Replies

1. 
   Geoffrey | Jul 12, 2007 06:38am | #1

   Question:
   Anybody put new storm windows on (about $1000), maybe 2-3 years prior to installing replacement windows? If so, is it possible to order vinyl replacements without any screens (since the storms will have the screens)?

   First, where are you located?, weather matters, Second, do you have Eastern or Western style casing? Western style has a blind stop, which is where the storm mounts. Most replacement windows have the channel for the screen built-in, this channel will bump into the storm window and prevent proper installation of the replacement window. You could inquire about omitting the screen channel. I would ask the manufacturer if they could accomodate you or not. You would buy the storms now then the replacements later, but things might get complicated if you wait a few years to purchase the replacements,if this is not SOP for them.

   I would put some high quality storms (Harvey Industies is a great one) in white, on the windows and you'd be good for 15-20 yrs. You just painted the wood sashes so the're good to go, and the new storms should give you 15 yrs. or better, and they have the full screens,  you can order the storms with Low-e as well, which will help save the wood sashes as well. That's the route I'd go.  For a typical 88 U.I. storm w/Low-e, and Aluminum wire screen(more durable) instead of fiberglass,it would run you about $130 plus tax. You do the math, 'cause I don't know how many windows you have. :)

                                      Geoff

                                         

   
   

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   Edited 7/11/2007 11:39 pm ET by Geoffrey

2. 
   Ragnar17 | Jul 12, 2007 07:06am | #2

   Rasher,

   I think modern screens probably cost about $1 at the factory, so I don't think you'll get any huge discount one way or the other.

   I live on the west coast, so I'm unaware of the difference in casing and/or blind stop that Geoff brought up in the previous post. 

   For what it's worth, I've never had any problems installing vinyl units in traditional frames.  What I do is order the vinyl unit without the fins.  Then I just install the complete vinyl unit where the primary sash used to be (you'll have to remove the parting bead and the pulleys, of course).  The way I do it, the vinyl unit is simply trapped in place by the blind stop (on the exterior) and the stops (on the interior).  It looks pretty nice since all the molding is still intact (including the stool, which does not need to be removed) and it goes very quickly.

   One of the big questions I have is why you'd want to replace your existing primary sash if you went to the trouble of getting them mechanically operational and fitted with storms, too.  At that point, you've got a pretty good system.  Of course, I haven't seen them -- maybe they're pretty ratty.

   And speaking of the existing storm sash, what exactly do you mean by mill finish?  Is it just an aluminum storm window?  This might be a dumb idea, but would there be any way to paint them to make them not so ugly?  If you're only talking about a two to three year service life, that may not be too difficult to achieve.

   
   

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   Edited 7/12/2007 12:08 am ET by Ragnar17

1. 
   rasher | Jul 12, 2007 10:24pm | #3

   Well, the old storm windows are pretty much junk. It's only a single track system, so you have to take out and store the glass panes when you want screens in. Not acceptable for a rental house.The primaries ARE pretty ratty, but not any more so than every other rental house in my town, so maybe we can just put off the replacements for longer than we expect.Wifey's starting to lean towards the storm window option...

2. 
   Geoffrey | Jul 13, 2007 04:03am | #8

   Hey Ragnar,

   just to clarify, a replacement window is considered to be installed in the space where the old sashes were, anything with a nailing fin is considered "new construction" , because it is being installed into a rough opening, even if it's the old one(frame removed).

   The problem I mentioned is not with installation of the new replacement itself, but if the OP installs the storms and then wants to leave them in place when he installs the new replacements, this is where he will have problems.Western style casings have the replacement window mounted against the blind stop(from inside) as you mentioned.When installing storm windows they also mount on the blind stop, but from the outside, the two can not co-exist. You will have to eliminate the storms or go with a sash-only type replacement system if you want to keep the storms, or make the existing windows suitable to leave in place and install just the new storms. Which is what I would recommend.

   Eastern style casings have no blind stop, so storms get mounted to the face of the exterior trim. BTW , I'm assuming he's using "triple track" style storms which have the screen included.

