I don’t khow if it’s a lead joint or not. I never seen such a joint at this. This is on a tub drain with a drum trap. The exiting drain tube from the drum trap is inserted into another drain that has a fitting shaped sorta like a funnel, or bellshaped end into which the drum trap pipe is inserted. The resulting “cuff” or “cup” whatever you want to call it is then filled with a bunch of silvery looking stuff. It looks very much like the dull color of solder. But if it’s solder, then they must’ve used a whole roll because the cup around the joint is about 1/4″ all the way around and it’s filled full. The joint appears to have been assembled with the cup pointed upwards because the solder or lead, whatever it is has overflowed the cup evenly and formed a nice curved joint where it meets the drum trap drain. The joint is quite smooth also, I really looks like solder.
Anyways, the problem is, the joint has developed a leak. Must be a pinhole leak, I can’t see where it’s coming from, but the water is clearly coming from that joint as nothing else is leaking around it or onto it or upslope from it. Is there anything I can put on this joint to stop the leaking temporarily, for a few months or years? The HO eventually will replumb things the right way, for now they just want me to find a way to stop the leak without having to get into more drastic measures.
Replies
soldering iron and 50/50 solder..
You might be able to resolder, actually extend the solder up if I'm guessing correctly what is going on, and have it hold for a few months, maybe a year or two.
Sounds like a poured lead joint. Pipe is run down into the flange of the drain. Oakum is stuffed in and tamped and then molten lead is poured to just shy of the top of the cup.
The most likely point of failure is not the poured lead. Usually the lead doesn't go all the way to the top of the flange. This leaves a upturned hollow. This hollow is where any water leaking from another joint, above the poured joint, tends to collect as it runs down the pipe above. The water collecting in this cup shape corrodes the thin metal of the down pipe that was poured into the joint. A tiny hole forms right where the lead hits the down tube.
Sometimes a temporary fix is to clean the down tube and try to run the solder up the tube enough to get a seal. Sometimes necessary to literally fill the upturned cup with lead to gain a seal. Sometimes the lead will tend to run into the down pipe through the corroded hole. Sometimes there is so much corrosion that the down pipe has disintegrated at the level of the original lead pour and once clean there is nothing left to work with.
Sometimes, from seeing this under old houses, people will attempt a repair with tape or epoxy. Sometimes an epoxy job will last a while.
The permanent repair is to remove the down tube and replace it. You might be able to save the original flange and repour lead. Maybe.
More than likely your going to need to chop the entire assembly out, replace the down tube and install a modern transition fitting to make the seal between the down pipe and the drain stub that remains after you cut the joint out. Likely a neoprene transition with stainless bands to hold everything tight. These work pretty well and have proven reliable in the long term.
I hate saying it, but for all the trouble it is, and no guarantee of a leakproof result, to me it's easier to cut the dang thing out, slap a fernco on the down pipe and then PVC the rest of the drain and eliminate the drum trap. Sounds easier, and long lasting to me.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Pretty much what I had written in the last of my post. For me it is about understanding the situation and considering options. Chop the section out and slap an adapter onto it is the short answer. But I'm not there and who knows the guy may be trying for 'historical accuracy' and loves the idea of playing with molten lead. He may have been waiting for a decade to have a good reason to fire up that antique, solid brass, gasoline fires blowtorch. Remember those? Or a closet physical chemist, and the heart of a tinker, that gets a chubby thinking about playing with epoxy to make quick and dirty patches. Takes all kinds.
Here's a picture of the joint I was referring to. You can see the bellshaped, funnel cup.
Went my plumbing supply today for something else. Showed the pic to him. He agreed, switch it out with a splice. When I noted that there is very little pipe for the fernco to attach to on the drum trap side he said to try this new sealant out called Gelco to see if it'll at least offer temp relief until the guy redoes his plumbing. I bought a tube, heck why not try it. The stuff is weird, it comes out like liquid plastic. Doesn't stick to your fingers unless you mesh it. I put dabs on my fingers and rubbed it all over the joint. I'll find out tomorrow if it works.
If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Give the new goo a shot. It would be a simpler job, perhaps, if you were replacing the tub. I would be tempted to see if I could disconnect the drain fitting from the tub and cut the drain line a way back. Where I could get to it easily and there is enough room and accessible pipe that you can fit a neoprene adapter onto. The down line connected to the tub is likely standard so replaceable. Also Fernco, or similar, does make a rubber trap that might work instead of the drum trap your looking at. Your in such a tight spot that fiddling with the small pieces is a PITA. Sometimes making the job bigger it gets easier.You likely know this but the photo includes a nice illustration of Knob and Tube wiring. A fine shot of two knobs and a porcelain tube sticking out of the floor joist.If those are not dead, and your extremely sure they are not live in any way, shape or means, messing with water and grounded plumbing lines could get entirely too entertaining. You likely already know this but it needs to be said every time less anyone less informed sees a similar situation.
Yeah, the K&T wiring, it is rather "entertaining" isn't it? Of all places it could be running. The HO did ask about it, whether or not to replace it. Of course I'm all for replacing it anytime, but I'm the kind of person that gives all the legit options and I did tell them that the K/T was in good condition and the code permits it to remain unless it is damaged in some fashion. The HO has plans to remove the susp ceiling that hides this hole you were looking up at in the pic. They want to redo all the plumbing, which I suggested since there was a lot of galvanized and I suggested the wiring as well, and to reroute it from the plumbing. I think he bought it, but it could be months or years before he does it, he's $$ tight right now. Every time I find an issue he immediately wants to know how he can save on the repair. I found a leaky Cu soldered joint, all crusty and green, dripping, you should've seen his face. ANOTHER REPAIR.
Poor guy...his house has been keeping me busy of late. He's a DIYer wanna be, gets so far, gets the craps of it, quits and calls me. Lately he's been calling me before even starting and just having me do his work. That said, I'm sure I'll be eliminated that K/T you mentioned. And oh yes, the K/T IS live. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
I was figuring you were talking about a cast-iron fitting, but in the picture the drum looks like copper, and the pipe it's fitting into looks like lead. In any event, that's not a standard cast-iron bell.If it were a standard cast-iron bell, and the fitting going into it was reasonably solid galvanized iron or cast iron, the solution would probably be to use a cold chisel to tamp the lead tighter. I don't think that will work in this case, though.Scrape the pipes with a knife blade, and see if you can tell what they're made of.
MadBomber. . .Uh, I mean Pyro,
Wire brush/sand it down to shiney. Wipe it with PVC, Brake, or Carb cleaner.
Then use Goop. . .Shoe Goop, House Goop, Marine Goop, whichever you can find, they are all excellent.
SamT