Hey everyone, we are looking to put new street signs up throughout our city. two different prototypes have been made and installed.
The first is a nice sign and is 2000 per each, installed.
The next is nice too but only 700 each, installed.
Is it worth it to go with the pricier sign? We need 212 signs citywide.
Tell me what you think.
<!—-> <!—-><!—->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
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Replies
Neither. Too much. Why not just a standard sign like the one at right angles to the 2000 number?
John
I personally like the pricier one better. They have more character and look more welcoming IMHO.
If I had Splinities silver tongue, I could tell people off without them ever realizing it!!!!!
Why not ask the folks who will be paying the bill?
renosteinke
That's why we elect officals.. to make those decisions for us.. Pete is taking an extra step to get input so he can make a solid decision.. I applaud him for that..
$424,000 for signs? Surely there is a better use of city money, like better parks for kids, or a new fire truck.
The sand blasted redwood one look much better than the flat one. You should make sure that the signs are compliant with federal standards however or the town may be required to remove them. There are guidelines on the size of the text, the color contact, and reflectivity that need to be met. All street signs (including highway signs) are defined in the MUTCD (manual of uniform trafic control devices). http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interpretations/2_603.htm
Assuming the signs are compliant, you should find out the exact material used to manufacture them. The flat one appears to be adhesive vinyl, but that comes in many grades, from a 2 year calandared to a 9 year cast (after 9 years, then vinyl will fade, crack or peel away).
The sandblased sign looks nice, but is it redwood or signfoam? Signfoam is a better material choice and can be blasted or routed to look like redwood.
Both look like a maintainance nightmare to me. I see those things breaking in a windstorm hanging on one hook.
What material are the posts?
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
And who is going to maintain ie. paint these signs once installed. It sure is a nice idea but the cost does outweigh the benefit.
Hey Pete,
The 2nd sign looks like something a realtor would put up in a front yard. It's painted nice but it's not classy, if that's what you're aiming for.
However, the 2K sign is a little (lot) too pricey. Looks like a masked and sandblasted product. That process turns out a decent sign. I don't know how the masks are made these days. Most likely a computer program controlling a roll of material much like a large scale printer with the manual labor to pick out the waste.
Maybe it's the painting that drives the cost up.
Now that you have a prototype, RFQ to some other fabricators. Bet you'll find a bunch on-line.
You got city maintenance people on board who could dig a few extra holes between coffee breaks. No need to pay extra to whoever supplys the signs.
2 thousand dollars per each for a street sign ???
What are you ? Liberal ?
;o)
Life is what happens when you would rather be finishing your own house.
Personally I'd get regular metal signs. I really dislike neighbohoods that try to spruce up the place with nonsense.
Plant more trees. Put in more parks. A multi-use path conecting parks.
Fancy signs look like woman realtor has had her way. And at your expense.
Go big, what the heck it's not your money.
Neither both seem to be a waste of hard earned tax payer money. Put it to a vote and waste more money, ya thats the idea.
Why all new signs? What do you have now? Is it uniform can it be refurbished? If more than one style you can pick one that's workable maybe retrofit the rest of the town.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.drawingwithlight.smugmug.com
no matter how U dress it up it'll still be cleveland ....
anyways ... I like the bigger new metal ones I've seen.
good for day and night driving.
will either of those catch and reflect headlights?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
""no matter how U dress it up it'll still be cleveland ...."" naw , he lives and is a councilman in Seven Hills. Suburb where all the pubs moved to to avoid the high cost of city upkeep and waste of their tax dollars in Cleve. Cleveland probably can't afford used signs much less new ones at that cost .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Buck
"no matter how U dress it up it'll still be cleveland ...."
Youse got nothing on Cleveland....I've been to Pittsburg......I was youse I wouldn't look down my nose @ Cleveland.
Least they got a baseball team to speak of!!!!
http://www.grosshillrentals.com
they're both a waste of money...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You have a point there - for that kind of money, Pete could probably buy a GPS for every citizen and then they would not need street signs!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ROFLMAO! Do they get to pick the brand of GPS?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
for that kind of money...
why not...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'd say that Breaktime has Brokedown and failed Pete.After over 160 posts, he's goin' over all of your heads to a professional.Probably a good idea....
Our company nearly went bust by paying people to tell our managers what they wanted to hear. Pete is early on the learning curve. The consultant will cost more than the signs, which says you can now add diamonds to the gold plating.
Cheapest consultants? Salesmen. Ask all the sign vendors to send out salesmen. Then sift the BS they give you. Most folks can easily take sales info and digest it. That is just the clumps in the litter box. People who fear salesmen are nuts. They bring you info for free. We used to set aside one half day a month for vendors. It was really useful and very illuminating. For real fun, pit one against the other and then sit back and watch!http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
In the late '70's, I was employed by a large wood products firm who hired a time management consulting firm to come in and assess the productivity of our plant (at a seven figure fee).I was a night foremen with a trade maintenance crew and had a guy follow me around night after night all night and every night for several shifts.One night I asked him how he got into the efficiency study business. He confessed that two weeks prior he'd been layed off as a salesman for a pleasure boat company.
Those who can't do, teach
Those who can't teach, teach PE
Those who can't teach PE, sell
Those who can't sell, sell insurance
Those who can't sell insurance, start consulting firms. http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Do those who do construction consulting come here?
Don't those guys troll the Tavern so they can get info on how to advise Pete? :-)http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
No, it's those guys that have the home handyman shows on Saturday AM radio that do that.
I'm gonna leave Pete alone now....he's going to think I'm picking on HIM...and I don't intend to be.
I agree. It is amazing though how quickly one can be eaten up by the process, and the attendant costs that go with it. I am not anti-government per se, but the process of government and its decision making is cumbersome at times. And, its funny because a relatively small topic like signs can blow up on ya whereas fixing sewer pipes won't get you any guff from the public.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
To be fair, my experience working in the private sector for a number of years and for a couple of corporate giants, the difference, sometimes, between the private and public sectors is that the private sector rarely has to air its linen.I saw a lot of sometimes expensive stupidity get shoved forever into dusty file cabinets.
Its an interesting contrast. I find that there are three basic models for business behaviour: Govt style, public corporation style, and private corporation style. Each has its own culture of decision making. Any corporation that answers directly to Wall Street has the lowest ethics for the long run.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Interesting story in yesterday's PlainDealer where a local Cleveland area city is planning on selling their old road signs to help offset the cost of their new ones.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
Click here to visit the beginning of Breaktime
Those who can't sell become real estate brokers. Then they can "negotiate" a lower price for the their client, the seller, and still get their ridiculously high commission.
There's a couple of good reasons why street signs have a standardized appearance; one hundred years of evolution and because they're easier to find at a glance when driving through an intersection.
If individual HOs want something different they should design and build something like this photo.
the weeds optional???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
the weeds optional???
LOL. Pretty expensive weeds, those annuals. I suspect that they're supposed to look like wild flowers by the side of the road.
People in SoCal spend phenomenal amounts of money on their flower beds, every year.
I often ride a few miles on a bike path adjacent to a new bus line route built on a former rail road bed.
The city of L.A. paid almost one million dollars per mile to plant thousands of perennials along that route and to install a sprinkler system for it. The flowers are mostly stuff like the "weeds" in the photo.
I must give the landscapers the respect they deserve Even though the price is outrageous the effect is very pleasant, particularly at a cyclist's pace.
sprinkler system.......
ROAR!!!!!
HEY!!!!!....
we want our water back.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You are right about consultants. When I was a government planner, the governmental units would hire consultants to write reports so they could tell the public--"Hey, it's what the consultant decided was best--we had nothing to do with it." One consultant hadn't gotten the word about what the powers that be wanted in a rec plan and when it was done, the people who hired them put the report on a shelf and hired another consultant to write what they wanted the plan to say.
Danno Along the same lines ever notice how many government agencies hire "Spokesmen". Nitely news "The mayor's spokesmen Had this to say". Why can't the mayor just say it, he had plenty to say during the election, now he needs to hire a spokesmen once in office! Sorry Pete I got off subject just needed to get that one out.Wallyo
Limit your liability and use these:
Wow! I didn't know a flag holder cost $1300!!!
Seriously, I like to evaluate things like this with a view to how they'll look in 10 years. I'm figuring both won't look so good.
Of the two however, the standard metal sign on a metal pole you see everywhere looks far better then the $700 sign.
Runnerguy
Pete---both versions make me think in some instances there will be "line of sight" issues with obscured visibility
BTW--- recently, brifly talked with one of your cousins in cuyahoga falls.
stephen
My major concern would be with the second ones, the signs will be flapping in the wind and that could be a problem. Second one looks less classy, for whatever that's worth.
If I were living in this community and found out that 1 street sign cost $2000, and if you were an elected official I really don't think I would vote for you again. With the economy what it is I think the money for the street signs could be used for better projects. Having lived in the Northeast I know after winter there are no potholes to be fixed?
