Replies

1. 
   csnow | May 04, 2005 07:36pm | #1

   From what you describe,  you may have a 'pregnant' wall.  The studs are bowed out in the middle?

   Or, is the problem that the bottom of the studs have kicked outwards, perhaps from a foundation problem?  Are the floors roughly level?

   Is there any possibility that the subfloor was just cut in a rough manner?  They did not care much about the fitment of the subfloor.

   If the wall is bowed out, it can sometimes be pulled (or pushed) in and secured. I did similar work recently on a small addition that was not properly designed to carry a 2nd storey that was added on top.  Getting to perfectly straight is unrealistic, but I got close.  This work can be tricky and may require significant demolition to get at the problem.  The bowing may indicate that it is under-structured to begin with, meaning the wall would need to be reinforced.  In your area, homes of that vintage were typically over-structured, so this is suspicious. I think it would be very difficult to get a reliable estimate without excavating the problem further.

   This is one of those problems where there are several methods that could be employed to solve it.  Just for example, my bowed studs were straightened using steel 'strongbacks' and lags into the studs.  Then the studs were bolted to new sisters, and a shear wall was built to lock everything in place.  Your 2 storey problem would reguire a different solution.

1. 
   rez | May 04, 2005 08:03pm | #2

   What would you do? Place a straight beam outside on each of the walls with a turnbuckle/cable pulled till gaps are tight?

   Not having any plaster cracks is the red flag for me unless you could see that plaster repairs had been made somewhere in the past.

   You think it might have been built that way?

   sobriety is the root cause of dementia.

   Edited 5/4/2005 1:04 pm ET by the razzman

1. 
   csnow | May 04, 2005 08:40pm | #3

   "What would you do? Place a straight beam outside on each of the walls with a turnbuckle/cable pulled till gaps are tight?"

   Might work, but what is the other end of the cable attached to?  If  attached to other wall, the nightmare scenario is that the other wall moves in.  This means you may need to do something on the opposite wall to brace it.  Sometime it is easier to push from the outside.  One method is to attach a ledger to the outside wall, and push on it with jacks using diagonal braces to the ground.  This can also be done with a 't-brace' instead of a ledger.  Of course, the higher you go, the harder this is to do.  Pregnant masonry structures are often fixed in this way.

   Bet there are a dozen other methods.

   Edited 5/4/2005 1:49 pm ET by csnow

2. 
   Mongo | May 04, 2005 09:41pm | #4

   Did exactly that on a triple-decker in Worcester (MA) many moons ago.

   Box beams on the outsides of the opposite walls.

   Ran either four of five cables and turnbuckles from outside wall to outside wall.

   I remember pre-stretching the cable by tying it off to a telephone pole on one end and tying the other end to the ball hitch on the truck.

   Used opposing windows for a couple of the cables, but had to pop holes in said walls for the others.

   Snugged everything tight, then took apart as much as could be taken apart.

   Snugged everything tighter than it wanted to be. I forget how many, but it was done over the course of three or four days, I think.

   Used simpson plates to reconnect the joists with the studs.

   Released the turnbuckles.

   Patched what needed to be patched...floor and baseboard.

   Collected the check, and after it cleared changed the name of the company and ran far, far away. Just kidding. Worked fine. Years later my brother bought the building and he now lives there.

   Oh, to have had a sawzall back then!

    

1. 
   alecs | May 04, 2005 11:38pm | #5

   Hi,

   Thanks for your replies.  To answer some additional questions that you all raised:

   1) it's not possible that it was just "built that way".  The floor is T&G SYP and it used to be tucked under the baseboard.  Now there's that pesky gap, which is how I can tell the distance between the subfloor and the studs. 

   2) Here's some new information based on a structural assessment that the current owner conducted 12 years ago.  I expected that the second story floor joists ran perpendicular to the "pregnant wall" side of the house, since this is the direction they run in the basement.  The structural report indicates that they run parallel to the pregnant wall on the second floor.  This changes the ability to run permanent cabling through the floor to tighten up the house without drilling holes in each joist. 

   This second piece of info really confuses me. 

   Thanks

   Alec

    

2. 
   dustinf | May 05, 2005 12:31am | #6

   I would guess the sill is compromised.  As the outside of the sill rots away the wall wants to roll toward the outside, creating a bow in the balloon frame.  I would check the sill(if you don't know what that is, it's the wood that rests on top of the foundation, basically transitions from the masonry foundation to wood framing).  I would think that a home inspector would check this if was easy to see from the basement, but I would double check.

   Another tell tale sign of sill damage is if the grade of the yard pitches toward the house, or if the landscaping/topsoil is piled up against the house.

    

1. 
   alecs | May 05, 2005 01:05am | #7

   Dustin,

   If I am correct in the terminology, there is no sill in this framing method, just a rim joist.  If there were a sill, the floor joists would sit on top of it, right?  In this case, the floor joists sit directly on top of the fieldstone foundation, and they are tied together at the outside with a rim joist.  Does this make sense?  I'm having a hard time figuring out how the vertical wall studs would be attached to this.  Would they end at the subfloor on the first floor, or extend alongside the floor joists and be attached there?  I don't remember seeing the studs in the basement. 

   (As a side note, my current house is also balloon framed and has a proper sill on the foundation wall and floor joists that sit on top of it, wall studs tied into the sides of the joists.)

   The inspector checked the interior side of the rim joist and it seemed OK.  The outside is covered in siding and it was not checked.  The basement is a walk out in the back, so the foundation sits 4' or so above grade at the area in question - don't think the sill / rim joist would be affected by ground grading or surface water.

   But one thing that does point to a problem where the studs might have kicked out at the bottom is that the same gap that's visible on the second floor between the finished floor and the base board is also visible on the first floor, suggesting that the wall has migrated outwards there as well.  On visual inspection though, it seems that the gap is bigger at the middle of the balloon than at the foundation. 

   Hmmm....  perplexing.

   Alec

1. 
   dustinf | May 05, 2005 01:42am | #8

    

    

   Pardon the drawing, it's freehand with a touch pad.  but the black are the floor joist, red is sill and blue is stud all the way to roof. 

   That is the way it should be framed, now you can see if the sill is rotted away how the wall would roll forward.

   That picture is terrible, but anyways something to laugh at.

   Is there a gutter or siding failing on that wall?  Because any way water can get in will rot the sill.

1. 
   rez | May 05, 2005 08:15am | #9

    

   sobriety is the root cause of dementia.