I’ve always used string levels (aka line levels) for large distances (e.g. ledger boards, soffit lines, etc) but I got to thinking about how accurate such a device could possibly be.
Any thoughts on this? Would a water level (tubing with water in it) be more accurate. Other than lasers which, if I understand correctly, can’t be used unless you have a way of mounting them at the same level that you want to draw your horizontal line, what other tools can I do to get accurate, long (>8 ft) lines?
When deck posts exceed what the prescriptive code tables allow, it's time to consult a structural engineer for post sizing and possible bracing.
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Replies
Line levels are a great concept, but horribly inaccurate. A water level would be an excellent cost effective choice for long distance leveling. I use lasers sometimes as well, just shoot a reference line and then you can pull accurate measurements off of that line (or even use a story pole) if you can't set it up conveniently.
Thanks. I ended up buysing a Zircon water level (fancy version that beeps when level - nice) and it got it within I'd say 1/8" - good enough.
I'm relegating the line level to landscaping projects only from now on.
And thanks for the tip about the laser (shoot marks at ground level and us story pole or tape to transfer to desired height). As obvious as it seems to me now, I hadn't thought of doing that - I feel kinda stupid about that! Now I have an excuse to go buy yet another tool :)
Always happy to help in the justification of another's tool purchases!
One more thing about line levels....
you gotta figure......they're usually free with the purchase of a chalk box or something, right?
Last time I checked, you get nothing for nothing.
Another nice thing to have I've found is a regular box-beam level with a built in laser. The one I have is just a Porter Cable torpedo level w/ laser. I mount it to my 4' Stabila and can get decent accuracy for things like sloping decks or setting ledgers.
level with built in laser? Great. New tool #2.
what do u think of the on-off switch on that PC.
i don't like it. turn it on by accident_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
Sorry for taking so long to respond. I'm on vacation on Cape Cod right now. Just drove back up to take care of some business this morning when things open up.
On/off switch on the little level or the laser? Level bad, laser good.
Yeah, think of the laser level as a kind of electronic transit, LOL.
If you can find an old transit measuring stick to use with the laser level, you're laughing all the way home. Works like a dream. A static laser level works best with two men, like a transit, but you can use it alone if you don't mind walking back and forth a lot. If you want to invest a bit more, look into a rotary unit. Save you a lot on shoeleather....
The weak point with the low-end laser levels is not the laser itself but the tripod and base leveller. Some of the cheaper ones can take you forever to set up.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Thanks everyone for your advice.
I'm pretty suspicious of most of the laser levels on the market. They are only as good as the bubble in the vial and even if that's perfect there's still no guarantee that the level is mounted precisely parallel to the base of the level. Stabila makes one, though, and that's gotta be good.
My experience is that you don't even get what you pay for. I have a Stanley laser which cost a significant sum four years ago and which is out about 3/8" over 50 feet, making it pretty well useless for the purpose I bought it for. Now I do know that Stanley isn't a high end brand name, but there was this fast talking salesman, you see.....
Even water levels aren't completely dependable as you'll find the first time you have one end in the sun and the other end in the shade. Check them frequently by bringing the two ends together.
Ron
as far as a real lazer goes ...
got the PLS2 and the PLS5 last year ...
both work great.
I use the little (and much cheaper) PLS2 much more ...
both auto level ... hardest part is putting the batteries in ...
have hopes to find an excuse to buy the PLS360 ...
makes for a line the whole way around the place ...
btw ... http://www.toolfetch.com is the place to buy these things ... I searched forever for the best price ... they got it.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
S'alright, Jeff, I gave up on the junk and got a Nikon autolevel now. No bright lights but it claims to have an error less than 3/16" at 200'. Good enough to fool most people. I can read sixteenths on a tape at 70' with this thing.
Are you primed and ready for mike's?
Ron
Edited 7/18/2004 3:06 pm ET by RONBUDGELL
Edited 7/18/2004 3:06 pm ET by RONBUDGELL
"Are you primed and ready for mike's?"
yes-sir-ree-bob!
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
When are they gonna make a laser level that projects the diamonds every 19.2 inches? I've went through my string lines and marked em on there but can't get the laser line marked.Who Dares Wins.
What is the significance of 19.2"?
If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand.View ImageWho Dares Wins.