Edited 4/10/2008 9:06 am ET by GW52
I just don't think you are going to get the bang for your buck with either sign. I would go with a steel post (4x4 for looks - but also durability). The wooden ones will not give you the longevity you need). The Hanging signs will really be a hassle in high winds and because they are swinging away, they will be a natural attraction to the jerks that are going to be out defacing them. Nice brackets and well done metal signs with a nice looking script or border would give you a good look and longevity and ease of maintenance. I don't blame any city administrator wanting to add a nice look to his city - it rubs off on the citizen's too. Done carefully, it can be done without a big increase in money spent. Good luck.
Tell me what you think.
OK, Your 'burb has WAY too much money if even considering either.
Others already commented on the maintenance issue. In 4 years, both will look like ####.
Taking bids on a specific drawing and spec would likely get some local to make and install for lots less. Heck, I could make a good profit building and installing the simpler sing for $150K - say $70 mat'l each sign, could turn out about 10 per day and install 8 per day, leaves some local craftsman with a 2 month job at a good pay, even if he hires 2 local high school helpers full time over the summer.
Somebody else said you had turned 'liberal', must be so with that type spending<G>, or are both current bidders relatives of other board members?
Ya got a shop class at the local high school? Contract it out to the kids, pride of ownership and all that besides.
I totally agree with most of what everyone else has stated.
I don't think either of those choices have much longevity; that is an important part of the decision.
I think the whole thing is a big waste of money and time. What is wrong with what you have? Almost half a million on street signs?? Pete??
[email protected]
I think the first one looks a lot better. Is it worth the cost though, I don't know.
I have to agree with most here, particularly Matthew, that you should follow the MUTCD. Planner types and lots of decision maker types seldom like doing that, but engineers, public works, emergency services and the driving public tend to be proponents. The retroreflectivity is a major advantage for driving at night, and a sign like those would run you about $150 with Diamond Grade film on Al signs and a galvanized post.
You likely don’t need to follow the MUTCD, (I have done a fair amount of traffic engineering in the past, and have been able to avoid using the MUTCD even on State DOT Network roads, but I think that was a mistake), but before deciding on something unique like that I think it is well worth thinking about ramifications of not: Do those signs comply with roadside design guidelines: Break away base, sight lines, spearing risks…? Are you willing to take the liability risk if they don’t? How do emergency services feel about them, and will the affect response time? If you do custom regulatory signs are they enforceable? Does PW like them and will they be able to maintain and replace them on both an emergency and ongoing basis?
Lots to think about. I think the first is better in response to the post, but I would fight both of them in the Town I work for, or the neighboring town that I am on the Council for.
Wow, a lot of questions I see. Good.
The signs are in compliance with all applicable codes and requirements per the DOT
The lettering is highly reflective.
All Hardware is stainless steel or aluminum so there will not be rust issues.
The pricy sign is on a 6X6 cedar post. The sign blanks are sandblasted foam. All is then painted.
The more affordable sign is 4X4 Douglas Fir, the sign blanks are pvc and they are covered with 9-year vinyl.
Costs for the lesser sign are primarily related to the signs at about 130 per panel and then installation which includes the boring of a post hole to 42" X 12" wide and the cost of cement. The hardware is about $20 for the whole sign, paint for the post is minimal and lumber costs are under $50 for the mill to machine the posts in advance, ready for assembly.
The greater sign costs I am not as familiar with at this time.
The city does have a few hundred thousand ear-marked for city beautification projects. The approximate total for the lesser signs is 148,400 and for the greater sign 424,000. The greater sign would have to be done over years to complete all 212 locations throughout the city.
Part of my campaign promise was city image building. Seven Hills is a semi-affluent suburb. We are geographically bordered between some of the areas most affluent suburbs and the areas largest blue-collar suburb, which is also the states 8th largest city. It is a big suburb named Parma.
Our current signs are rusty leaning poles with small metal signs atop.
Furthermore, I have driven around and noted the location and deficiencies of every single light pole in my ward. There are 38 and they mostly look like you know what. See the pic. I have started the ball rolling to have these all repaired as well.
As for parks, we have a very nice park system here and are the first suburb to have completed a section of bike & hike trail that will eventually connect to the National Park land a few miles to our East and a local park system less than a mile to our West.
We have a program in the works to beutify our current business district with brick tree lawns benches and trees. It looks rather unkept now and is on a main road that is also our border with the city of Parma.
We are also very close to groundbreaking on a 400 million dollar development in our city that will be comprised of upscale shopping, housing and office space.
We are also, while I am at it, one of the safest cities in the entire Cleveland area.
We are a city of about 12,000 people, 5,000 homes.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
How much would the street sign in THAT picture cost?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
In the picture you posted, I can see the street lights need some work but the street sign looks alright. :)
For what it's worth, I do a lot of engineering work for various municipalities in the Twin Cities area. Some of these communities are on the list of most affluent cities in the USA, but I can't think of any of them that use wood poles for street signs. The vast majority of them use the standard metal sign on a pole, although some have a limited number of fancier cast iron poles for street signs in downtown or historic areas.
Well heck. 212 signs x $2000= $424,000/ 12,000 = $35.33 ea. for every citizen of the city. Or 212 signs x $2000= $424,000 / 5,000 = $84.00 a household. Why it is a bargain! edit to correct typos.
Edited 4/10/2008 8:18 pm by dovetail97128
$84.00 a household.
Why it is a bargain!
And, like as not, the City already has collected the money, either from taxes or fees or utility sales. Which is no guarantee that some other city depatment, official, or the like has not already squandered that c-note per house, only that, as stated, the cash is there to spend.
Now, better street signage is a great boon to emergency services. My only gripe with either design is the lack of indication of how numbering will be indicated. That, and I'm not sure how a wood post meets "breakaway" specs without being a vandalism risk.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I believe your math is wrong. 212 x 2000 equal 424,000 not 42,000
You are correct , I entered the wrong number after doing the math. I went back and edited the post. Thanks for catching it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks for your post, it caused me to learn about street sign costs!
I think you guys are having caviar dreams. Both signs cost too much, and the design will look out of place in a community of modest homes. After about 2 minutes research, it looks like the national average cost for street signs is between 200-400 dollars.
From Wikipedia for Seven Hills:
"The median income for a household in the city was $54,413, and the median income for a family was $62,520. Males had a median income of $44,500 versus $31,047 for females. The per capita income for the city was $25,014. About 2.0% of families and 2.6% of the population were below the poverty line, including 4.0% of those under age 18 and 2.2% of those age 65 or over."
While $84 a home for street signs seems like it's not much on its face, with a median household income in the city of $54k, $84 is a big bite. My town's family median is roughly twice that and we still have the good old metal cheapies. (Our city council wastes our money on much bigger line items like multi-million dollar carillons!)
In the end, it's your political butt on the line, so let the town and your conscience decide, not a bunch of BT'ers.
Edited 4/10/2008 11:52 am ET by WindowsGuy
.." (Our city council wastes our money on much bigger line items like multi-million dollar carillons!).oooh I remember that fiasco,that is, if it's the one by the Riverwalk.
.
.. . . . . . . .
You got it...
Group forms to build the dumb thing and raise the coin, city guarantees the financing, group doesn't raise enough money (surprise), city taxpayers are out millions on a boondoggle only a few wanted.
Now we've got a 160 ft. tall concrete eyesore - yeah!
Makes expensive signs look reasonable.
View Image
a monolith of arrogance it really was a nice small town back in the 70s, I used to walk along the river before it was fashionable, and then have a few beers at Washington Square or head over to Raymes on 53I don't miss anything about that county .......
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.. . . . . . . .
image building
Why not go whole hog like some UK towns.
Stayed in an old castle a few years back outside of Cheltenham, near Presby or such IIRC..
That town had no street signs or house numbers.
Each house had a routed nameplate on a post by the street, such as "grey gables", "old thatch" "Queen's domicile"
Lot of interesting architecture, every house different, some newer. Was walking around town and even the UPS driver stopped mme to see if I knew where 'grey gables" was - it want until then I noticed there were no street signs or numbers!
"The signs are in compliance with all applicable codes and requirements per the DOT"
Pete, I know the MUTCD rather well and I actually have it here in front of me.
Your street sign, doesn't appear to be in compliance with the MUTCD. And after a quick Google search, it appears that it isn't in compliance with the Ohio version of the MUTCD: http://www.dot.state.oh.us/traffic/Publication%20Manuals/omutcd/2003webom/Part02/file%2007_OMUTCD%20Part02_060503_withTOC_revised.pdf
Page 166
So your City Engineer may be taking some liberties with this choice of signage.
Either way, stick to the KISS principle. And don't overdue the signage. There is way too much visual clutter on the roads as it is. Sometimes it is hard to see the trees through the forest.
Impossible is an opinion.
sounds like yur selling a pet project for personal gain as in pork barrel....
still, either sign is a waste of money....
foam ya say... what's wrong with metal or MDO????