                                                             Geoff

    

1. 
   Ragnar17 | Jul 13, 2007 08:05am | #10

   anything with a nailing fin is considered "new construction"

   Never thought of it that way, but it makes sense.  Kind of like "new construction" or "remodel" electrical boxes.

   new replacements.... [and] storm windows....can not co-exist.

   I'm not going to contradict your own experience, but I want to point out that the method I've used did, in fact, allow the two to coexist.  I'm sure success or failure is highly dependent on the way both the storm sash and replacement sash are designed.  But if no part of the vinyl unit is proud of the storm/sash rabbet, and if the screen/storm fits within its alloted space, there is no dimensional conflict.

   Just saying that it can be done.

    

   Eastern style casings have no blind stop,

   I'm used to the top sash being constrained by the parting bead and the blind stop.  If there's no blind stop in Eastern style frames, what constrains the top sash then?

    

   Kind regards,

   Ragnar

    

3. 
   GRCourter | Jul 13, 2007 02:50am | #4

   By trade/industry defination a "storm window is only 95% air tight.  You take it from there.

1. 
   Geoffrey | Jul 13, 2007 03:01am | #5

   <By trade/industry defination a "storm window is only 95% air tight.>

   Can you give us an air infiltration rate?, which,I think,is a more reliable "industry definition". I've never heard of the definition you're using. A good quality storm is rated at .04 CFM/sq.ft.(air infiltration rate). Can you tell me where "95% air tight" falls in relation to a CFM/sq. ft. rating? 

                                              Geoff

    

    

1. 
   GRCourter | Jul 13, 2007 04:00am | #7

   Well lets see.  If there is complete infiltration then it is 1.00 cfm and at 95% efficiency it would be well.. ..05 cfm (on or about).  The statement that I made could could mean that I am  dating myself, but in the 1950's the Humphrey Storm Window was the benchmark of the storm window industry and their statement was "95% airtight, the best in the business".  I have not been able to locate a stormwindow that has a lower U Factor than .95. Now lets look at "storm window". Created in the days of the single glaze wood window.  By adding a storm window you extended the life of the paint and the glazing compound as well as when a storm came the window helped reduce the air infiltration to the warm side.  Storm windows were never an insulating factor they reduced the effects of the storm.  Initially they were storm panels that were interchanged with screen panels in the summer months.  Then it became a combination storm & screen. 

1. 
   Geoffrey | Jul 13, 2007 07:40am | #9

   GR,

       < I have not been able to locate a stormwindow that has a lower U Factor than .95.>

   Was that with or with-out a Low-e coating?

   < By adding a storm window you extended the life of the paint and the glazing compound as well as when a storm came the window helped reduce the air infiltration to the warm side.  Storm windows were never an insulating factor>

    I agree on the intent to protect the sashes/paint and glazing from the weather. BUT on the second half of your comment....you contradict yourself, reducing air infiltration does in fact increase the insulating factor of a window.

   The U-factor is a measure of the rate of heat transfer, air infiltration affects that transfer rate. A well installed storm will improve the R value of a given window. By lowering the U-factor you increase the R value of the window. Being an insulator may not have been a primary intent of storm windows, but it certainly was a secondary intent, by reducing drafts you help keep the place warm, as you stated. So maybe they were intended to do both.

                   Geoff

2. 
   Ragnar17 | Jul 13, 2007 09:13am | #11

   Storm window manufacturers use standardized tests to determine an infiltration rate in units of cubic feet per minute PER lineal foot of perimeter -- i.e., cfm/ft.  For whatever reason, primary windows express air infiltration in units of cfm/ft^2.

   It's difficult to find actual numbers for air infiltration --- it appears at present to be an optional piece of information that a manufacturer may (or may not) wish to print in the literature.

   I did find this, however: http://www.harveyind.com/product_info/storm_windows/tru_channel.asp#fastFacts

   Note that their listed infiltration value is 0.04 cfm/lf; a 3'x5' window would thus have about 0.64 cfm of infiltation under test conditions. (3'+3'+5'+5' = 16 LF; (16 lf)(0.04 cfm/lf) = 0.64 cfm)

   Although U-values and air infiltation are ultimately related since they will both effect total heat transfer, they are entirely different concepts.  I'm not sure whether I'm putting words in your mouth, but your post seems to be unclear on this.

