Strange Plumbing Problem following Bath
First of all, I’m an architect by profession (mostly large commercial work) and don’t claim to be an expert in plumbing, particularly residential. I do have a basic knowledge, which may be just enough to get me in trouble sometimes.
Here’s the issue. My wife and I hired a design build company to remodel our master bath. Part of the remodel was changing around the shower fixtures and installing a new spa-type tub (Bain Ultra) to replace a jacuzzi type tub. Also, installation of new tile in the area of the tub/shower.
This past Monday, the workers demoe’d the old shower, tub and tile in preparation for the new stuff. Of course, they had to turn the water off until they had the lines plugged. New tub was set Tuesday and plumbing was re-arranged at the shower and tub, adding a diverter valve in shower for a hand-held and also a hand held in the spa tub.
We didn’t use the bath, but on Saturday, following the completion of the tile work, we went to give our 4-yr old twins a bath in their tub, which is served by same water heater as our master bath. You guessed it, no hot water. I then tried the lavatories in the kids bath and also in our master bath. Same thing, no hot water. Checked water heater and pilot was lit and exit line from tank was hot. So what would cause this. Informed contractor this morning and, of course he is saying that nothing he did could have caused this. Even though all was well prior to last Monday.
Shower has a single mixing valve with an additional divertor valve for the hand held. Tub has hot and cold fill valves w/spout and an additional divertor valve for a hand-held. I have no drawings for the house but it’s only 5 yrs old. I do know that our shower in the master bath may be first in line from the heater tank because hot water reached it very quickly.
Could the way they installed the mixing valve at shower or the divertor valve cause this? They used Pex for all new fittings and piping, where it was needed. I also have heard that plumbers sometimes use bread to plug a line when soldering, could this be a cause?
Anyone have any other ideas or comments?
Thanks.
Jim Cloutman
Covington, LA
Replies
wow this board amazes me
how uncanny
I come here this morning to ask almost same question
I tore into a wall & replaced shower mixer valve, replaced tile etc.. and now the water heater has gone on vacation
I know too much about electric water heaters but nothing of gas
Is there some thermocoupler esque device that senses no water coming in and shuts down the gas supply?
We await your sound advice, thanks
John:
Is the water heater stone cold? Do you get hot water anywhere in the house?
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Bread would have disolved by now. I bet the hot supply line from the water heater went to the jacuzi tub first, then on to the other bathroom in series, and they did not reconnect it properly. Does the new spa tub have hot water?
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
FE,
I can't tell because the fixtures aren't installed yet in either the tub or the shower. I'm afraid that you're right, though and that at least some of the new tile work is going to have to be removed to re-access the piping. Shouldn't the plumber have checked the hot water supply prior to everything being closed up?
Water heater pilot is lit and discharge pipe is hot. To me this means that the heater is working. My feeling is that 5 yrs is too young for a water heater to go out. Also, one other thing. When running one of the lav's in the master bath to test for hot water, I recall that "occasionally" the temperature of the water would get slightly warmer for a second and then right back to cold. This seems to me like the hot water is either being divered, mixed, or being prevented from getting to where it needs to.
Jim Cloutman
Covington, LA
Check the tep setting on the hot water tank. They may had to relight the tank and forgot to turn it up past the piolt setting
But if the discharge pipe feels hot, there's not enough btu input from the pilot to do that."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
If your Master Bath is indeed first in line from the water heater, then some bone head could conceivably have directly connected the hot to the new plumbing without T'ing the pipe on down the line. However, this would leave a piece of pipe hanging and is highly unlikely.
When you say "no hot water" do you mean no water of any kind, or just cold when using the hot faucets? To test this, turn off the cold supply under the lav sinks and test the hots. If you get no water at all, then my highly unlikely scenario may be true. If you just get cold, then look elsewhere.
Is there hot water anywhere else in the house?
Basically, troubleshooting this is logically easy. Just 'walk' your way up/over from the water heater, and find the point where the hot stops.
WindowsGuy,
When I checked it, I turned on the hot water valves and got cold water out of the lavatory faucets (all 4 of them in 2 baths). I also checked and the supply valves were open under the vanity. I did not check by turning off the cold supply and see if I still got cold water out of the hot because I wasn't smart enough to think of that.
We have hot water in the kitchen, laundry and 3rd bath, but they run off of a different heater.
Just got a call from the wife and the contractor is there with the plumbers. They think that the problem is that the shower mixing valve doesn't have the proper guts, or possibly no guts. They are on their way to the supply house to get what they need and come back and install. I don't know if that makes any sense, but I hope that's what it is. It still seems strange that this would affect all other fixtures.
Jim Cloutman
Covington, LA
>>They think that the problem is that the shower mixing valve doesn't have the proper guts, or possibly no guts. Uh...no. That's a story. Unless they connected all the other hot water fixtures on that branch (i.e., your other bathroom) in series w/ your new shower valve (in other words, you'd have to turn ON your shower for there to be any hot water delivered downstream), a malfunctioning mixing valve is irrelevant. And if they did plumb it in series, they're idiots.Can't you see the new valve body and it's connections? Or is it totally buried now? If so, take a pic and post it.
No,
Unfortunately everything's buried behind tile now. Also unfortunately was that we hadn't given the kids a bath when everything was still exposed. Otherwise, we would have realized the problem prior to everything being covered up. You tend to take for granted that the people doing the work know what they are doing.
I'm not sure what replacing the valve guts or adding valve guts is going to accomplish, but I'm certainly not going to accept having to turn on the shower to get hot water to any other fixture down the line.
I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens.
Jim Cloutman
Covington, LA
Well it was almost certainly mis-plumbed somehow. They do need to fix it, whatever it takes. If they were smart, they would have done what most of us do and TAKE PICTURES of their work before they bury it. That way they can prove that, indeed, it was done right, and any potential problem "wasn't their fault".
Well,
I don't know that I understand it, but the wife called and said they installed the missing part and the hot water is back working at the various fixtures. Apparently, the explanation they gave my wife was that with the part missing, the cold water was looping through the mixing valve and preventing the hot from getting through. This would indicate to me that the master bath lavatories and the kids' bathroom are all beyond the shower mixing valve.
Since they didn't change any piping other than that which served the shower mixing valve and additions of divertor valves to spa tub and shower, it must have always been piped this way. Seems kinda strange, but this is certainly not the strangest thing I've come across in this house.
Big test will be when the fixtures are installed at shower and spa tub. Hopefully we still get hot water at these?!
Thanks to all of you that responded. I'll let you know how it turns out. I've also learned that I should take my own pictures of the work in the future.
Jim Cloutman
Covington, LA
Archy
Shortly after we moved into our home 14 yrs ago the hot quit on the shower at the end of the run. Builder replaced a cartridge and we have had hot there ever since.
But this was a two handled shower.
HTH
That sounds like BS."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Sounds like they are looking for the easiest "fix" to this situation.
If and when they "fix" the guts, make sure that you test all the fixtures that have been effected without your tub turned on. If you still don't have hot water in any of the other fixtures they plumbed it wrong and it will have to be re-done.
I don't think the "faulty" guts in your shower would effect the rest of the fixtures in your house.
ThanksBarney
One of two possibilities:
1) They got hot and cold confused along the way and somewhere have the "hot" pipe connected to cold.
2) One of the single-handle controls is faulty and is allowing cold water into the hot line.
Dan, either of your scenarios would mean they had effectively created a 'mixing valve' and all he would get is warm water at the other fixtures...but he said it was stone cold, no?Anyhow, now it appears to be fixed... By replacing a "cartridge" (I'm now assuming a single-handle valve), therefore neither of your assumptions were correct. But I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this one. If the single cartridge was defective and somehow allowed the cold and the hot to mix---and pass through---he'd again have warm water elsewhere, rather than cold as he reported. But if it was defective in such a way as to completely stem the hot from the valve at the new shower, how could this affect anything downstream?Still sounds like a story to me.
I piggy backed / hijacked this thread on the second or third replyI tore out a half wall of tile & replaced mixing valve etc
new backer & tile and the 24 hrs until I trimmed out that new mixer after grouting they had no hot water nor even luke warmthe gas water heater sounded good and felt warm at times & cold at times
turned the water back on and pulled the flow restrictor on the kitchen faucet to flush the lines & low & behold that sucker got hot Eureka!definitely have installed a number of shower valves - don't know if the mixer was different; the house was not occupied or the majority have been two handles but that was a first for mesalud, John
John,
From what you describe, it sounds like maybe debris in the hot water tank may have settled and temporarily blocked the discharge line. Once you took the flow restrictors out of the kitchen (?) faucet, there was enough movement to dislodge the obstruction. The feasibility of this is proportional to the age of the water heater. The older the heater, the more likely it would have calcium deposits.
Another possibility is that the shower valve you installed was temporarily stuck and required a slight pressure increase to get un-stuck. I know that on larger commercial projects, we have had problems with PRV's (pressure reducing valves) being very finiky and not working properly at first. Could be a similar issue with mixing valves, but I'm not that familiar with the shower mixing valves (obviously).
Bottom line is I'm glad you got your problem resolved.
Jim Cloutman
Covington, LA
Pinko,
What we have fot the shower is a single lever valve (presumably Delta) and a second "divertor" valve that will operate a handheld shower wand. This whole issue apparently revolved around the single lever shower valve that I call a mixing valve since it can be preset to provide a certain temperature water at full open position.