That's an easy one. Just hold your framing square up to the diamonds and shoot your mark with the laser. Then use the tables on your framing square to easily convert it back to 19.2" units. If your framing square won't stay up, just secure it with some drywall screws or other fastener suitable for cabinet hanging.
See how easy that it?
View Image I guess I wasn't thinking. Thanks.Who Dares Wins.
Hey gunner. As you know,16" and 24" are normal spacings in constuction, and will divide into 96" (8') equally. This"ENGINEERS" measure is as close as you can get to divide into 5 parts. Example; 19- 3/16" times 5 = 95-15/16" close enough , seldom used. Thats why, on some tapes (not all) there is a triangular marking at every19-3/16" interval. Actually ,to be more precise,its 19-3/16" plus a hair. Hopes this helps... Hube
And that helps me transfer it to a laser level how?Who Dares Wins.
I was wondering the same thing...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
be nice...he's new to the joke..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
HEY!!!!!!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
my newsest tape has SPADES instead of diamonds wassup with that?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I bought a Big Johnson a few weeks ago then gave it away. It had spades also, I didn't even want to know what that was all about so I unloaded it fast.Who Dares Wins.
gee, that's weird..I was kiddin.
what's next clubs? hearts? we'll be gablin instead of workin..cut a hunk off the tape evry 19.2 inches and " I got a 38.4 of hearts" that beats yer 19.2 of clubs...could be a new way to kill time at lunch..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Ever play dollar poker? (I think that's what they used to call it.) Each of you pull out a buck and somehow compare serial numbers and make up a poker hand out of it. Maybe we could do that with a tape.Who Dares Wins.
dollar poker
1's are aces
0's are 10's
we actually called it Liars poker.
say you got a bill..folded so I can't see it and it has
114227902 for a number
I got 885630021
you start..and say three 2's..cuz ya got em.. no lie
I say four 2's...cuz I KNOW I have one..and THINK you have three..
now we gotta beat 4 2's..
you call outthree 10's (you lied..but really there are 3 cuz I have two..)
I say 4 10's..thinking you MIGHT have 2..and with my 2 that's four..
you say 5 10's...
I call...show me your buck, I show you mine..I only have 2, you only have one...I called the game when you "Lied" at 5
you hand me the buck and we start over, with fresh bills..the used ones get traded in to the barkeep..
I used to carry a bill with 6 1's (aces)..in my wallet..just for some big ol dummy to wanna play high stakes..but I almost got shot, for using it,, so I tore it up...lol
In my old bar days..I'd come home with a WAD of $...lairs poker and playing pool..hardly had to work.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
In my old bar days..I'd come home with a WAD of $...lairs poker and playing pool..hardly had to work.
Sounds good. Now you spend your time sweating on roofs. Have you identified your downfall? PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
My down fall was my divorce..there went the wad of cash.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
That's the way it is suppose to be....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Ouch! Not something I've experienced.
While we're widely digressing, you know anything about acme thread? Visited my (retired) machinist just now and picked up a plug of 4??? steel that will get an acme thread cut in it after I do some very simple machining. Apparently not a big deal with the right lathe. Surprised me, but I've got a whole lot to learn.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Acme is square cut, and a hell of lot stonger than vee cut. I never saw one strip..and never saw a tap or die either.
I think a screw lathe is THE tool for those.
Lemme know what ya learn.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Yep, acme's square, but not "square thread", which is thicker. Maybe a different proportion. He showed me the square thread on his railroad wheel-sized lathe. Far as I know both parts are lathe-cut.
I stripped the thread out of the base of my 3 jaw gear puller. Cast steel base, being replaced with that 4??? steel, a little thicker. Next time something else is supposed to fail. Abuse? What abuse?
There was a good sale on imported lathes last month. He forgot to tell me. I've been looking for a nice used one for awhile. Gotta get one while he's still around to tutor me. Same guy who made a custom gear for my Cat that had 2 gear sizes out of one piece of steel, then tricky tempering. Workin' great now. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
sounds too familiar..a buddy was "hemming in" my wayward spring and installing a new concrete manhole..he was walking his International back hoe by knuckling down the hoe, and lifting up the machine, raise the outriggers and scoot forward and lower the stabilizers again..a walking tripod if you will.
