Storm window alternative on an old house
Recently purchase a 322 year old house here on LI in NY and the house has lotssss of 12 over 12 windows. Theres big storm windows in the basement ready to install. A major pain in the azz cause I’ve done it on the house before this one I just sold. I saw an add for alternative storms that go on inside the house in less then five minutes. I’m assuming its a velcro installation. That would appear to look really tacky IMHO. HAs anyone actually seem them in real life? Any other ideas or am I stuck with what goes along with old houses? I’ll do it…just was wondering if there was an alternative is all. Dont say put in thermo tru divided lites cause that aint a happenin’, or shrink wrap…oiy
Thanks
Namaste’
Andy
It’s not who’s right, it’s who’s left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 10/16/2002 10:14:31 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Replies
Andy- how come you always say '322 year old house' instead of circa 1680?
Half of good living is staying out of bad situations, the other half gets so complex I don't deal with it.
I never had a problem with character, people have been telling me I was one ever since I was a kid.
I donno.....wuts the difference. Spose 322 years old sounds more personal and less museum like. Spose its just personal taste. MAybe a bit of tude' too. Around here people have lil' signs in front of their mini mansions that say Circa this and that. Actually a neighbor in the house before the one I'm in had a Circa sign in front of her house and I always referred to her as Ms.Circa....lol....seems to be a status thang around here so I reckon I shy away from it...I think maybe I'll put a lil' sign in front of my new old house that says "322 years old" with the last two digits on hooks like McDonalds kinda does and each new year I'll add the next number.......funny you should ask. Good call.
Be well
Namaste
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 10/16/2002 11:03:23 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Edited 10/16/2002 11:04:33 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Andy - Hire an architect!T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
(Whatever is built well, no matter how humble, is noble)
Jeff.....whatttt????? I have one. Shes doing the plans for the addition. That wasnt the question bro. the question was does anyone know an alternative? Archs dont have all the answers but in this forum people have TRIED and EXPERIANCED different things which is why I posted the question.
aIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I was kidding, Andy, and hoping for the job ;o).
JeffT. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
(Whatever is built well, no matter how humble, is noble)
oh..sorry....I think I did ask you where you were located a bit back and you never replied. I think. Before I hired an arch. Too bad...would have been a pleasure working with you
Be well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
andy... a lot of the doris duke restoration colonial houses in newport wound up with triple track alum. storms... they just couldn't heat them otherwise.. and they couldn't afford the upkeep and the seasonal changeover of the 1 over 1 wooden storms..
they usually used mill finish alum and painted them to match the trim... most of them are more Invisible to the cursory glance than you would think... especially if you make sure the meeting rail matches the meeting rail on the primary windows...
so, since i mispent my youth puttying , painting, and changing wooden storms and wooden screens.. i'll never go back..
the interior storms don't work as well..( well.. they are a little more air tight.). but they don't protect the primary window and the putty and paint of the primary window...plus you have to store them someplace off-season.. and it doesn't take care of the screen problem...
so... two choices in the real world.. long term....expensive insulated true divided...... or triple track
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
Got my ladders ready and gonna hang the storms. Means sumpin to me. Means a real lot!
BE well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Best I have seen were the magnetic strip attachment storm windows, either internal or external. The lower cost ones were rigid, the best the refrigerator door type magnetic strips. Nearly invisible, easy to install.
Now, unfortunately, the last time I saw them (pricey suckers) sold commercially in PW Northwest (maybe you still have them on LI??) was in the early '80s just before the Jimmy Carter tax credits for energy copnservation were eliminated.
thanks junkIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy--
Just want to continue my tradition of offering helpful suggestions about your new house:
Regarding the addition you mentioned above, have you considered permanently placing a doublewide on a poured foundation? I am sure, possibly for a few extra bucks, you could get a pretty close match to the existing maroon colors. Now, before you give a knee jerk response of "No", please consider for a second the age of your house. You certainly envision it having barely reached 50% of its total life expectancy (i.e.: all work done with this 644 age expectancy in mind). From this context, the house will be barely approaching middle age in the year 2152; however, the doublewide addition will itself be 150 years old, and certainly qualify as historically significant, might even be seen as one of those "quaint" additions the oldtimers did in New England...