WTB that has some longjevity ... 'specially after the kid with the bat walks by the sign....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Pete-- i have to applaud your spirit1
ya know--- I am a huge advocate of urban life--and of course NE ohio----------- but I can't recall anybody EVER mentioning street signs as a positive or negativeso-----your street sign ideas--well i don't know what difference they are gonna makeBut-----in an urban enviornment--one thing I here EVERY year---is people raving about well thought out an beautifully designed city flower gardens------we have a few here--located in high traffic areas---and people actually look forward to what goes in them every year--and comment on how well they do each yearfor the kind of money you are proposing spending---- i would think you could get the same metal signs 99% of america uses-and that no one complains about-AND fund a nice city florascape program--which could provide actual seasonal jobs each yearBut- i think it's cool you are so into this--just the proposed signs aren't really my cup of tea
Best wishes,
stephen
Funny thing is.....I was just thinking about this topic the other day when I noticed YET ANOTHER new street sign pop up in my neighborhood.
Hey Pete......I say you REALLY spruce up the neighborhood. Your willing to spend money....buy everyone their own GPS system and you can forego the new signs while you pull down the old ones!
CRANK IT UP!
And the sign said "Long-haired freaky people need not apply"So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him whyHe said "You look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do"So I took off my hat, I said "Imagine that. Huh! Me workin' for you!"Whoa-oh-ohSign, sign, everywhere a signBlockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mindDo this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?And the sign said anybody caught trespassin' would be shot on sightSo I jumped on the fence and-a yelled at the house, "Hey! What gives youtheright?""To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in""If God was here he'd tell you to your face, Man, you're some kinda sinner"Sign, sign, everywhere a signBlockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mindDo this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?Now, hey you, mister, can't you read?You've got to have a shirt and tie to get a seatYou can't even watch, no you can't eatYou ain't supposed to be hereThe sign said you got to have a membership card to get insideUgh![Lead Guitar]And the sign said, "Everybody welcome. Come in, kneel down and pray"But when they passed around the plate at the end of it all, I didn't have apenny to paySo I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own little signI said, "Thank you, Lord, for thinkin' 'bout me. I'm alive and doin' fine."Wooo!Sign, sign, everywhere a signBlockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mindDo this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?Sign, sign, everywhere a signSignSign, sign
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
The design of these two signs was largely affected by the city engineer.
One was designed to be an affordable version and the other is the cadillac, if you will.
The affordable version is based upon much feedback from the upscale neighboring communities where similar signs are used.
The upscale vession is based upon the recommendations of a the sign company that desgined that particular sign.
Pricing is approximate as this will go out for public bid before we make a final decision.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
I think that MUTCD compliance has pretty much been legislated in every state, as a condition of FHWA fundign elegiblity.
Adoption of either of those will result in Money Magazine including in next year's Top Ten Future Jobs list: "Repair and maintenance of street signs in Seven Hills, Ohio".
Sounds to me like the Chamber of Commerce is behind this whole amusement park sign idea. If so, let them pay for the signs.
No doubt that both signs have some charm but they're also vulnerable. One kid with a sharp handsaw could do a Cool Hand Luke on one of those 4X4* posts in a big hurry. Even if you only lost one or two a year, it would become a big pain and you'd be laughed at as incompetent.
All in all, I'd would prefer that my tax dollars were spent on metal street signs with large enough print to be easily seen and read at a glance, day or night.
*edit: if I were out sign hunting, I'd prefer the 6X6 cedar post. ;-) BTW, any colleges with fraternities nearby?
Edited 4/10/2008 10:14 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
WOW. I see a little power has gone straight to your head, driving your hand directly into the tax payers pocketbooks.
Up front costs for those are ridiculous, and that doesn't even take maintenance into consideration.
Be part of the solution Pete....not part of the problem.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
This was part of my campaign promise... city image-building. It is something that a majority of our residents agree upon and want. We just need to hammer out the details.
btw
The commercial beautification project will be assessed to the businesses.
The light poles are the responsibilty of the power company... it is just that nobody has insisted yet that they fix them.
The large upscale developement I mentioned is a private project.
so anyhow
Let me put this idea of image building into another perspective.
I assume that most contributors here are intersted in finer homes, given the nature of this website.
Would you agree to skip using cedar siding on a home when T-111 would do? Maybe skip a brick exterior when vinyl siding is so much more affordable?
Why bother with a fine stone floor when vinyl stick-on tile are so much cheaper?
Skip the oak trim and spend that money elsewhere because extrded plastic trim is way more affordable.
Broom finish your driveway instead of hand trowling it?
The same goes for your city too. If you are investing in a finer community then you have to step above the basic economy grade image, no?
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Your points are valid except that you have to ask yourself if these signs will raise home values in your town. All the other choices you outline will improve home values because they directly affect the home itself.
Were my admittedly affluent town to propose implementing those signs I would raise a stink. Is your town really aware of and behind this?
Plant trees, flowers and repair streets and curbs. Those things have a much greater impact on how nice a town looks than street signs.
"This was part of my campaign promise... city image-building."Pete,
Don't be surprised if the image you project is not the image you hoped for.
Edited 4/10/2008 12:32 pm ET by oldfred
pete, upfront costs are to be considered, but long term costs determine value - the 'cheaper' alternative is not designed well or substantial enough to endure - a good blow will have pieces all over - not to mention the snow impact from the plows - it also appears to be at a level where graffitti artists or just outright vandals can easily reach - providing that big flat canvas might attract artists from a long distance away - the high dollar sign has at the top a blasted 'standard' appearing street sign that to my mind is attractive, out of reach, and effective - you want image? - sponsor a street flower contest - organize a stretch of highly visible street and edge the highway with appropriate flowers - Charlevoix MI lines 5 miles of highway with summer annual flowers to good effect - this spills over to residential streets also as a point of civic pride - there is no better image than residents taking pride in the appearance of their little piece of heaven - http://www.keepcharlevoixbeautiful.org/story.htmhttp://www.keepcharlevoixbeautiful.org/photos.htm"there's enough for everyone"
I would have to agree. I am trying to get two blocks of my neighborhood to plant cherries/crabs/etc on the parking strips. Neighborhoods that have true charm usually have accents that come with time: trees, landscaping, etc.
Pete, use that simple precast aluminum sign that was pictured, then go gung ho for Arbor Day. Get a landscape planner to lay out the proper trees in the proper places and start planting. When for sale signs go up on our streets with cherry blossoms, they go up in April for a reason!
If you plant the right trees en masse, everyone will know where "Dogwood Lane" or "Cherry Blossom Heights" is without putting in faux signs with faux charm. And, you can be the 'green guy' to boot. http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
I'd be red-hot if my community spent that kind of cash on street signs. Seems like an "OPM" kind of ethic.
BUT if, as you say, "It is something that a majority of our residents agree upon and want.", then the solution seems easy.....
Post a sign-up list and split the cost among those who sign the list. That way, only the money that's spent on this venture is from consenting citizens.
Also, there are lots of communities with pressing needs - dire public health, public safety, and/or public school needs - where a half-million dollars might have a much larger impact than producing prettier street signs. Whether or not your community would feel better about that use of money is a function of individual character, I suppose.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Pete....with all due respect....and no slight meant towards your hometown....based on the "pole" pic you offered in post 25 (?).....the neighborhood looks to be upper middle class at best.
I don't even see a curb in the photo.
Your analogy of high end finishes on homes falls short in that a) you are talking about private industry not publicly funded projects, and b) you wouldn't expect to be installing old growth pine floors in a trailer home.
My own hometown sounds similar to yours in many ways.....as I've heard you describe it over the years, as well as the pictures you offer. My end of town is a solid middle class blue collar bunch, whereas the other end is white collar NYC types.
Its very often that our town looks to spruce itself up...often trying to keep up with the Jones'. Neighboring towns that are completely white collar, both parents earning six figures at least.
In fact....many here are currently lobbying to raise a bill to install turf fields around town. Their number one argument? Our kids will be competing against other towns with such fields and will be at a disadvantage.
Meanwhile, our classrooms are overcrowded.....our bathrooms haven't been renovated since long before I attended 25 yrs. ago...etc., etc.
Big wood signs throughout town look good and improve image?
Sure.....but there have GOT to be more important things in need of attention.
Anyway...my two cents.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
"This was part of my campaign promise... city image-building. Build the image of a city that wisely uses it's tax dollars and returns the surplus and your property values will sky rocket. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I appreciate the desire to spruce up the neighborhood, but your money would be better spent hiring a professional environmental designer to develop a consistent, higher grade aesthetic.Put simply, both of those signs look terrible. They are entirely too large, obtrusive, and ugly, and do not fit at all with the aesthetic of the houses in the background.Good design is always a good investment. In today's world, with images and information available from all over the world near instantaneously, no one can claim to a lack of access to good design examples.
Very good suggestion, Get a streetscape master plan!! In Michigan must be in place to obtain and state/fed. grants. If master plan is in place then you to have a tool to use for future development.
Without a master plan your work will look like a patchwork quilt! Could start with the main commercial roads and then blend into the residentual.
A municpality should have a , land use masterplan, recreation master plan, streetscape, water & seewer masterplan, along with street master plan to start with.
Keep the master plans current and admend as needed,.