I told him thats a good way to bust sumptin..he says " awe, I do it all the time"
not 2 mins. later I hear a 'boom'..the arm was hanging like a limp you know what..broke the casting with a 4'' dia. SPLINED jiont right at the base of the arm..looked pricy to me.
He came back with tools..( I still don't have water, bathing in the creek) few days later and yanked it off, and said the new splined part was 3K..yikes.
So he took it to a local machine shop, they plasma cut out the internal splines part and fabbed a new mounting block..all for 15oo.oo...and only 3 weeks...damn I was glad to have water again..that creek hair washin got old fast..and in March in NC mtns. that water was cold.
You musta been using the canned spinach to strip a gear puller..of if the casting broke, I'da tried the mig on it. I have a cast aluminun vise "virtuex" or no. it's a "Zyliss" I stripped the floating nut acme thread..I covered the screw with grease, and cast new threads with J-B weld..lol..hey it works.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
You musta been using the canned spinach to strip a gear puller..of if the casting broke, I'da tried the mig on it.
I stripped it.
Once wandered into the local Ford dealer looking for a new lug bolt for an F600. The other customer looked at the snapped one and observed that there must be more to me than meets the eye.
Yep. I understand leverage. Then if you have a job and a tool... The other lug bolts came right out- after cooking them. That 10' cheater bar was a little too much. Or maybe I shouldn't have been jumping on it. Hey, I was eager to trade the truck for my first crawler and part of the deal was to drive it to its new home. Functioning brakes struck me as prudent.
I knew a guy who moved his backhoe without a trailer. Just walked it into his dump truck, stilt style. Never broke anything that I heard of. Sure looked strange. You've seen the railroad car pictures?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Here's a site that shows the difference between square and acme threads. Scroll down to the end.
http://www.mech.uwa.edu.au/DANotes/threads/intro/intro.html
Here's a site that shows the difference between square and acme threads.
Most interesting, thank you.
My acme threads were too small and encrusted for me to notice the angle. Either my guy knew the application or his eyesight's better than I thought. But the same guy'll pick up a rusty piece of scrap and go on about the steel type and what its possibilities are. Like the piece we're using, doesn't temper well. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Gunner>>> "I bought a Big Johnson a few weeks ago... so I unloaded it fast."
I keep getting e-mails about them, always wondered if it was worth it.
Nope some times too much is uncomfortable to pack around. Your better off with a little smaller but manuverable.Who Dares Wins.
I see the wife has been trying to boost your self esteem
"I bought a Big Johnson "
did you type that with a straight face?_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
I tried to.Who Dares Wins.
You bought a big johnson ?
You BOUGHT a big johnson ???
Never mind, I don't even want to know.
*shudder*
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
My big johnson says "swan" sometimes and other times says "saskatchewan"
Mine has a tat of a Springer Harley on it....
Great pick up line to use on the babes... "Wanna ride my Harley"....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
When girls used to ask me if I had anymore tatoos other the the ones they could see. I would tell them"Yep I got a battleship on my stomach." (when I had a flat stomach.) Then I'd pull up my shirt and look all proud. They would of course look and see nothing, then I would look down then up real quick and blurt out. "It must have sunk!" Then start acting like I was going to pull down my pants to look for it. They always got a kick out of it.
Who Dares Wins.
Edited 7/24/2004 3:04 am ET by Gunner
Edited 7/24/2004 9:52 pm ET by Gunner
You take a zircon ring, you know the one that you got your wife for an aniversery gift and told her is was a real 2 carrat diamond, but you actually paid $19.95 on the TV shopping network.
Take that and shine the laser on it.
It will project a matrix of diamond horizonataly and veritically on the wall.
yep...quartz works too..
tourlamine makes a CIRCLE..
we used to do it all the time in the "Gem Capital of the World" Franklin, NC.
shot lasers at soooo many differnt gems..way cool.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Think the wife will miss her anniversery present?Who Dares Wins.
yup, what DP said..
how tite can ya get the string?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I use mason's line for the line level. Can usually get that tight enough to play a high C on it ;)
One really big advantage of water levels is that they can "see" around corners, something that no other level can do. This is especially handy when establishing a level line in a odd-shaped room, or when establishing level on the outside of a building when, eg, preparing for siding.
You string level could be more accurate if you make sure it's in the center of your two points. Any sag should be equal this way. Of course this is assuming the bubble vial is accurate.
