the post and the step or platform.

        Embedding the rod is key, you're on you own there, but it looks like you may have that thought out.

        I would be upfront with the owner about the "experiment".  Seems to me this or something will work fine. I think gauging the need for fall protection is a factor as well. Are the posts for look, or is Granma gonna ape them everytime she comes over?I hate when people want to 'wiggle' the posts to see if they're secure. Yeah, wiggle it some more!!

        Good Luck,

        Eric

        I've also seen metal straps that are bolted to the outside top of the post, that kinda arc out and the bolt to the side of the stoop below the tread. Gives stability in one direction anyway.Every once in a while, something goes right!

  5. arcticcat | Aug 14, 2004 01:19am | #6

    Diesel- I've never tried it over bluestone, but over concrete I've had good luck inserting a 1/2" "drop-in anchor", the kind threaded on the top few inches.  The posts are drilled out from the bottom to slide over this, and then drill a 1 1/2" hole on the side of the post, a few inches up from the bottom.  The second hole gives you an access to  get a nut over the anchor and tighten it with a wrench, similar to bolting handrail fittings together using rail bolts.  You can fine tune the plumbness of the posts with bits of cedar shims inserted between the bottom of the post and the stone, cut off flush with the post once the bolt is tightened down securely.  I've done a few this way, one over 10 years ago, with no problems. I suppose that rather than using an expanding-type drop in anchor, you could also epoxy a short length of threaded rod into a hole drilled in the stone.

    Mike



    Edited 8/13/2004 6:22 pm ET by arcticcat

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Aug 14, 2004 02:00am | #7

      Mike,

        That just might work, good thinking!  I'm thinking I could drill through the bluestone (mason assured HO this wouldn't be a problem....we'll see) into the contcrete base of the steps.  I would probably do both the expanding bolt anchor and the epoxy.  Then tap the post and bore for the nut like you said.  Good chance that'll work.

      I just hate going into a job without being 100% sure that "it's" gonna work... especially not having a Plan B to go to.  Whaddya tell a HO in situations like this, you know?  He's a good guy  though.

      Anyway, thanks for the input.

  6. User avater
    Homewright | Aug 15, 2004 01:59pm | #13

    An option I've used was to set the posts outside the steps and outrigger the rail and picket to the step side of the posts.  You'd do footers to the outside where you said you could bury them in planting beds and set up your posts to run at the appropriate height for a rail.  You could also bolt these to the substructure of the steps for added stability.  Then just build everything to the step side.  On the outside, you could set up some low voltage outdoor lighting to give the outrigger post more of a function.  Maybe do a bevel cut along the post's exposed edges for an added touch.  Just another two cents in your growing piggy bank...

  7. jayzog | Aug 15, 2004 09:56pm | #14

    The way I have doene this before- Get some galvanized floor flanges from the plumbing supply, bolt the flanges to the stone with tapcons or expansion anchors, screw in an 8 " galv. nipple, drill out the bottom of your post slightly over size, fill the hole with thickened west system epoxy, slide tin post over the nipple and brace it plumb to dry over night.

    The only time I've had a problem with this method is when the mason doesn't do a good job setting the stones, and the leverage of a post pulls them loose.

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