Fancy Signs do not a image make.How's this for a town image builder: Better Schools, open space legislation, ball fields so kids have something to do after school.This is a joke go ahead it's not my town but the image you are sending me with those signs is a pompous waste of tax payer's money.
It sounds like too much money, but I like how big the lettering is.
I'd opt for the more expensive ones in cast aluminum poles. Hey....it's free money aint it?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Being in the print business, I could print and route these signs for a fraction of what you quote, installation aside.
The signs can be printed direct to substrate to just about any material
you want.. exterior options would include either crezone ply, or, 6mm Sintra
If you give me the sizes and quantities, I can give you a quote
I've enclosed a pdf document that outlines the technology we employ here
r2
Pete,
I do prefer the $700 sign for two reasons.. bigger letters easier to read and second it just appears to be easier to maintain.
As for those neigh sayers.. Details make the neighborhood.. Things like that will spiff up ordinary and be a source of pride.. (granted small) people who want cheap also don't think long term... Those cheap metal signs on top of steel poles just place you as another bedroom community. Distinguish your community and it will attract those who want nicer..
Frenchy,
You've hit the nail on the head.
Image is important for the prosperity and vaue of a community. I've seen too many nice communities in the area incrementally devolve into low rent communites with so many residents trying to leave that houses become a dime a dozen, so to speak.
We are trying to avoid such a fate by taking some (hopefully) wise steps in the image building department.
We are a great and safe community and are taking steps to keep it that way.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Pete,
Image building is a Southern California phenomenon. Hollywood does it to everyone out here.
I'm currently living a few miles from the wealthiest communities in L.A.; Beverly Hills, Brentwood and Bel Air. Would you like me to take some photos of their street signs for you?
I promise to scour the neighborhoods, looking for anything out of the ordinary but I'll bet that I won't find any signs like what you're proposing.
I might find some embossed metal signs somewhere but that'll be a small gated community.
Even tinsel town has it's limits.
Edited 4/10/2008 11:41 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
It sounds like appropriate thought has gone into this. I would be concerned about the posts in any locations with no curb, mountable curb or design speeds higher than appropriate for barrier curb (I don't have my roadside design guide handy, but I'm thinking 35 mph), they may need to be on break away bases, or bored though, but I am sure your engineer is aware of that. Being on both sides of the Council I would talk on a one-on-one basis with some of the staff (Engineer, Engineering staff and PW) and find out what they really think as oposed to what they say at meetings (politics are everything).
I like the expensive signs more, but think they porbably are too expensive. If possible I would bid out both options though. We did a ~$150k sign project recently and were presently surprised with a lot of qualified bids that came in well below our budget.
Pete,
Your taking some hits from a lot of posters. I feel you are heading in the right direction. A lot of folks are taking the stance that the economy is down so spend nothing and vote no for every thing. If you have a pleasant, safe, and inviting community, sounds like it's your mission to keep it that way and improve on it.
The visual impact on visitors and residents says a lot about a community, is the community a well planned community for it's future or just struggling to hang on and meet payroll? Which one of these communities would you locate your business in??? Or your family??
How many of you drive up to meet an client in an old better of a truck with coffee cups falling out as you open the door. Rusty,dirty, faded lettering on the door, etc......
Or an newer truck clean and neat, nice fresh crisp lettering on truck, etc.....Which contractor do you think would make the best first impressions?
Same goes for our communities, "inviting" is a word my wife taught me. We have to make our communities "inviting" to the general public.
But with common sence, you don't need to sell the farm to do so. Just my $.02 worth.
I have spent 25 years on our city council, last 4 years as mayor, Pete, have fun! serving your community is very rewarding experience.
I appreciate your feedback, especially as someone that has worked on the side of city betterment from an elected position.
Good point too on the impression of the truck you show up in for estimates. Same reason that I drive a newer, clean and neatly lettered truck.
Impressions mean a lot.
We are an excellent community that is starting to look a bit shabby. We are definitely the place where families want to live. We are curently light on commercial residents (businesses) but have a huge development in the works that will change that.
Like I said, we are one of the safest in the area. Decent schools, small city in a large city area, great community interaction.
We can afford the sign program but I'd rather go with the less expensive sign and commit the additional monies to other beautification projects.
It strikes me that many here do not understand some of the intricacies of city care.
They would promote a shabby appearance at the savings of a few dollars and then later want the city to answer for falling property values and a city on the decline in quality of citizen, safety, services, etc.
Items like signs are an investment in the long term success and prosperity of the city.
For the record, I support the less expensive sign and think that it would have the desired image impact while not being unecessarily exhorbant in cost.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Edited 4/10/2008 1:48 pm ET by PeteDraganic
Those wooden signs are not long term anything.
If long term investment get Cast Iron signs.
Frenchy, you just said on here that you were cheap. It's not ok when it is somebody else's money either.
I would rather spend 38 dollars on the school system.
Doodabug,
Cheap doesn't mean stupid.. an investment in your community is smart. It tends to rise property values all out of proportion to the cost.
You need to understand how things work.. the city isn't part of the school district. The school district gets it's own money and it's wrong and I think illegal for the city to make a "donation" to the school district.
My City is so wealthy we have this years taxes in the bank next years spending saved and a reserve fund equal to another year. In a city of about 5000 we habve not one but two brand new major city sized fire stations. with brand new equipment.. We have our own near new $250,000 dollar vacumm for our sewers.. all the other cities in the metro areas share one!
We have our own city owned Golf course.
When I ran for Mayor I found out that we can't lower our cities income without hurting the school district. Plus we can't contribute any funds to the school district.
I'm in Grove City (southwest Columbus). We have nice street lighted street signs downtown and in main shopping district - hang on light poles and are lighted from inside. I've never seen others like them, but several people who have come to visit us were very impressed.
Everywhere else we have pretty much standard signs. When we moved here about a year and a half ago I saw a city worker going around with a bucket of black paint and brush. He painted all the posts and backs of the standard signs and posts black - stop signs, speed limit signs, etc. It was a minor thing I thought was a bit odd at first, but now I actually notice the steel posts and silver backs to stop signs when I drive elsewhere. Little thing that made a big difference.
The signs pictured had me looking for a shop or historical place. They looked more like place signs than street signs which didn't feel intuitive to me.
Just my thoughts.
Mmmmm, might be "McSigns" here....
I'm with JohnCujie, both are too much. It's going to be a lot of visual clutter to me.
I'd do something distinctive without having to hang placards that are going to be targets for vandalism and could blow away in the wind.
Good luck, Pete. No matter what you decide to do, you will be criticized. For what? Spending too much. Spending too little and not buying better signs. My brother-in-law could have done it cheaper and better. They clash with my motif. Why do they have to...
They elected you because of hope. Give it your best shot and don't let the inevitable detractors sour your fresh energy. Hopefully by the time you run for president/senate/judge the ba$tards won't have ground you down.
BTW, I like plain and simple. Keep the artistic stuff for the Olde Antique and Junque Shoppe. (But look at my neighborhood compared to yours!)
View Image
$ 410.00 each.
Aluminum powder coated pole.
http://www.websiteq.com/member/midatlantic/index.asp?action=page&type=products&name=12&cat=2&subcat=20
I really didn't like either of the choices. Not at all. They are way too big.
For what it's worth, our neighborhood had all of the street signs replaced with something simple, but nice. No one really noticed.
But when they replaced all of the light poles with decorative poles and lanterns, everybody took notice.
The lanterns are really very attractive. BUT -- they put 250 or 500 watt sodium vapor lamps in them which are downright blinding. There is one directly in front of my house which I would have plinked with my pellet gun until some drunk ran the pole over. Probably on purpose.
The moral of the story is, the lights are more important than the signs, just don't make them too bright.
carpenter in transition
tim---i like your choice.
stephen
best choice so far....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
nice signs and post - and good point on the lights - glare is nothing but light pollution and an endangering distraction - well designed lighting is a great asset to a house/community - resources here: http://www.darksky.org/mc/page.do"there's enough for everyone"
I'd much prefer that signpost and arrangement than either of Petes original ideas. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
$410 each... plus installation... which consists of a the labor and equipment to dig a hole for a footer and then add concrete and bolts for mounting.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
pete,
definitely the labor cost to install this aluminum pole will be more because it requires a footing and bolts.
i think this would be more than offset by the ease of replacing a pole when hit by a car compared to a 4x4 set in concrete. i'm assuming that will be how it's done.
and even more offset by the maintenance of wood signs.
i think the idea to improve the look of the neighborhood with signs and lights is really a good one.
carpenter in transition
Couldn't you just slide a new pole over the old poles? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
i was thinking that an aluminum pole would snap off from the base.
unbolt base, bolt on new pole base.
rather than dig new hole for new wood pole.
carpenter in transition
The aluminum poles are apparently set in the ground, the base then slips over them. You'd have to dig them out to replace them too.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
tim,
almost directly opposite my driveway is a light pole that looks quite similar to the one you posted.
it's fiberglass----and it's been replaced at least 4 times in less than 3 years.no one in my household has hit it---but a visitor to my house has, a couple visitors to the neighbors house--and a city plow has also knocked it over.I takes less than 2 hours to replace----and that includes running wiring up inside the pole to the light--and also includes a lot of sitting in utility trucks drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes.After the original installation------I imagine a sign pole-without wiring---could be swapped out in 20-30 minutes.
stephen
definitely the labor cost to install this aluminum pole will be more because it requires a footing and bolts.
I'm assuming the existing street signs are already installed this way. Some modifications, perhaps.....but they all wouldn't require new installations.
I wonder if Pete is considering the costs of removing the old metal signs and footing to make room for the installation of the new wood signage.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
Tim's got my winner!
Great sign much better and traditional and they will actually last to be a long term investment not a long term liability to maintain.
Maybe Pete can tell us what problem this expenditure of taxpayers' money is intended to solve...
Pete, whose idea is it to re-sign your town?
Also, please show us pics of the signs that are currently in use, so we can do a proper comparison.
well, look closer, Pete did put an exampe up in very early post.
PS edit: look far left fgor the street sign ----- btw, was this a pic Pete took after his democrat 'friend' hit the light post driving his 'girlfriend' home <G>
Edited 4/11/2008 10:57 pm ET by junkhound
Thanks for pointing the old sign out to me.
It looks like the hundreds of thousands of other street signs that get people, cabbies, contractors and delivery people to where they're going all over North America. Those signs are very easy to read in the dark or the rain as they are reflective.
I wonder then what the problem is that requires spending taxpayer's money?
Both are too much for what little time they will remain intact. I can see carloads of kids, leaning out of both sides of the car, each with a baseball bat. The day after Halloween will require loads of OT for your highway dept.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I'm not found of either.
I think they both look "nice" but they're both maintenance issues from hell. And costly. I'm sure there is a less costly attractive alternative. Plus if I found out our city spend 400k+ on signs I'd want to know why they couldn't make other, more lasting & beneficial, improvements.
If certain neighborhoods want to have "rich" looking signs, make the citizens of that neighborhood pay for them and their future maintenance with a special assessment.
My 2 cents anyway
From a very conservative/ libertarian person - I am just glad that you didn't make it to the Governors race.
This is just wrong.
Check your charter, and the Constitution, and try to make a governmental arguement for this action.
JHOLE shaking his head.
Where does it say that pretty signs, paid for by tax dollars, are mandated to be paid for by the constituents, just because you ran on the platform of gifting some peoples money to other people?
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Conservatism is very important except for your friends. They get a pass. Damn do gooders anyway. The swoon of "doing something" when office is attained immediately kicks in. But......
I hope that such a post brings up some valid points. One is aesthetics. I am a modernist and loathe cutesy faux Arts and Crafts stuff. But, better that than no design at all. It has been noted that the French argue to the point of murder over public design but never argue the cost. They choose to live in better looking cities.
So what are you going to do out there Pete?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
"The swoon of "doing something" when office is attained immediately kicks in. But......"Nicely stated...I wonder though, if Pete ran on a campaign to improve the image of the city and nothing else? For some reason, I'm willing to bet that he also had a few campaign promises that said something about being conservative, cutting spending and being fiscally responsible. Now, the urge to spend seems to have trumped everything. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hey, great lesson in government doing something rather than nothing eh?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Jim,
Do you really believe that?
Have you ever known a noice town that has deeriorated over the years becoming an undesirable place to live? Do you recall how that came to be? the town aged and was not kept up well I suspect would be the answer.
Who do you blame?
Liberatarianism?
Read through my previous post to Etherhuffer.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Conservatism is very important except for your friends.
I am not sure what your point is but this is a matter that is supported by the majority of the residents here in Seven Hills.
This project would be bid publicly and competetively.
I personally designed and proposed the cheaper sign and the City engineer, working with a sign company, had proposed the more expensive sign.
The less expensive sign is consistent in design with many of the area's nicer suburbs.
We are not an impoverished community. We have many nice parks and features. We are very community oriented and have a good number of events throughout the year sponsored by the city.
We have many programs to assist the elderly and help residents that do need it.
We are one of the safest communities in the region.
This sign program is an investement in the city image. To neglect the image of the city is irresponsible.
There is a local internet forum on which I posted info on both signs so that residents can review them and give feedback. All residents there like the idea... and are excited about it... the biggest disagreemtn is what signs to go woth. Some residents prefer the more expensive signs but most prefer the less expensive version.
It is a shame that this thread has become an ooportunity to turn this into a political matter by people that have no idea of the situation here in Seven Hills.
Even worse are those that want to use this thread as an opportunity to take potshots at me instead of offer something constructive.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
"It is a shame that this thread has become an ooportunity to turn this into a political matter by people that have no idea of the situation here in Seven Hills.Even worse are those that want to use this thread as an opportunity to take potshots at me instead of offer something constructive."Oh, oh....the wine is out....is the cheese following soon? What did you expect when you solicited opinions? All glowing praise? I'd like to find out what the constituents thought about Tim's third choice at $410? Put that up against the other two and I'm willing to bet that the majority would pick that one. When you speak of the internet forum and "...all of the residents..." are we talking substantial numbers....or three or four people? My experience with local forums led me to believe that very few people participated in them. I'd be surpised if there were even twenty people in any city forum I looked into and we had a much bigger populance than you are talking about. I was curious about what you expected to get from posting this type of question in here. In the words of Dr Phil...."what was your payoff?" Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
What I expected were opinions on which sign design was more appealing and perhaps fedback on whether the more expensive sign was really worth the extra cost.
What would my residents think of the $410 sign? I guess if you want to come here and install them for free, and pay for the installation materials and equipment... they might be fine with it.
Considering all the other needs for those $410 signs, they'd be a lot more than $410 each. Although that may repay itself in longevity. Hadn't proposed such a sign and can't really tell you what the residents would think.
So far the feedback for the signs we have proposed has been good.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Well, there you have it.
You're too invested in the less expensive, expensive sign--you "personally" designed it.
I don't like either sign. Too affected. I like a street sign to look like a street sign--and timkleins pic shows one classy and very cost-effective version.
I think you've already made a decision that your sign is the way to boost the image/beautify your town. Ever think of asking the citizens for their prioities for beautification? Not just, "Do you want this sign or that sign?"
I was an officer on a homeowners association board for 10 years, and I know that you can't make everyone happy, and that you have to weigh others opinions and then go with your gut. All I can say is, you ought to give serious consideration to all the comments in this thread. I get the sense that you haven't.
Try to suspend your opinion that unique, expensive street signs are the best/only way to upgrade your community's image.
Cliff
I would recommend also putting the sign timkline posted on your local website for the residents to chose from.
View Image
My personal thought is that it is a much better looking sign, and would have a lower maintainece cost. I know I would choose it over the other two - regardless of initial cost.
Pete,
The metal post sign in the photo in shoeman's post, orig posted by timkline? Is a far better setup for municipal uses IMHO, and could outlast wood post models by a century if cared for.
The two wooden signs in the OP are nice, but I see problems with: durability, sight, vandals whackin' the hanging portion... etc.
Best regards,
Pat"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing..."
"...the French argue to the point of murder over public design but never argue the cost. They choose to live in better looking cities."Evidently you've never seen the Pompidou Center or that IM Pei pyramid in the Louvre courtyard.
BruceT
I have been to both and they actually work quite well. The pyramid ties together themes in the area, notably, "Cleopatra's Needle" at the other end of the Tuilleries. When you are inside, the Pyramid is a huge skylight that makes the lower level very open and light. Note that most Parisian subway stations are very large and open and airy. And of course the theme of Napolean in Egypt, etc.
As for Pompidou, its pretty cool. But you have to like modern design to start with. A structure more deserving of criticism is their new Opera House.
I am glad Pete's post generated so much interest. People do need to think about public spaces. And costs. And the fact that not all folks are traditionalists in their taste, although the majority are. The fact that Pete let us hit him with slings and arrows shows a pretty good intent on his part. Bon jour!http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Appreciation of art and design is indeed subjective. Bon jour yourself.BruceT
What do you think of the new Hearst building in NYC?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
I find the diamond faceted exterior quite graceful and vastly more interesting than the slab-sided high rises of the past 30 years. I like it more from a distance than from nearby where the juxtaposition of modern glass and steel with 1920's sandstone is somewhat jarring.I think the green building elements are great too. I have always thought that recycling and conserving resources is the right thing to do even when it costs more. I wonder how they control algae growth in the waterfall without making the lobby smell of chlorine?BruceT
Hi intensity radiation? :-)http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Slightly salty water and an electrolysis unit.
It's a great system in home swimming pools.
Hair doesn't get bleeched out, nor clothes, no chlorine smell, eyes don't get all buzzed looking. Can barely taste the salt. Quite effective. Makes the pool boy's job easier.
Do have to make sure the heater is properly bonded to reduce corrosion.
Edited 4/13/2008 10:50 am ET by peteshlagor
"Hair doesn't get bleeched out, nor clothes, no chlorine smell, eyes don't get all buzzed looking"
Ozone pools were a big improvement, but this sound much better. Hope they bring out a version for hot tubs.