Jon Blakemore
IMO decent quality line levels can be good enough for a lot of work. One of my first bosses pointed out that it depends on getting it near the center of the line run. The line will sag some no matter how tight you get it. The ends will tilt toward the middle. The middle will be much more correctly in relation to the line.
As an electrician I usually only carry a torpedo level. I keep a 2' and 4' level on the truck but these stay mostly unused. Even something as rigid as 1/2" conduit sometimes, seems to depend on the brand, can have enough flex to give a false reading if you read the level when it is near the end of a 10' run supported at both ends.
On long runs I have come to depend on a water level. I don't have a laser level and I'm not sure I want one. I have seen laser levels, assumed to be accurate, give false readings after being set up wrong, bumped after setup or thrown into the truck one too many times. I'm not the only person to check a laser level against a water level and find the laser level wanting. High tech doesn't always translate into 'better'.
A lot of emphasis is placed on accuracy but nothing is ever absolutely accurate. Anything approaching true accuracy doesn't remain that way for long. Long ago I learned that the best references are only accurate shortly after being calibrated and under standard conditions. Temperature, moisture or pressure changes distort materials.
It tickles me to see precision woodworkers fiddle with machinery to the last thousandths of an inch. Never mind that opening the shop door or a cold front moving through the area can cause the wood to swell or warp enough to make their tweaking meaningless. No loss as long as they enjoy the process I guess.
True accuracy is an illusion. The only relevant measure is how accurate must it be? Or what is the smallest sensible measurement. HOs don't usually check surfaces with laboratory grade laser references. A bit off is normal. As long as that bit remains below what they can sense your usually fine.
In this context a line level, properly used, is probably good enough for most slabs. They have been used, in some form, for generations. It isn't like houses suddenly became orders of magnitude more accurately put together when laser levels came out. A good standard for plumb and level in construction often, IMHO, has more to do with the care and skill of the tradesmen than with what equipment they use.
A good experiment would be to set up a line, water and laser levels and compare readings. Maybe the setup of of line level could be tweaked to increase accuracy. Same with he others. Ideally all of them could be adjusted to read relatively the same.
After 'roughing' it with a line level, you can fine tune your line with a long spirit level for better accuracy.
My beeping Zircon water level is now in retirement. I just got the Porter Cable 3-beam torpedo level. I'm building a 14' x 24' deck with screen house on top. I used the lazer for laying out footings (90 deg beams), determining Sonotube length, determining post heights and squaring the frame. Imagine my delight as I checked things at every step of the way with levels and squares and found them right on.
This tool made things so quick and easy I found myself looking for other ways to use it.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
what do you mount the PC on?_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
The PC lazer comes with a nifty little base that has leveling screws that allow you to set it up on any surface that's at least about 3" wide and 6" long. This can be used when setting up the level on a beam, on the floor, on a block or most other places.
I also bought a $40 Northern Tools lazer level (From Amazon.Com) that comes with a tripod, figuring the money was worth the tripod alone. The PC unit clamps into the tripod pretty well and the telescoping legs are fine, but this tripod isn't very easy to level and things wiggle around a bit, so I am always double-checking. You get what you pay for, I guess.
I set this tripod up in the middle of my deck project and swung the beam around to all the pier locations as my assistant held a story pole. The depth to each footing was determined by marking the position of the lazer's dot on the pole and measuring to the bottom of the hole. We used these data to determine the lengths of the Sonotubes. Later, we used the same technique to determine the lengths of the 6x6 posts that sit atop the concrete piers.
This Northern Tools level might be an inexpensive way to try out a lazer. I wanted the PC unit, however, because of it's 90 deg. beams that can be used for lay-out and squaring things up.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
I have one, but no tripod for it, was wondering what u used._____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
Yes, I'm eyeing a laser level too. Curious to know what tripod you use. Presumably, the quality of the tripod will be a major factor in accuracy (or is your PG self-levelling?)
See my reply to Bobl above.
The PC lazer in not self-leveling. It's basically a torpedo level that shoots three lazer beams (straight, left, and up) with two perpendicular spirit vials to level it up and down and left and right. It comes with a small metal base with two leveling screws that works very well on most surfaces. A good tripod would be very helpful when there is no good surface handy or when you want to shoot at multiple locations from one spot.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA