Hi
I am thinking of building storm windows which are not too common in the San Francisco Bay Area.I have about 20 windows worth to do (all double hung or fixed). I have read Rex Alexander’s 1997 article in FHB which is a good start. I do have a few questions though. I would like to be able to leave the storms up year round and have some of the storms have some type of ventilation meaning the glass would have to move to leave a screen in place. I have seen that this is done but I do not know if it is done in wooden storms, and if so, how?
My second question deals with glass type. I live near an above ground subway station and a middle school with a few rambunctious teenagers who have been known to throw things at windows. I was thinking of using some type of laminate glass which I believe will cut more noise and offer more protection against rocks etc. Does anyone have any idea of how much laminate glass costs per square foot? Are there any drawbacks to the laminated glass besides weight? I will probably build the sash out of 4 or 5 quarter vertical grain doug fir (which is pretty easy to find used around here). Thanks for your help,
Rob
Edited 3/5/2008 2:14 am ET by robman
Replies
there is traditional storm window hardware where the storm is hooked at the top and the bottom can be loosened and hinged out like an awning -
I'm unsure where such fasteners can be purchased today - Restoration Hardware perhaps? - perhaps google could help -
got nothing on the glass type - but I'm sure someone else will be along -
D
Just curious; wouldn't it be about as much work to build new, double pane sash for the windows or modify the existing sash to accept double pane glass?
My experience with both storm windows and double pane glass is that the latter is more efficient, both in noise attenuation and heat retention.
Edited 3/5/2008 8:54 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Storm windows will be MUCH easier to build than trying to modify existing sashes to do something they are not designed for. If you modify the sashes, you have to change the balance mechanism. And the mutons and mullions will not be proportioned properly. And the seal on double pane glass fails.Dino has a good article in FHB about late 2006 I think.
I don't agree but then I wouldn't fool around with either method myself. I'd just remove the sash and install vinyl replacement units. So much more simple, economical, efficient and effective, but if vinyl ain't on your menu......
Not in a million years...
Why not just say that they don't suit your current project or are you trying to make some other point?
Several wooden storm door manufacturers, offer units where the glass can be swapped out with srceens. Basically, just a swivel lock that hold the panels within the frames.
Keep the frames in place year round and switch from glass to screen as necessary.
Storing the inserts during the "off seasons" might be an issue.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
Thanks for the replies. I did find some really nice stainless hangers on the internet that were, considering they are stainless, not excessively expensive. I also cannot see changing the glass in the sash to insulated or laminated glass for all the reasons listed. The windows are nice, 100 year old natural doug fir which I have put good weather stripping on as well as new sash cord etc. I think the changing of panels will be much easier than changing out windows but what I'd really like, at least for the kitchen and baths, is the ability to raise the glass and have a screen remain in place so it could be done parts of a day versus seasonally. I was also unable to find the article by Dino. Is there a longer name? I am assuming that it was in the magazine from the post. Is that correct? Thanks for your help.Rob
Dino equals (=) T.H. Richards.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Good point! I don't think he could have found the article under 'Dino'.
Rob,
See the picture below of the typical hardware used to allow ventilation without having to actually remove the storm sash.
The general name is "sash adjuster"; see this for example: http://www.stanleyhardware.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=HDW+SS+SASH+HARDWARE&TYPE=PRODUCT&PARTNUMBER=367040&SDesc=Zinc+Plated(2C)+Sash+Adjuster+Set
The sash adjusters are nice. You can remove them without tools from the inside (only a small mounting bracket stays on the window frame itself), but they also allow you to "lock" the storm sash from the interior (preventing anyone from opening the storm sash from the outside).
The traditional approach is to put the storms up in the winter, and then swap them out with screens (both the screens and the storms use the same hangers at the top of the casings) in the warmer months. However, some of my clients just leave the storm sash up year round. If you can tolerate it, those little screens that expand horizontally can be placed below the bottom sash.
Doug fir is a good choice for sash in your region. I would consider using stock that fits the existing screen rabbet on your windows without modification. Using thicker stock can still be done, but it requires a couple of extra steps, like rabbeting the top and sides of the storm sash, and using some filler blocks to mount the adjusters. If you look closely in the picture, you'll see some (unpainted) blocks that required in this particular installation, which used 1-3/8" thick storm sash which was rabbeted to fit in a 3/4" screen rabbet.
Hope you have fun with your project!
View Image
In the house I grew up in, some of the wood storms had a narrow section on the bottom that opened out like a little awning window. Couple hinges on the top and some hardware on the sides to hold it open (don't know what it is called).
I did 24 storms a couple of years ago. They work great! I applied stick EPDM "D-Type" weatherstrip on the top and sides and used the Storm Window Adjuster Arms which work to pull the storms tight into the weatherstrip.
Killian Hardware must have started carrying them, so you can find them here: http://www.kilianhardware.com/storwinad.html.
From SWMBO, who works in glass...
Laminated glass, uninsulated (here on Long Island)runs about $7 sq.ft. uncut sheets. Pros: usually has UV inhibitors, cons: the price
Scratch resistant lexan may be an option.
Go to http://www.saflex.com to see glass options, but not prices.
Hi and once again thank you all for your responses. Ragnar--your storms look great and seem appropriate for the home, on which I believe vinyl would not be appropriate. Thanks also for all the info. I think mine may be like yours, a bit thicker than the trim so therefore with rabbets. Rasher, thanks for the words of encouragement and the link. Calvin, thanks for the info on Dino. I found on Taunton's search engine the issue I need, now to find it in my stacks. Peakbagger, thank you too for the link to the glass site, pricing info and the idea for scratch resistant lexan. Do you know what the acoustic properties of lexan? And will it craze or yellow over time? And thanks for the link to saflex. From their site map, they may have a plant or sales office not too far from here. I am not yet sure whom I will buy the glass from since it will be pretty expensive. Once again, thanks all. Rob
Are you thinking of putting the 'Storm Window Adjusters' on all your windows, or just selected ones? I'm thinking just a few (like bathrooms and kitchen) where we might particularly want venting during the winter.It seems like without screens in place, the adjusters have a limited usefulness. Do you think there is a design where both the screen and the storm could be in place at the same time? I keep mulling this over. I have some windows where changing out the storms for screens will be a pain in the neck. I'd like to leave the storms on these year round, but there are perhaps times where opening them would be nice.I think I have seen another version of the adjuster that is mounted on the bottom stile, horizontally. It requires just one. I'll have to look more.
I am thinking of the adjusters on some but not all of the windows. One of the nice things about the Bay Area is it never gets really too hot because of the fog and Bay winds etc. We rarely need to open more than one or two windows in a room. The most important rooms for the adjuster are, as you point out, the bathrooms and kitchen. One thing I may play around with is trying to put something like a casement window, top hinged, on the bottom half of the storm sash in a few of the units. I do not know if there would be room for the crank mechanism though. It also may require slightly wider stiles and rails. I'll start with the simpler ones. Thanks again.I have another question about the adjusters. Do they have some type of quick release for emergency egress?ThanksRob
Edited 3/6/2008 11:25 am ET by robman
That's an interesting question about a quick release on the adjusters. Absent the adjusters, the window just pushes out, provided you can release the hook. That one adjuster has a retainer clip for removal, but I don't see that as being something one would notice in an emergency. Not sure either how well the screws stay in, ie if you push hard, will the screws just strip out? Or the hinge pin break?I think that is something to take up with the store/manufacturer.
I have another question about the adjusters. Do they have some type of quick release for emergency egress?
The sash adjusters can be detached without tools, and then the storm sash can be pushed open without limitation.
Whether this arrangement would meet legal egress requirements is a question to which I don't know the answer.
I am going to hazard a guess that they don't. IIRC the rule is 3 moves to unlock and open an egress window or door. But using that rule no storm I know of meets the codes because you have to count the motions needed to open the primary window as well.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Marvin makes a wooden version of the dreaded aluminum triple-track storms. Pretty pricey, though.I just had some storms made for my circa 1864 windows. I had a local guy make the frames for 50 bucks each, then I bought thermal-pane glass from a local glass shop for 100 dollars a sash. stainless hangers online for about 8 bucks a set. I did the glass install, priming and painting. I have had no condensation anywhere on any of the windows I've done that way, and the thermal-pane really cuts the noise way down. I'll probably leave most of them in place this summer, and may look into sash adjusters for couple that I need to open for breezes in the summer.Steve
I bought old fashioned wood storms from Adams Architectural in Iowa (http://www.adamsarch.com) You can get storms made with only glass, or with a screen on the outside and glass inserts that remove from the inside.
The storms are reasonable in cost, although you have to pay shipping. The company makes a quality product.
I second the Adams Architectural recommendation. I bought some old-fashioned super custom double hung windows from them a couple of years ago and they did an awesome job.
I'd definitely consider getting a quote from them for the storms.
Laminated glass is used around airports to reduce noise. It can be costly though, as per the previous post. Most storms are made from 1/8" dsb glass, while standard laminated is a nominal 1/4" thick. Laminated glass will not shatter, but is suseptable to stress runs from the edges. If you do go with laminated, shop it around because there are often different price structures for glass based upon how much the glass shop buys. Cash always seems to bring larger discounts (LOL)!