Here's a story about them:
http://phoenix.about.com/cs/wet/a/saltpool01.htm
Pete;I haven't chimed in on this since the range of suggestions has gone beyond whatever I could contribute (personally, I favor the understated where possible, but that's just me).But the discussion has made me attentive to street and road signs in my locale and I do have one question: Where do the traffic signs come into play here? Like Stop signs, yield signs, Dead End Street signs, that kind of thing.I've found that, even in some upscale neighborhoods, it's not uncommon for a street sign post to also sport one of the red or yellow types....?And, will you be required to leave room to add Spanish at some future date? (Just joking here, but serious about the above).
You're going to get the power company to replace all their lamp posts with something better looking?
If they all look like the one you posted - designwise - and are as close to the corner (not talking about the ones in the middle of the block) think about using them to hang nice street signs on.
If the light posts are not close enough to the corner to suit the rules, then get them moved closer. Contribute some of the bucks saved by changing the original sign parameters.
Decorative street lamps can also be the power source for lighting the little signs at night. In my neck of the woods we have to flash on the high-beams to read the traditional signs at night while where I used to live the signs are internally lighted.
You may know your way around your neighborhood but I'll bet almost everyone would appreciate the visibility of a lighted sign, especially emergency services, or me, when I come to visit.
The light posts will just be repaired. And there are not nearly enough to be of use for signs.
All signange will be highly reflective per DOT rules.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
View ImageHow about this for light pole improvement?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
I am lobbying the balance of council to instead consider the idea of bringing in a sign consultant.
I am also pushing for the aluminum signs that were suggested here. They seem more prudent when considering the long-term maintenance concerns.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Thanks for the update Pete. I liked the aluminum ones best, just never got around to voting--
Oh yeah... the stop signs and such.
The stop signs are to be included on the street sign posts. Other signs we'll have to work out later.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
It is my opinion and the opinion of many others here that enhancing the citiy's image acts to protect the value of property and the integrity of the city.
Would a be a good representative of the people if I operated from such a miserly position that the city looking shabby led to our becoming just another hasbeen suburb?
Why exactly are you opposed to the beautification of a city?
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
It honorable that you and others want to enhance the city's image. Its the method that is questionable....not the goal. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
And what method is questionable?
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
"To neglect the image of the city is irresponsible."
Pete, I am not really attacking you so much as poking fun! I am just noting that in a poor community, spending money is liberal. In a well to do commnunity, its "the image of the city." Could you explain the difference?
I actually find what you are trying to do very good. I just hope you would apply it across all neighborhoods. Let me explain.
Here in Seattle, Mayor Rice(a decade ago now) wanted 'Urban Villages', which translated into little more than planned density. Increase density along transportation corridors for a more efficient city. I loathe the name, but applaud the idea. It works.
Funny thing though(shout out to plumbill). Magnolia and Mt. Baker, where the rich folks live, seem sort of exempt from this sort of planning. Goodness!
So, are you proposing nice road signs for all of your district? If so, great, if not, why?http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Yes, the signage would be for the entire City of Seven Hills.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Well, I still say drop the signage and go for trees, landscaping, etc. I think you are being penny wise pound foolish on this. I don't think you can graft character on a neighborhood with street signs. I think basic, good quality, off the shelf street signs is enough. Put the rest into grand old trees. That is a sincere suggestion, not a chat board jibe. If you are community active, my hat is off to you. Only our methods differ.
Here is my .02 cents. Go do some doorbelling. Ask people if they would prefer a tree/landscape program sponsored by tax bucks or street signs. I will bet they want the trees. Here is an honest bet: I will send you a $100 buck check in the mail if folks prefer street signs over trees. All of the Tavern can hold me to this. I am as good as my word and don't welch on bets. If you lose, you plant one tree for me. Deal or no Deal! http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
We already have a tree program in the works.
Some of that funding comes directly from the mayor who charges $50 to provide wedding services and the contributes that money into a special beautification fund. He has accumulated over $5000 just from those weddings.
We are currently confering with an arborist that is suggesting various trees that would do well throughout our city in different applications.
I could be a bum and take your $100 but I won't. The city is not a typical stripped down treeless suburb. We are rather well furnished with trees and parks and other manners of flora and fauna. We are only a couple miles from a National Park that encompasses over 30,000 acres.
We do have a few subdivisions that are weak on trees but in the overall scheme, we are pretty well treed. The tree program mentioned above will adress those tree poor areas.
People are really most upset that the city has been let go over the years and they would like to see visual improvements... they wish to see their property values protected.
A bit of insight for you. We have a young, vibrant and energetic Mayor. He has literally thought of hundreds of ideas to better the city and has in one way or another implemented most of them. he is a very active idea man and a very bright guy too.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Missed this post. Glad your mayor is out front.
I really think the street sign idea is not where you want to go. Regardless of whether they look better or not, I still think this money not well spent. I also think it could be politically not wise. It could look extravagant to many.
I really don't like to poop on other's ideas, so let me approach this obliquely.
If I were in your shoes, I would look at what, over the long haul, adds to property value. Or detracts.
What adds: Curbs, sidewalks, less overhead wires, less boats under blue tarps, etc. Old school stuff. Sidewalks make a huge difference. Cars in yards are horrible.
It takes a very persuasive person to promote sidewalks, curbs, etc. These are higher dollar, longer term goals.
I would also consider street sign alternatives. Note that there are many new LED technologies for lighting street signs at low cost and less ongoing energy costs. The elderly benefit greatly from this. Same with LED street lane markers.
A meld of safety ideas, green ideas, etc that benefit all would do you much better than a fancy sign. Think more outside the box on this. The possibilities are endless. http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
An elderly resident called me a few weeks ago when we had the heavy snows. He lives on a cul de sac and the plows pushed so much snow in front of his mailbox that the post office would not deliver to it. he was too old to clear it away himself.
I called the service department on his behalf and was informed that our crews were swamped with other pressing matters so I threw a shovel in the truck and went over and fixed the problem.
Not trying to pat myself on the back and I am quite frankly hesitant to even post this but I do want to let you know this one example of how I am about service to my community.
I think this sign program is a truly positive program.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Good on ya Pete. I grew up in Spokane and we had the same issues.
But... Sincere, honest, advice:Ask folks if its worth it, and give an alternative. Building a sense of neighborhood, community pride or whatever you want to call it is a great thing to do. But if you give alternatives, folks will choose. If you give only one choice, the answer can be "no". Choice get folks involved. Prices get folks upset. Ask people how they want their money spent and they will follow you forever. Tell them and they will chase you out of town! Again, a very sincere suggestion. EHhttp://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
Both of the original two choices are hideous, even if they're free.
k
What would you prefer?
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
kfc: "both of the first two choices are hideous, even if they're free."
PeteDraganic: "What would you prefer?"
Well, the one posted by timkline isn't too gaudy. IMO a little gauche, but tastes differ, I suppose. If residents are demanding some ostentatiousness, then that one.
I actually like the style (new, not rusted, etc. etc.) in your photo of original conditions best. Simple, functional, and classic in a way. It won't scream "Desparate attempt to overcome 2008 housing price collapse" in six years like the rest.
I'm impressed by your openness to criticism and responsiveness, BTW.
k
I'm impressed by your openness to criticism and responsiveness, BTW.
I'm used to it....LOL
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
I just stumbled on this thread and quickly scanned the replies. Very strange - only a few people mentioned emergency services in any of this discussion. Their ability to discern the correct street all hours of the day and night in all kinds of weather should be the highest priority. Any sign proposal should be reviewed begining with emergency services, then on to other folks including politicians (and the starting point should be signs that meet the Uniform Code..).
And you would be amazed at the number of gated communities that "guarantee access" yet you'll find a piece of apparatus out there with a saw opening up the gate so a medic unit can get in - particularly in ice and snow.
Give that man a cigar! Great reply.
kfc: I'm impressed by your openness to criticism and responsiveness, btw
PD: I'm used to it. LOL
kfc: Me too. I do love my wife though.
k
http://www.solarmarkers.com/ Pete, consider this alternative. Not cute but very functional. Could add great value to any place.http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
I think this sign program is a truly positive program.
Maybe it is. And maybe the community IS solidly behind the idea - I dunno, I don't live there.
But...dude. Seriously. Neither of those signs looks like they'll stand up for long in Ohio weather, nor are they aesthetically pleasing IMO. Too clunky. I liked the $410 example posted much better.
I appreciate the desire to add character to the city, but those signs aren't going to do it. If you want to change signage, why not go for a traditional look instead of trying to get all creative-like? See below for inspiration.
I also think that tough enforcement of building codes, cleaning up yards fulla junk and run-down houses, weed control ordinances, investment in things like trashcans everywhere reasonably possible, burying as many overhead lines as possible, etc. will do more to address quality-of-life.
The development of an architectural standard for commercial development goes a long way. Strong ordinances on advertising signage are good.
Planters in the medians are nice. Des Moines (my original hometown) undertook a cool project like that a few years back along one of the city's major thoroughfares. A photo is at http://www.douglashoerr.com/streetscape-design/fleur-drive-streetscape.php
Make sure the roads are maintained well, and repaired or repaved. Same for the sidewalks. Make sure the parks have updated playground equipment, nice shelters and good benches and chairs.
That's all I got for now. My brain is oatmeal.
I also think that tough enforcement of building codes, cleaning up yards fulla junk and run-down houses, weed control ordinances, investment in things like trashcans everywhere reasonably possible, burying as many overhead lines as possible, etc. will do more to address quality-of-life.
Problems like those are very few in Seven Hills.
The city just spent nearly $200,000 on recycle bins for every household. These are the type that the garbage truck can pick up with a lift. We save money by having that tonage counted at half-rate and are doing a good thing for the environment.
We are saving about 10K per month in garbage collection fees. The city uses a private contractor for garbage collection and disposal.
I am solidly considering the $410 sign idea. It would actually cost the same as the cheaper wooden sign initially... maybe a tad more... but over the long term would potentially save the city in maintenance costs. I will try to assemble some info and present it at the next council meeting. The mayor is really chomping at the bit to get this out to bid and he favors the pricy sign but I hate to rush things. I will see how well I can pull him back.
As for the signs standing up in our weather, the neighboring city of Independence has been using a sign virtually identical to the one I designed. I actually consulted heavily with them and had the opportunity to learn from their trials and errors over the past 30 or more years with wooden signs. That's why this design is comprised of the materials it is... they are the same as Independence has been using for years. The sign panels are even made by the same guy who they swear by.
The only reason I am for my design is because I know it is based on solid advice from others that are using it... and it is also substantially more affordable. Believe me, it has nothing to do with ego.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
That you personally designed the one sign, is a fact that can not help but color your defense of this project. No matter how much you say your ego is not involved, you know that's just impossible. Were I in your shoes, I would not have had a hand in the design to avoid such recriminations and maintain my objectivity.
For the sake of your town, it is good that you are willing to consider other alternatives like the $410 metal version proposed here. It sounds like your heart is in the right place on this issue. Spending the money on the recycle bins was a fantastic use of public funds and sends the message that the community cares about its future.
I have always believed that towns are a very direct reflection of their residents. If a town is shabby, it is rarely because of a city government, but more likely because the people have stopped caring enough to keep up their properties, pick up stray garbage, etc. I have been to many economically depressed rural areas which still looked pleasant and pristine because the residents had the "pride of place" to keep them looking that way regardless of the fact that they were on hard times.
The best a city government can hope for is to maintain the infrastructure and sponsor programs to incent the community to better itself and its image. If these signs are the best way to do that for your town, then go for it.
Now that he has designed it, he will have to step away from the decision making process. Also, it would be reasonable to know how deep the iron is in the fire on this issue. Did Pete get paid to design it? Will Pete be involved in the supply or manufacturing of his sign? Will Pete take in any money for any reason regarding these signs? Even if the answer to those questions is no, I would think Pete would have to recuse himself in all council debate on this topic now.Or, maybe I'm being unreasonable. Anyone agree or disagree? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Given that I live in a town with a councilman suing the city government he serves, I tend to have a biased view. These types of things can get ugly fast, so I would advise Pete to tread lightly.
In our case, a councilman frequently disagreed with the mayor and council - good.
He then ran for state government - okay.
He was then suspiciously charged with misdemeanor battery for touching a cop's back (two weeks after the incident) while discussing cars being moved prior to a parade - very politically motivated, very bad.
He lost the primary race for state government (naturally), and was acquitted on the charge later (naturally) - bad/good.
Now he's suing the city because his civil rights were violated and his reputation was damaged leading to him losing the race. He's also threatened suits against various other government officials for defamation, etc. - very bad.
The council vote to censure the guy - nonsense.
Now the city refuses to settle the lawsuit (which likely could be done by just apologizing) and is racking up giant legal bills. Some council folks are even making noise that taxes will have to go up to pay the legal bills - oh please. Egos on parade.
Nice eh? All this in a community consistently making it on the top places to live in America list.
I know what you mean.We used to watch the Sterling Heights council meetings for the comedy. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Now you are thinking too hard. It is not like I designed this thing solely. It is a copycat, essentially, of our neighboring community's signs. The only difference being the colors and size/shape of the placard.
I cut and built the post and the sign company made the actual signs. I did this to save the city money. There is nothing so intrinsically unique about my version that I am somehow emotionally attached to it. My support for it lies mainly in the fact of its affordability and that it is based on other working designs already tested.
The other version is costing the city full-tilt for the prototype.
I am not being paid for my contribution nor will I be bidding on building the signs. It ill go to the lowest and best public bidder for whatever sign we choose.
With "my" version, our city service department can manage to repair it quite easily. There is nothing too complex about it.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Pete-
Too large and gaudy. Be a pace setter and use that same style as the neighboring community but shrink it down using some different decorum that will be unique to the area and a style attributed solely to your community.
And save the city legal fees later on when someone gets in an accident and tries blaming the signs for congestion and blocking their view.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
"I am not being paid for my contribution nor will I be bidding on building the signs. It ill go to the lowest and best public bidder for whatever sign we choose."I suspected that would be your answer, but it's a reasonable question."It is a copycat, essentially, of our neighboring community's signs."Now for sure I see a better opportunity in using Petes suggestion. If this were my community, I'd place a high value on being unique and I would steer clear of copycatting the neighbors if possible.Being the innovator that I am, I would look very hard for a solution that utilized the existing poles and foundations if that was at all possible...and...I'd look for larger print versions of Petes suggestion. Anyways, don't take any of this personal. You know your community best and my hats are off to you for getting involved. I'm supportive of nice looking signs and I don't believe that everyone in your city has to be the lowest budget. I do think that every idea needs to be floated and you are lucky to have a young mayor that is proactive. I left a stodgy old town in Northern Michigan whos town leaders were so frugal that they were a big part of why the area was suffering financially even though they were positioned to be the leading town on the eastern shore. Leadership in government takes vision and effort but it also takes restraint. Carry on. Collectively, you have gotten a lot of opinions and I'm sure your fellow council members will also get a fair share of advice. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Why exactly are you opposed to the beautification of a city?"
Slippery slopes.
When this stuff starts happening, I refer to charters e.g. to actually see the role of my governmental bodies.
I actually disagree that these beautification projects do anythong to help buffer property values. I have seen too many other cities, spend wayyyy more than you are even contimplating - just to watch them turn downhill anyways.
When looking at a property, the last thing i take into consideration is it's street signs.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Pete I vote for neither. I do not have time to read other replies so I maybe repeating ideas feelings mentioned already.
The 700 looks like it would rot out, and if I voted for you I would be pretty upset to be replacing them all in 8 years.
The 2000 looks nice but imagine the look on my face when I get a $2000.00 plus bill because I was trying to stop at a stop sign in my car in january slid on ice and hit the thing and destroyed it. Call to city clerk "But it was only a street sign, power pole maybe 2k, but it was just a street sign the damage to my car is only 500".
Did you look into this company I get their catalog and know there signs do not cost 2000 per fully out fitted they meet fed reg's. http://www.brandonindustries.com/download.asp
One other point, might be why our taxes are so low, roads in our state are county except state and federal highways. The county maintains the local street and signage, they have their own sign shop print all street signs, they get mounted on a 2" diameter fence pole with dome cap on top real simple probably 300 tops to produce and install each. Goes in where ever you live, in the trailer park neighborhood or a 7 million dollar house in the foothills, people just don't seem to care. If your subdivision wants something else they pay for it, the county provides the signs. Is there another town next to you also in need to get the cost down?
Wallyo
Edited 4/11/2008 11:18 am ET by wallyo
Edited 4/11/2008 11:22 am ET by wallyo
i just got off the phone with a sales rep from the sign company you linked to.
Nice looking stuff.
Those are poles that are set into a footer with a slip-over base.
choice of 3 or 4 inch poles, various cast bases and sign configurations. all around the 700 +/- range, material only.
I am awaiting an email version of their catalog and pricing and will submit that to my fellow council members.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Not trying to be too artsy fartsy about this, but think of sign as 'background' and 'function'. The sign should be functional and unobtrusive. For "foreground", I think of those entryway landscape designs on major entrances to towns, developments, etc. Perhaps delineating your town with "entryway" work would be better spent bucks. See the City of Shoreline, WA for ideas. They have done a great job of this. http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
I'll just chime in one more time.
The original signs seem too much like a realty sign or a commercial sign. I believe street signs should blend in, but be visible when you need them and located properly. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Pete, I wonder if your town could solicit and use locals who might sponsor the signs and plantings around each sign. Theoretically, you could create competition amongst subdivisions to have the nicest signs while getting corporate sponsors to help defray the costs. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Outside of the cost of the signs, I don't think he signs match the neighborhood.
Something like that I would expect to see in some McMansion development with the faux brick wall street entry and the gold leaf lettering announcing the name of the serfdom you are about to enter. (description plagiarized from McMansion thread a few weeks ago)
Instead of trying to catch up with surrounding communities, why not match up the sign designs to your community. By the time you get all of them installed, the neighboring communities may upgrade and leave you looking out of date again. As an example, our nearby town (we live outside town limits) has simple 4x4 posts with the street names engraved on the verticals of the post. It matches the waterfront nature of the town. Other towns in the area went with different looks, but nobody ever talks about how our signs compare against anyone else's. Street lights are a different matter they do get talked about, but since the power company is paying for yours you may not get a choice.
Also, did anyone ask how the faces of those signs hold up to the pounding of a snow plow throwing snow against them?
They both look dopey. They will look dopier still when they are covered with bubblegum and dings from kids jumping up and abusing them. I'd also wonder about visibility with those.
Yours is not the first comment about kids abusing these signs in some fashion or another... where do you people live?
Vandalism and the sort aren't really a problem here. Heck, we have virtually zero crime period.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
"Vandalism and the sort aren't really a problem here. "Maybe because you haven't installed any targets yet. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I live in a place where no large sign goes unpunished :)
I gave you the short answer, but the long answer is this: Those look like McMansion signs to me: Large, pretentious, and actually serving the purpose worse than the simpler model. The upscale neighborhoods I have been in have either very discreet signage (not good for emergency services) or normal signs on fancy poles with fairly large lettering. Not monstrous behemoths like those. When I am driving, I like a sign up high so I can see it over other vehicles. Your signs are both harder to read than a normal sign due to color and appear to hang so low that a pickup could block it.
If it were anyplace I was living I'd rather see the street signs be normal, modern, large lettered signs on a nice metal pole (not plain aluminum) with a dark background (navy blue is nice, as is green) and white lettering. Then, if you must cute-ify it, then you could hange placards from under with whatever little moto or graphic you like. That also leaves you the option to have changing themes. You could have lovely generic placards now, and then in a couple of years you could have new ones made for Spring Flowers, Autumn Harvest, Christmas, Qwaanza, or whatever. Probably what I like would cost the same as your sign, it would just be more pleasing to my eye.
What ever you decide, do it because it will make your community a better place, not because it will maintain property values. The economic factors that affect real estate are so far removed from street signs it is hard to image any link.
Anyway, making decisions about how we live together and how our communities will look based on maintaining property values, is by any standard a poor form of democracy.
Edited 4/12/2008 12:56 am ET by fingersandtoes
Another couple thoughts, if you don't have enough already ;-) :
I like the idea of plantings under the signs--our city got a big grant from the state and they did all sorts of stuff downtown. One of the nicest though were big bowl-shaped planters they fill with flowers. Another was hanging baskets of flowers and plants on light poles--the poles look like they are wrought iron, but I think they are powder-coated aluminum.
The things that didn't work out well was the repaving intersections and sidewalks with brick-looking pavers. The contractor screwed up and they've already had to fix problems by cutting and installing expansion strips (after one year), but the pavers are also chipping and spalling. I am pretty sure they are dyed concrete and not brick. It looked nice enough when everything was new, but are aging rapidly. That would be my concern with woooden signs.
Pete, I don't live in a small city or even a subdivision, but my taxes go to the town regardless. and they have a real good knack for building some really goofy things in the name of civic pride
so I think you should spend as much as possible and even buy a few dozen spares for some of the most expensive street signs I have ever seen !
heck you may even need to buy a truck and some equipment to maintain the things
this way you'll either keep your job or lose it in spectacular fashion in the next election
but since most of us are cynical about government and spending, I think you will have the job for a long time or at least as long as the tax base can afford these wonderful plans
for my example I would point to the ubiquitous brick planters that LaPorte built around the business district intersections to make that area more attractive while you drive around in circles looking for a parking place so you can shop at those businesses that are closing their doors and folding up their tents after 50 or so years because there is not enough parking,
or spend a few million on the court house renovation only to end up paying more to the low bidder for extras in excess of amount of the high bidder
the bottom line is that ..nobody cares..... I know that I don't.....so start writing those checks and setting those signs.
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Edited 4/12/2008 7:01 pm by maddog3
C'mon It's only money.
yeah, That's what I was trying to tell Pete, whatever he decides is OK, some folks will think he's cheap while others will think he just likes burning money. it just doesn't matter ! A few weeks ago I was told here that pork barrel spending is OK,.
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On the 10 point pretentiousness scale (which is a logarithmic scale, I believe) the 2K one is a 9 and the cheaper one only an 8.
You'll need multi-media if you want a 10.
What is the cost per year of life expectancy? Will one be more expensive to maintain? How are they attached? Seems like the second would be more likely to disappear into college kids dorm rooms
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Pete, one thing to consider is that the signs should be pretty basic and look like street signs. Part of the purpose for the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices, (MUTCD), is to encourage consistency in signing, and traffic control devices through out the nation.
This is so that drivers know what to expect, and look for. This consistency goes a long way in making the town visitor, and new resident friendly. Houses that are hard to find are hard to sell. If they are hard to sell, they sell for less, driving down property values.
I think that there may by statutory limits on what the City can do. I found the following in the Ohio Statutes:
4511.11 Local conformity to manual and specifications for uniform system of traffic control devices.
(A) Local authorities in their respective jurisdictions shall place and maintain traffic control devices in accordance with the department of transportation manual and specifications for a uniform system of traffic control devices, adopted under section 4511.09 of the Revised Code, upon highways under their jurisdiction as are necessary to indicate and to carry out sections 4511.01 to 4511.76 and 4511.99 of the Revised Code, local traffic ordinances, or to regulate, warn, or guide traffic.
(B) The director of transportation may require to be removed any traffic control device that does not conform to the manual and specifications for a uniform system of traffic control devices on the extensions of the state highway system within municipal corporations.
(C) No village shall place or maintain any traffic control signal upon an extension of the state highway system within the village without first obtaining the permission of the director. The director may revoke the permission and may require to be removed any traffic control signal that has been erected without the director’s permission on an extension of a state highway within a village, or that, if erected under a permit granted by the director, does not conform to the state manual and specifications, or that is not operated in accordance with the terms of the permit.
(D) All traffic control devices erected on a public road, street, or alley, shall conform to the state manual and specifications.
(E) No person, firm, or corporation shall sell or offer for sale to local authorities any traffic control device that does not conform to the state manual and specifications, except by permission of the director.
(F) No local authority shall purchase or manufacture any traffic control device that does not conform to the state manual and specifications, except by permission of the director.
(G) Whoever violates division (E) of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor of the third degree.
Effective Date: 01-01-2004
It seems that not only could the City be forced to remove the noncompliant signs, but the contractor could in fact be charged with a misdemeanor for providing and installing them.
I don't like the idea of either for quite a few reasons:
Don't get me wrong they look nice but neither are reflective for night time driving
you live in Ohio where they get snow and ice .....that means snow plow and slippery driving conditions where they will eventually get taken out by the snow plow or out of control vehicle and at 700-2000 a pop it gets pricey to replace.
theft factor......kids will be kids or even adults for that matter.
Signs are meant to be at a specific height, size and various other specifications that i will not bore you with.
Stick to the basics, is my recomendation.
They do look nice.....maybe for the end of someones driveway.
thanks for sharing.
Ebe
I would like to apologize for my post I didn't realize you had 160 + posts on this topic when I wrote my $0.02 worth.
Sorry Pete, I just felt that there may be some better choices and I was just trying to help spending hard earned money on something that may not last.
If I get to Ohio, I will certainly swing into your little burb...sounds like a nice place to visit. Maybe even live.... ha ha ha. I think everyone has to lighten up a little.
Good luck with what ever you decide.
Ebe
The first is better but you're getting raped on the cost. Now that you have the template, why not just take it to the local High School and let the wood shop have at it?
Actually for $2k per sign, why not just hire a guy to stand at the corner and tell you where you are?
Edited 5/3/2008 4:56 pm ET by MSA1
LOL!Better yet...just do like they do here in Austin....NO STREET SIGNS! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Actually for $2k per sign, why not just hire a guy to stand at the corner and tell you where you are?
Our hospital here is so maze-like that they have volunteers to actually lead you to where you have to go--mere directions won't work. (GPS might though) When I went for a sleep test, a guy had to meet us near the front door and take us down several halls, up stairs and down stairs and down a couple more halls until we were there. Next day we all had to wait until everyone was ready, then another guy led us back out! I got lost in the hospital one and finally found an exit and went outside--figured if I could see some landmarks or something it would help--nope, not a bit.
When I was in college, people would stop and ask directions and many times I just got into their car and guided them. They'd worry about my time and I'd tell them I could walk back in five minutes from a place it took them ten to drive to! In any case, guiding them in person was lots easier than trying to explain it.
Edited 5/3/2008 7:48 pm ET by Danno
I have noticed that in communities where the city takes pride in the infrastructure (signs, lights, roadways, etc.) the people who live there take more care of their own properties.
On the other hand, I never look at road signs because my GPS receiver has already told me the name of the upcoming side road long before I can read a sign -- even those large signs you propose.
I also navigate strictly by GPS, which is madatory in Austin. But......it's not uncommon for the GPS to show me in a field with no roads and tell me to turn left off the top of an elevated toll road! Um, no thanks...the landing might be too much for the old truck. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07