Regards,
Rework
24031.16 in reply to 24031.5
<<<<Regarding the addition you mentioned above, have you considered permanently placing a doublewide on a poured foundation?>>>>>
Rework....have to scuse my ignorance on this one. Whats a "doublewide"?
Thanks
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
andy.. he's referring to the most efficient housing ever devised.. everything else we build , buy , or live in pales in comparison...
a double -wide mobile home....!!!Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
MIKE.......ROFLOLMAOBTC,,,,,,It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
andy - was wondering the condition of the 12/12 windows, on all points of compass . and the variation of the conditions thereof??" bear.......
Bear
Most open! They all need work. I've been getting rumors from past agents that tried to close on the house. One told my wife tat its falling off the foundation. Another said the foundation is crumbling. Supposidly these comments came from engneers and you know what I think about "most" engineers. Noneeeeee were engineers versed in historic homes. Not to coun them out but.....I spent hours feeling all the plates over the foundation and see whats wrong. A lot IS wrong but in my estimation the house is still on top of the foundation. Some plates are seriously mush. I'll take care of that first thing. New footings dug on the inside of the existing foundation and steel I beams with steel lollys under them. A bit more comples but thats my initial plan right off the bat as well as grade the land on the side of the house that slp[es seriously into the house.
You know the house Bear. You worked on the foundation decades ago. Just stop by the end of next week after I'm in for a cold one and we'll jaw bro. Keep my website for my phone number.
The windows are in excellent shape after I strip em all down....lol..Cant wait
I figure to set up an area so that if there are any lulls in building time for anyone that works for me...they can do a window.
BE well
Namaste'
andyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy--
Truly disheartened that the full day has passed, since Mike told you what a "doublewide" was, and you've yet to give me the green light. No bother, I actually came up with a revenue enhancing improvement: We both know that Long Island remains a designated emergency landing zone for the space shuttle. I'm sure NASA would always appreciate an additional "offsite" telemetry and tracking post. You could sublet the rear part of the doublewide to them (read: $$$$$$). Knowing your skills, I rest certain you could think of a clever way to disguise the rooftop mounted dish and whip antennae. Problem I can't quickly solve is the tracking cameras: pretty wide and reflective lenses which for obvious reasons cannot be totally obscured. Anyways, if you could just get back to me fairly soon, congress will soon be voting on the FY 2004 budget, and you might not want to lose a full year of revenue...
Regard$,
Rework
Rework
You son of a bitsh....Cant ya keep quite dummy. Mike and me had a plan. Wuts up with you son? OK OK so yer pissed you didnt get yer Email yet. Well my server was down dude....Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh. OK? Heres the plan. Get five bullfrogs...ok.They have to come from the the swamps of Alabama..and have to be republicans....Put em in a burlap sack and we have to go out on a dark stormy night, The day has to be ending in the letter "Y" or it wont work bro,,,,OK? THENNNNNNN...gotta creep into the swamp with the sack and bullfrogs....you still with me? Heyyyyyyy YOU STILL THERE? Geezzzzzzzz.....ok ok....we come upon a cement factory thats been abandoned for yearsssssss.....OK? You still there bro? We creep in the factory withthe burlap sack, frogs and uhhhhhhhh a flashlight. We hook up the ................soon to be continued
Be well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Jeez Andy, you really make it hard on this bear with a minimal brain. Go to Alabama: Check. Get five bullfrogs: Check. "They have to be Republicans": Ah shoot...How the heck? Wait a second, need to experiment. So last night I went out into the pond next to my house, burlap bag and flashlight in hand (by the way, was a bit cold up here in Massachusetts, though not complaining). Started lightly whomping and throwing the suckers in the bag. Turns out, as soon as they started reviving, the democrats were easy to pick out and return to the swamp, for they immediately started croaking "HABEAS CORPUS, HABEAS CORPUS..." Heading for 'bama this evening, will recontact as soon as I've got them and made the factory. Just hope the southern cousins act the same...
