What’s the strongest/best (maybe two different questions) ways to tie joists to beams and headers? Are joist hangers that much better than toe nailing from both sides? Read something recently that end nailing wasn’t nearly as good as toe nailing but the article didn’t address joist hangars. Would the answer be any different for LVL vs solid wood?
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Hangers are FAR better than toe nailing, IMHO.
End nailing is a bad idea, except to hold something for a minute or two while it's fastened permenantly.
Don't forget about the wonderful world of LEDGERS!!!
Jon Blakemore
Looking at some on-line building codes, it looks like they equate toe-nailing with 3 8d nails to end-nailing with 2 16d nails.I must have something wrong here. A joist held up with 3 8d nails? That's for attachment to rim joist e.g. according to city of Pasadena:http://www.ci.pasadena.ca.us/permitcenter/pdf/typevsht.pdfBTW someone tell the Pasadena building dept that it's "Dimensions" (page 4, column 1). Sheesh. My interest in this is, I end-nailed with 16d nails when I built a small pocket in ceiling joists for a shower light. Joist hangers not an option because it was old wood.
If I follow that those nails aren't supporting the joist.The joist is supported by the top plates or sillplate.Those nails just keep it from over turning.
Best is to set the joist on top of a beam or ledger (with appropriate blocking to keep it from rolling). After that, some sort of hanger. For most normal applications the joist will fail before an appropriately sized Simpson hanger fails.
End nailing is very weak, due to the way the wood grain works out. Toenailing is better.
A number of old farts use hangers AND toenailing.
Simpsons LUS hangeers are designed for both. They are fastest to use, and yiou cannot hang one without toenailing.Young blankety blank whippersnapper;)
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"Simpsons LUS hangeers are designed for both. They are fastest to use, and yiou cannot hang one without toenailing."
Actually, it's not toe nailing - It's "double shear" nailing. Not really the same thing.
Ah, the thrill of modern dance! The sweeping musical majesty, the joy of poetic motion, the challenge of stuffing a dollar bill into a bouncing G-string...
>>>>"Actually, it's not toe nailing - It's "double shear" nailing. Not really the same thing."What's the difference?
Jon Blakemore
Toe nailins is when there are no hangers. The nails are driven in at roughly a 45° angle through the supported member (joist) into the supporting member (beam).
Double shear nailing is something Simpson came up with. The nails are driven through the hanger and both members at an angle. This gives them a higher design value, as the end on the nail near the head rests on the hanger.
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If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.
I'll concede that the design value is higher but I still think it's a toe nail through a hanger hole.
Jon Blakemore
It's similar, but not exactly the same thing. The end of the nail out by the head is RESTING on the hanger. You don't get that with toenailing.That gives it the higher design value. And I would think it would actually make the the connection stronger - It's not just an empty theory.
When we are young we try to hide our poverty. When we grow older we brag about it.
But when I've seen toenailing "fail" (when doing demo), it's usually been the nails bending and pulling out of the ledger -- relatively little motion at the nail head.Of course, demo tends to put different stresses on the joints, even when you don't have the far end of the joist free to twist it.
I can understand them getting higher design values by the fact that the exact placement within a confining framework controls the angle of the fastener and prevents spitting, making the toenail more precise, and I can see them giving it a new name to take credit for it, and possibly patent it, and all this is great stuff -But it is stil a toenail, just more accurately placed and re-inforced by the hanger
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Howdy BH.
I don't have a clue what the answer to the original poster's question is.I wouldn't know what I was talking about so I'll shut tfu.Unlike a whole BUNCH of people on this site anymore.
B.
I can undersrtand that there are two shear points in each nail from an engineers point of view, but from a carpenter's POV, it is toenailing. Wanna explain why is functionally different other than just a different name?
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As I said earlier - I believe it *IS* actually stronger than toenailing because the head of the nail is supported. With toe nailing, you have only one shear point - Where the nail comes out of the supported member into supporting member. The double shear nailing adds the point where the nail exits the supported member and goes through the hanger. That point also supports weight.
I care not for a man's religion whose dog or cat are not the better for it. [Abraham Lincoln]
I'm not arguing the strength of the joint. I agree with that. It is the renaming of a certain way of driving a nail into a connection point. The nail is still a toenail.
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"The nail is still a toenail."
Gues we're just gonna have to disagree on this one.
Good thing neither of us is hard headed.
(-:
Yesterday I went fishing with dotted line. I caught every other fish.
I'd say that given the amt of Geermanic blood we have, we are extremely compromising fellows, LOL
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With the hanger the toe nails are only holding the joist from pulling away from the rim . The hanger nails and bottom /seat is keeping the joist from droping ,like a mini ledger.
"With the hanger the toe nails are only holding the joist from pulling away from the rim."
That's not at all true. The angled nails are designed to hold weight or they wouldn't be there.
The double shear nailing allows Simpson to require less nails per hanger to get the same design loads as other hanger manufacturers.
Anyone who says he can see through women is missing a lot.
I'll second the joist hangers.
What I can't figure out is how all these houses are still standing that were built before Simpson ties were invented. Things that make you go hmmmmm. :-)
Dave
Most of them used essentially a beam/ledger approach, except for the balloon framed houses.
Thats 'Mr.' old fart to you.<G>Ledgers are face/end nailed.Ahh, what was the question?
Well, I'm no building historian, but from what I've seen, in the days before joist hangers, joists mostly sat on top of beams. I've never seen a ledger live, in person.
I see a lot of opinions around here, but very few facts.
How about everybody chip in $10. and run it by an engineer (something else I seldom see around here).
Or Calvin could mock-up a 10x10 deck at the fest and then everybody could try to break it!
And Reason alone can never explain
how the Heart behaves.
Mike, pretty busy with meeting and greeting. Why don't you take a couple days off, come up and lead the seminar? Love to have you.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Ken
Use the numbers that Fine home building published in their book on roofing..
Toenailing requires only 208 pounds prior to failure.
Clips fail between 497 & 1216 pounds
And 3/8ths inch x8inch lag bolts fail at 2783
Now I'm sure that someone will tell me about this clip or that clip that they found or used but those are the numbers listed..
Mind you all numbers are average and a weak piece of wood or old growth will affect the numbers dramatically..
They did use 16p nails to toe nail and found that most of them split the wood and required predrilling prior to use to effectively hold thus the numbers listed are for 8p nails..
Of course you could always do what we timberframers do,
.... Mortice and tenion everything and then cross peg it plus lag bolt it together.. average connection can easily be done in a few hours if you want..
Of course you might take a great deal of pride in doing it this way and we all know that faster is better isn't it?
Of course you might take a great deal of pride in doing it this way and we all know that faster is better isn't it?
If I'm paying you by the hour, then yes. ;)
jt8
Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful. -- Ann Landers
Faster is nice.You done with your house yet?
Jon Blakemore
The guy that I work with,
we used to call ourselves:
"Steinway and Baldwin".And Reason alone can never explain
how the Heart behaves.
.... Mortice and tenion everything and then cross peg it plus lag bolt it together..
You got something against dovetails? Mine left the building inspector shaking her head as she left. Hadda climb the ladder to see what was holding them up.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks guys.Someday, I'll build a timber-framed house with some awesome mortise and tenons, but for now, it's just stick building for me. (Actually, I'll be calling one of you to build that place for me...not enough skills here to do that fine of work!)Good info on the joist hangers! I'll be using those to tie in the joists to my new beam... the subject of another thread.Hopefully, I'll get equally good advice on that question too!
Ken!
Don't for one minute think that you can't build a timberframe.. Not one minute!
Look at me.. My experince with wood working started when I flunked woodshop, that meant I ignored wood working really untill I started this timberframe..
I bought the tools and bought the wood and started.. (someday I promise to draw up a set of plans)
I can't figure out angles or much of the math involved (I'm math phobic) I don't know what all those little marks on a tape measure are and my eyesight is getting bad enough that they're pretty much a blur anyway.
I'm 56 years old, 100 pounds overweightand my day job has me pretty sedentary so any resemblance to muscle has long since left me.. Yet if others are to be believed the house is pretty awesome. Sure there are mistakes and things I would have done differant but Nobody who looks at the place says negative things (except maybe about my insanity for starting such a project)
In short If I can do it, you'll create a masterpiece!
VaTom
Actually yes, I don't like to do dovetails. I'm too snotty to acceet the inevetable shrinkage that happens when the timbers dry out.. and the joint loosens up
Exuse number two, I can't consistantly do great dovetails so I just don't use them..
Excuse number three, Half laps are good enough for me.
Excuse number 4, My next house will have dovetails.
I've done quite a bit of timber framing and I love dovetails....mostly because I enjoy cutting/chiseling them out and making nice fits.
My love of dovetails is exemplified in my shop, where the 5x5 roof purlins are dovetailed into the 8x10 rafters.
Unfortunately, all the great worksmanship I put into about 60 dovetail joints is covered by the roof sheathing.
(But I know they're there!)
personally i toe nail them first , move along and have a laborer cum back and install hangers on a rainy day or when he's standing around picking his nose wondering what to do.
tyke
Just another day in paradise
Yeah, I know that some folks like to do it that way. It lets you align the top edge better, when there's a lot of variability in lumber width. You just need to be sure that your guy doesn't forget to install the hangers, and that you don't block access for nailing until the hangers are in.
yeah i know. forgetting is not something i like to hear my guys say and i try to keep on top of them. my biggest problem is if some of the joista are either a little lower than the others these young guys dont take the time chgisel out for the hanger to compensate or any other method that will make things easier on down the line.even some of the more experienced guys dont do this. gets me so pissed sometimes i think ill blow a gasket. loltyke
Just another day in paradise
That is a common method, but i hope you go back and check on him. Too often that crappy job goes to the guy on the bottom of th eladdder, and the quality of his work shows it - one of the more important structural functions being hended off to the one least apt to do it right...and if you are building a deck 18" off the ground, it gets hard for him to crawl under there after the decking is on.
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
yes sir i dotyke
Just another day in paradise
Ken,
If I understand you correctly you have a flush beam let's say 3-1/2" x 9-1/2" microlam, paralam or whatever beam you use, you then have to nail your joists into that beam by toenailing it, there's no other way. After you toenail it you then have to put joist hangers on it.
If you have a flush beam made out of 2 - 1-3/4" x 9-1/2" micro's you can put one up and endnail/facenail it but you still have to put joists hangers on the joists.
When I first started framing whenever we built a house with a sunken living room we would nail a 2x4 ledger on the girders and just sit the joists on top of the 2x4 giving us 1-1/2" bearing amd that's all you needed. Now they don't allow that anymore even though those houses are still standing.
No matter what way you nail a joist into a flush beam you still need hangers on them.
Your way takes away any 'errors' our helper will do. Mark the layout, line on both sides...in our case,2 1/2" TJIs.
Not 2" or 1 3/4" on some. ahh....what was the question ?