   There may be some colloquial definition of a storm window being intended to"reduce the effects of the storm".  In practice, however, a storm window can be quite effective at reducing both air infilration AND heat loss due to conductive, convective, and radiative heat transfer. 

   A primary sash and storm sash provide two separate glass panes and a volume of air between them; conceptually, this is the same as a double-pane window.  In fact, this arrangement has existed for hundreds of years because it DOES improve thermal performance.  The only real difference between this old system and a modern double-pane unit is the distance of separation between the two panes.  Glass coatings, weatherstripping, etc., can all be installed on a storm sash system just as a double-pane window.  I guess the only thing that can't be done is to fill the air volume with exotic gases.

   Hope that helps the discussion somewhat.

   Edited 7/13/2007 3:10 am ET by Ragnar17

3. 
   junkhound | Jul 13, 2007 04:02pm | #12

   Storm windows were never an insulating factor ... BS!

   Boy is that news to me - and to parents, back thru probably great-great grandparents.

   For people like most on this board who can actually do something for themselves, IG is one of the alltime big ripoffs.. read on...

   Anybody in the midwest knew at least as early as 1900 that when you put up the 'storm windows' in in the fall, you put newspapers in all the cracks so that when there was the first good wind , you could never feel ANY air blowing thru when you passed your hand all the way aroung the perephery.

   Grandma's house had 15 storm windows on DH windows. It usually took me 4-5hrs to put up her SW in the fall and get them sealed when a teen in the 50's.

   BTW, my own home insulated glass has about 70% of the panes fogged after 33 years, as I replace them, I put in 'permanent' 'storm windows' with EPDM seals on aluminum frames, something I can clean in ten years vs. having to put out $$ (or tme to make the glass units) for insulated glass.  

   IMnsHO, the life cycle cost of 'insulated glass' units is HIGHER than a sealed 'storm window'.  Insulated glass may be fine as a way to rip off the AVERAGE consumer over time, but putting IG on own house in the 1970's was the worst desing mistake I made on own house.

   Now of course, they are required by about every code, no allowances for 'storm windows' .. a big conspiracy, just like 'prescriptive' assinine codes. 

    

   RANT TIME??????? 

1. 
   rasher | Jul 13, 2007 05:33pm | #13

   Well, I don't know whether I have eastern or western style casings. I live smack in the center of the midwest (Kansas City)! House was built in the '20s.
   I know I do have a blind stop that is ~3/4" thick. The storms would screw into the blind stop, inside the perimeter of the exterior casing trim.
   For discussion purposes, we restored the original WOODEN storm sashes that came with our 1880s era house with new glass and EPDM weatherstripping. Our gas heating bill went down 40% in 12 months. So while the insulative properties of storm windows is negligible, the drastic reduction in air infiltration is quantifiably valuable.I think the CFO (wifey) is prepared to let me do it. But now I've got two problems that hopefully someone can shed some light on: Window AC units. I have two window ACs in the house. How do I install storms in those windows?

2. 
   Ragnar17 | Jul 14, 2007 06:46am | #15

   So while the insulative properties of storm windows is negligible, the drastic reduction in air infiltration is quantifiably valuable.

   Storm sash DOES contribute to the insulative value of the window system.  As I said in my post to GRC, there is conceptually no difference between a storm/primary window system and a double-pane window. 

   I have two window ACs in the house. How do I install storms in those windows?

   Unfortunately, I think your best option is to pull the AC units out at the end of the summer.  Other than that, you could put a partial-height storm sash above them. 

   Even if you had a new double-pane window, you'd be in the same boat when it comes to the AC units.

3. 
   Ragnar17 | Jul 14, 2007 06:17am | #14

   Now of course, they are required by about every code, no allowances for 'storm windows' .. a big conspiracy, just like 'prescriptive' assinine codes. 

   I'm in 100% agreement with you, junkhound!

4. 
   Piffin | Jul 13, 2007 03:35am | #6

   For a rental house where you have already invested in painting the sashes and they operate, I would just get new combination storms. I just replaced some good sized ones with quality units for $125 each plus labour. A decent DH plus a good storm will do you quite well compared to new replacements in some areas.

   Keep in mind that combination storms willl only effectively haave a single hung screen though

    

    

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