Regards,
Rework
Edited 10/18/2002 1:22:15 PM ET by Rework
Edited 10/18/2002 1:22:57 PM ET by Rework
Rework
ROFLOOOO
aIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
Would advise to think long and hard before going with interior storms. After you've reglazed a few dozen of those 12/12's you are not going to want to do it again anytime soon! Some form of exterior storm will go a long way towards preventing that. Also, you might want to test how interior units will affect the condensation on the inside face of the prime windows before comitting to a house full of them. In my Central NY climate I get ice pretty thick on the inside face of the exterior window. I would prefer that to be a storm window rather than 175-yr-old primary sash.
Steve
You never can tell....
Andy might just turn out to be the type of mellow, patient, methodical, plodding, steady person who likes reglazing windows. It could be part of his meditation schedule everyday. When he runs out of glazing to do at his own house he could volunteer to reglaze others in the poorer sections of town.
I can see it now, his new sign-in name will be andyglazzzzzzzzed.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piff
Hardee har har....don't think so....I think I'll suck it up and do the hangin thang...Shglaw says he'll come buy and help me if I build him some garage doors under twenty grand......lol. Said he'd stop by today to harass me about my new house. Where is he already?
After all the posts I think I WILL do whatcha gotta do in an old house. WORK!
Be well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
steve.. good to see you posting... was it you was moving to the twin cities ? catch us up on what you've been doing Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Steve,
I don't seem to have much problem with condensation on the exterior windows surfaces.
My old sashes are in two conditions: sealed up real tight or pretty darn loose. Where the double hungs are tight, there is no mechanism to drive moist air between the windows. Where the windows are loose, moist air that gets around the storm can find it's way out pretty easily. At least that is my theory (and I'm sticking to it).
I'll admit that our central PA winters are not quite as severe as yours and that could also be a factor.
A problem I do have with the windows that are not tight is this: during extremely windy conditions, the magnetic seal holding the storms in place can get popped loose on those windows on the windward side where the double hungs are not weatherstripped tightly. They don't come loose enough to fall off, but a corner can come loose and let in cold air. I don't see this happening on windows that are sealed up or weatherstripped properly.
As I said, I like the look, but do wish there was a better way of protecting the glazing along one side of the house, 12/12 windows would be a pain to maintain if the glazing only lasted a season.
Edited 10/20/2002 9:23:56 PM ET by WFLATHER
"bear with a minimal brain" LOL well sometimes, sometimes not i just hafta work on consistency . i aspire to be as the rank n' file but .......LOL genetic limitation's hinder my quest........ i can dream cant i ...........: ) cheers the thick skinned bear
Speaking of doublewides..... My pain in the a$$ neighbors in the house across the street from us managed to break a pane in one of their front double-hung windows back in April of this year. It is now October, and they still have a 4' x 4' piece of 1/2" OSB nailed over that opening. Not much for allowing daylight in their livingroom, but I'll be sure to ask them about it's energy efficiency :)
Good Luck!
Steve-O:
My neighbors would tell you to be grateful for yours...Finally decided last Spring to relocate and switch out a kitchen window facing the street. Removed shingles covering that side of house. Then got in a tussle with my better 90% about installing a 12 by 12 (on-hand) when the rest of house has 2 by 2s. Covered entire wall, including existing window, with Typar until the interior storm blew over. Mortally embarassed when I went outside that night, stormed back in stating "Great, we now have windows by Typar!". With the fluorescent backlighting from the kitchen, from the street the window looked like an illegal sign...
Regards,
Rework
Dear Circa 1680-
I've a friend in NH with a big ol' 1700 something that has one of those circa signs on it. Love that place. They keep it as close to orginal as possible. Has these sliding wood panel doors that cover the windows called 'indian cupboads' for protection from hostile indians. The downstairs has a two seater toilet and the upstairs a three seater side by side fore family unity. Hilarious. Let the thunder crack and the waves roar,
the hills roll and the ...
12 over 12, so you have double hung windows? Interesting, I didn't know that they made double hung that long ago. DH would be a real tough design to make accurately enough without machine tools.
I've seen buildings in that age range in Oslo, Stockholm, Moscow, and Vienna. They use casements with two permanent sets of sash, one that opens in, and one that opens out. That's what I want to do ultimately, but for now I'll be glad just to get one set of new windows in.