Explanation given by the contractor (presumably through the plumber) was that some of the mixing valves come with the "guts" and some don't. This one apparently didn't. The plumber apparently obtained the guts (a cratridge from what I can gather) and installed it. Now all is back to normal. They said that what was happening was that since the required cartridge was not in place, the cold water was looping through and either not allowing the hot to enter at all, or was mixing with the hot. I don't believe the latter because water at other locations was "cold" from the hot tap, not luke warm. I still don't really understand it, but all I can figure is that the original contractor that built the house must have piped it in such a way that it daisy-chained from one fixture to the next. Even if the spa tub was served first and the shower second, the remaining lavatories and the entire kid's bath must have come after the shower. The shower valve was preventing the hot water from traveling beyond it because of the missing cartridge.
Iguess one would have to see a schematic of the mixing valve and what the cartridge does to understand it. I also suppose, based on other things in the house, that this is a "cheap" way to do it. I guess if it all works in the end, it's ok. If I ever loose hot water down the road and I determine it's not the tank, I'll know to be suspicious of the shower valve.
Thanks again for everyone's help.
Jim Cloutman
Covington, LA
I'm glad it's working for you, but like others have said, the explanation makes little sense.
I think I would ask that the plumber draw up a diagram for you of exactly what the install looks like. Tell him it's for your house file.
It's not really that complicated. Without guts in the valve, you are basically connecting the cold water supply directly to the hot water supply. Your hot water is fed with sort of a "trunk" that branches off to various fixtures. Then when you open a hot tap further down the line, the cold water is entering this trunk line via the shower valve rather than from the water heater like it's supposed to. I had sort of a similar experience with a shower valve in a brand new house. We had the wrong shower valve, and everything seemed to work (but the shower). When we got the right cartridge, we lost everything on the hot side everywhere. Turned out the plumber had not connected the hot water to the water heater, but had some sort of closed loop that was fed through that faulty shower valve.
Well, this sho is an interesting thread!I still say your contractor/plumber is BS-ing you.First of all, I'm quite familiar w/ the common Delta single-handle valves, as I've installed and repaired dozens of them (I prefer and recommend Delta valves). On un-packing the new valve from the box, the cartridge is OUT and is put IN after the valve is mounted and sweated in. Anyone marginally competent in doing such a procedure would have immediately 'noticed' the lack of a cartridge in the box, and immediately returned it... Now, the cartridge may have been 'lost', or 'forgotten' to be installed, but the valve most certainly wasn't "missing the guts".Second of all, functionally, if the cartridge was absent, as others have noted, you'd have effectively created a 'mixing valve' w/ your new shower valve body as it would be a direct hot to cold short. All water (hot and cold) on that circuit would now be warm. BUT, practically, without the cartridge, the valve would have spurted water out of the cap/trim as soon as the supply was turned on! Try it yourself...it's easy to remove the cartridge w/ just a screwdriver (turn off the water first!). Note how the valve body is now just an empty cylinder w/ two open ports in the back--one to the cold and one to the hot supplies. Observe how the valve handle receiver is now just a hole, and water--if it were on--would easily blast through the trim piece.. No cartridge = big mess.I've no idea what their mistake was; I'm glad it's fixed, but their explanation can't be right.
I can't help but to agree with you because what you say makes more sense than what was explained, but as goes with many construction mishaps, I'm sure I'll never know the real story. As you say, the good thing is that it is fixed. Although they still haven't hooked up the spa tup and shower trim so I haven't yet been able to determine whether they work properly. Some of this is supposed to happen today. I can't wait to get home. :(
Thanks for the input!
I am not quite following the state of repairs for your house, but your mention of mixing valve reminded me of my parent's house. Their original hot water heater was 80 gallon commercial type. I assume the water temperature setting for commercial use would be set high. In order for residential use, the plumbers had attached a mixing valve above the water heater itself with looping pipes that added cold water to the valve. I think they did this because at that time this type of hot water supply was best they could do for assured supply of hot water in a larger house.
Could this be the case in your house? Your plumbers did not actually repair the valves in the bathroom, but repaired the valve in the utility room?
Hope this helps,
No. All work is contained within the bathroom. I checked the water heater myself and there are no mixing devices located on or around it.The problem has been fixed. The way it is explained to me is that there were no guts within the universal valve shell that was installed and the cold water was able to mix with (and overpower) the hot water, keeping it from getting to the other fixtures. I'm not 100% sure how that was possible, but that is what happened. Once the "guts" (in this case the shower valve cartridge) was installed, preventing the cross-flow from happening, everything was back to normal.Thanks for the suggestion, though.
Iam sorry to be too late to this discussion.
I have just completed a "borderline rediculous " bath room project.
At one point of the project, the HO called me and wanted to know why their toilet in another room was steaming, and they had no hot water in the same room shower.
Turned out to be some sleepless nights but I figured out what happened. - If you are satisfied with your out come good.
If you want to know more, ask and I'll tell you what happened in this scenario.
It ended up being a rough-in bridge, through a tub feed, hot to cold short, capped off, no way to tell if the valves were shut u7ntil trim out. Everything was fine once we knew, or could find a way to make sure that one of the tub valves were shut.
Long story. But I'll type it if ya want.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City