-- J.S.
I appreciate what Mike had to say about protecting the sashes with the combo unit but personally I never cared for the looks of them. Owners here sometimes have them removed for appearance. Then the first time they're here in October with a monster wind blowing, they want'm right back on.
There are interior storms that don't look tacky. Shop around the glass shops. You drill a small (5/16" or?? 3/8") hole in the side jamb stop or the casing in four or six locations. There is a coloured insert liner cup that stays in the hole. It lines up with the retainer pins in the storm frame which is white extruded aluminum. Maybe other colours available too. There are other fastening methods but that's the best I've seen.
Excellence is its own reward!
Two major concerns here…………..one's already been mentioned. If you do the interior storms, there's nothing protecting those prime windows. Not a good thing. Second concern - unless those interior storms seal really tight and/or your primes have little vents in them (which I seriously doubt) you're gonna get water vapor from the interior side migrating thru even the tiniest crack and getting trapped in between the windows and that'll frost up when it's cold enough so you can't see out and/or start saturating the prime windows from the inside whenever it's warm enough to maintain the vapor in liquid form. You'll have a pretty efficient terrarium going on in there if this happens. Not good, either. It'll cause those primes to throw their paint and glazing and I don't think you're going to be very anxious to redo the glazing and paint on those every few years and it'll exact a price on the sills.
I'd be inclined to bite the bullet and mount the exterior storms. It's what I do here on this circa 1875 Vic (no, it's not fun) and then seal the original prime windows with Seal & Peel to prevent any moisture from migrating. It's a clear temporary caulk that works very slick. The stuff peels out like a rubberband when you want to remove it.
I built the storms for this place cause when we got it in '88; it had those, IMO, damnable aluminum track windows on it. Didn't work worth a hoot and looked like hell. We've restored this place to it's total original appearance.
We only peel a few windows every year cause we're central ACed now, but I peel them all about every two years to wash all the glass.
I've seen those double sets of casements that John talked about in Vienna as I've got a friend whose lived there for what seems like forever now. Lots of folks there use them as extra refrigerator space in the winter. Pretty nifty really.
So, how do we build these storms? Any leads to plans? Our Buffalo NY house (two family, built 1905) had wooden storms but these were replaced with horrible semi-functional triple track aluminum storms. Painting does improve there appearance, as a participant observed. Our Maine island house has no storms (we haven't wintered there yet!), but I was planning to build wooden storms rather than spend the bucks to replace all of the windows. Should I copy the old time storms? What about vents, condensation, etc. Any advice would be very welcome!
Javier,
Here in Seattle I use vertical-grain Douglas fir for storms and window sash. They are 1-3/8" thick with 2" stiles and top rail, 3" bottom rail. The storm sash is rabbeted at the top and sides to allow it to fit into the shallow rabbet provided between the casing and blind stop of a typical double-hung window. As far as joinery, you can use dowels, or go for the old mortise and tenon if you really want to make them bullet proof.
I hang the sash just like old window screens: two "hooks" at the top, and either a pair of turnbuttons at the bottom to hold it in place, or "ventilating hardware" which will hold it in tight and allow you to swing the storm window open at the bottom for some fresh air.
I leave a strong 1/16" at the top and sides for swelling, etc., and an 1/8" at the bottom. This is to allow *some* air exchange so you don't end up with a lot of condensation. Also, it gives any water a way to get out in the event it does get trapped between the storm and the primary window sash. I've seen situations where people caulked in aluminum storms and literally created a small dam of water between the storm window and the primary sash. It was a great way to rot their sills clear through!
This configuration works well for a climate in Seattle, which is typically pretty damp, but not too extreme in terms of the cold.
Ragnar
Thanks, Ragnar -- that's very helpful, and that's exactly what I will do! I like the rabbet idea. Otherwise with 3/4 stock to fit the space built into the window, they would be very floppy. Do you glaze the sash in the customary manner (rabbet, points, putty)?
Javier,
Most often, we just use glazing compound and points. One guy I know uses a glazing caulk with points. It dries overnight - unlike the putty - and it can be painted a lot sooner that way. It also remains flexible, which is especially good if you plan on removing the storm sash on a seasonal schedule. He's been doing it this way for over 10 years, and there hasn't been any problems with water entry, etc. The only downside is that it's a bit harder to get the hang of applying it. He uses a glazing knife, just like you would do with putty.
A third option is to use glazing stops, like you see sometimes on old commercial buildings, and conventionally in double-insulated french doors. The stops are just set in some caulk, and then shot in place with 18d brads. This method shares the same advantage as the caulking option, since you can paint almost immediately, and it gives your glazing some added resistance to popping out as the storms are handled during their seasonal schedule. Really, the only downside of this method is that it takes longer and is thus more expensive than the first two options. But if your carpentry skills are stronger than your glazier skills, it may prove to be faster for you. I'll have to add, too, that a nice glazing stop really looks sharp, and gives the storm sash a classy, vintage look.
Ragnar
Andy, I built and installed interior storms several years ago. After removing the exterior storms and restoring the original 6/6 windows in our home we liked the look from the outside so well that we were unwilling to put back in t/t storms or single frame storms. The interior storms are very clear plexiglass in vinyl frames. These are held in place with rubber refrigerator magnet type backing on the frame that attaches to a metal strip attatched with adhesive to the inner reveal of the window frame. Along the bottom is a foam sweep instead of the metal strip. For windows that don't have an adequate reveal facing into the room, the frames can be held in place with a steel angle strip. This is a but more intrusive and I wouldn't have been as happy if we had needed to use this.
I purchased the frame materials from a dealer, got the plexiglass locally, cut and made the frames myself, it wasn't difficult. I believe our parts were from Magnatite, but the website doesn't show the bottom frame part with the foam sweep, instead showing a piece of angle installed on the window stool instead, which would be unacceptable to me.
Overall, we have been really pleased with the performance. They are as clear as glass, visually unobtrusive and would be even more so if we had kept to white window trim since the storm frames are white. They seal the windows up tighter than t/t storms and the windows are classic looking from the outside. I don't have to climb up a ladder to install or remove them.
Disadvantages: They don't protect your windows from weather, the glazing compound on our western windows take a beating. They need to be stored if you remove them, but they are thin and light and we typically only remove 3 of the 8 anyway. Are not quite totally invisible from the inside, but would be pretty much so if you had curtains installed. Limited color selection of frame stock, white or brown.
I attach a photo of one of ours (my wife decided to stick some of my old tools between window and storm). You can see that if the trim were white, the storms would blend in well.
http://www.windowsaver.com/
http://www.magnetite.com/
http://www.stormwindows.com/
http://www.invisiblestorms.com/
WFlather and everyone else,
WOW...Thanks dude (WF). Going to check into them all. Got to redo all the glazing and strip the paint from all the windows interior and exterior so I'll be looking into whats best to reprime and paint. MAybe marine grade I'm thinking. Taking in all the other posters said as well without any grains of salt. I hear everyone.Its possible I may just rehang the exterior made ones each year. I'll see how long it takes me and how they fit in a couple of months.
Thanks everyone..I seriously appreciate the time you'll spent writing me.
Be well
Namaste'
andyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Old House Journal has published a number of articles on this over the years; I don't know what's avaialable there on line.
Andy,
I do a lot of reproduction windows in Seattle.
Are you familiar with ventilating hardware for traditional storm windows? Most of my clients put this hardware on their second-story windows so they don't need to get out the ladder each year. The hardware acts as a hinge at the top edge, allowing you to swing the storm sash out at the bottom to get some fresh air (the hardware "arms" themselves are adjustable and have a friction pivot-hinge to maintain position). Anyway, the system works well here in Seattle, but summer conditions may be different in your part of the country.
Otherwise, I would use interior storm sash, as others have suggested. Hang them as inswinging casements. If you want to remove them in the summer, just pull the hinge pins, and at least you don't need to mess with ladders.
Incidentally, the "storm" sash that I use is constucted in exactly the same manner as the window sash, so they always look great, whether indoors or out.
Ragner
Have a website I can look at?
aIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM