Hello to all,
I usually do a lot of reading, here and on knots, trying to learn as much as possible but this is the first time I ask a question in this forum.
I’m hoping that someone can point me in the right direction because the more I learn, the less I seem to know. I want to build one house in which to spend the rest of my days. My background education is has a driller/blaster and mining/geological technician so I dreamed up a house with exterior walls made of stone like in the old days and rich woodwork inside. I’m learning a lot from knots for the woodworking part of it but I’m having trouble finding live experience for the stone building. I’ve bought excellent books over the years and they all show how to build good walls but not how to build a house out of it.
So here’s the question:
As anyone here ever built a house out of stone or is there a association of builders ( website would be great) with this kind of experience?
My main interrogations are has follows:
Concrete vs mortar; there are some contradiction about whether to use rigid concrete or plastic mortar between the rocks.
How does moisture interact with a stone wall? The structural walls will be insulated from the exterior with a 3-4″ coat of sprayed polyurethane sandwiched between the structural wall and the veneer stone wall.
Do I have to protect the wood that comes in contact with with the structural wall? The floor will be held up by clear span engineered wood beams with steel mesh.
How hard is it to drill through it for plumbing and electrical work; will the mortar hold up/ will the bit drill a straight hole?
What wight do the foundation/ walls have to be for a two story ( 10′ walls) house.
How do I prepare the wall for ad-ons in the future; Thinking ahead for the future generations.
It’s a lot of trouble compared to a conventional house but I think it’s more of a philosophical statement than a shelter.
Like for knots, I would like to thank all those who share their experience. I have already benefited from the immense wealth of information here and I’m am looking forward to being able to do the same for others.
Rehab.
Replies
Are you saying a stone house, or a stone veneer on a house? Every new stone house in our area (lots of stone houses - limestone) is built with block and covered with real stone, 4-6" thick. I know several stone masons, and they rebuild barns of all stone etc, but new construction is generally a veneer (a very thick one)
Are you doing this yourself? I would recommend you spend some time with a stone mason if possible. Most of it is straightforward, but there are a few details and techniques special to stone.
The masons I know use mortar with stone dust added to help keep the heavy stones from moving while it cures. They also use small stone chips as wedges to support the building stones while the mortar cures. I am building a retaining wall next summer, and I'll probably use bags of concrete to lay stone, then point with regular mortar later. And btw - If anyone tells you to slipform with stones, ask to see their work.
Put conduit in ahead of time for plumbing etc., keep untreated wood away from your stone, standard construction details elsewhere.
It also takes a very long time to do stonework, but stone houses just get prettier as time goes by...
Brian, thank you for the reply.
The house will have both structural stone and stone veneer. The skeleton of the house will be made of stone walls like they did them 300 years ago. There are a few examples of these houses still standing in the province and they have a special something about them that you can't find anywhere else. I find that this something is still present even in the burned down ones. The land is actually part of the realestate of an old carry so stone is plentiful and cheap. However, it's common to see -40°C in winter around here so I have to insulate. So far I think that sprayed polyurethane will be the better choice but it has to be covered; hence the veneer.
It's a do-it-yourself project and I would love to study with a stone mason that does this kind of work but it's a dying art with few experienced practitioner left. My job is also un-yielding at times which complicates a learning agenda. So far I learn where I can. I've put up dry stone walls with a landscaping company and veneer on my uncle house. All with satisfactory results. I'm also doing a lot of trial and error learning on splitting and shaping stone with wedges, points and hammers.
As for time to build, it a two part project. A small garage/loft for immediate housing and the main house for future housing. The loft should be quick to build and take care of immediate needs, leaving more time to build the main house next to it.
I will look into how to put in conduits ahead of time
Thank you for your advice,
Rehab.
If you are planning on stone for the structure, there's two things to plan ahead.
One is openings. Openings will have to have lintels, and they will not have a handy sizing table handy. The lintels will want supporting, too--which becomes something that "drives" the design (as in, if a window is within xxx of a door or another window, you'll need a longer--probably deeper--lintel than the single opening suggests).
What that means is that you'll almost want to design from the elevations, rather than the plans--which is not a 'normal' sort of design method.
The second thing to plan is the transition from walls to roof. This could be as simple as anchoring the equivalent of a "mudsill" to the top of the wall. Could be more complicated, too (the spans of the roof & ceiling will get pretty critical, quickly).
The attchment of the roof starts to dictate some other, medium-critical items, like how the soffits on the roof overhangs attach and the like.
What you might want to consider, though, is a post-and-beam structure. No matter what the material of the p-a-b "is," the stone can then be filled in between and arround, and however is necessary. Timber, steel, some amalgam--there are a number of options.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Very valid points CapnMac.
I'm starting to think that the more a tell about this project of mine, the crazier people will think I am.
Openings:
I'm still experimenting with the nuts and bolts of the Catenary method of load distribution to stabilize the forces around openings. What I was thinking of doing was to build relieving arches in the wall so that the lintels would bare less of the load and that some opposing loads would cancel each other out. I still haven't read and understood Jacques Heyman's " The Stone Skeleton". So that idea might change. From what I see in Ian Cramb's book, building them should be within my reach. I plan on using them for the baker's oven this summer.
The wall to roof transition:
Hadn't really thought about that one...
To stabilize the walls and give the structure rigidity I had planed building two large cheminies on opposing walls. Each wall is also flanked by a room ( living room and family room) that are lower. Kind of like disguised flying buttresses. The way the roof loads would act on these structure was an afterthought until now. I'll have to think it over.
I still have a lot of homework to do before the final draft and stamps of approval.
Got me thinking, thank you.
Rehab.
" On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
Rehab - your project has been on my mind all evening.
I think you would get all the benefits you desire, and a house to live in while you add the stones if you would consider an ICF (insulated concrete form) house with stone outside, and some inside as well. You would get:
Wide window sills
Foam Insulation
Thermal Mass
True Stone Construction (and in the walls just smaller stones with cement and sand)
Near Zero Air Infiltration
Strong reinforced Concrete headers, walls, etc.
Flat, square walls with easy wiring and plumbing
Incredible Sound Attenuation
I am suggesting this as I sit in a warm ICF house - the most solid, draft free, easy to heat, comfortable house I have been in. Rather straightforward to build as well. Add stones as your energy level allows.
Just my $ 0.02
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Thank you Brian, I'll look it up.
Rehab.
Got me thinking, thank you
No sweat (yet). Better to be thinking now, than 8-10' up on jacks or scaffolds.
One of the few benefits of years spent trudging through architecture curriculum, is occasionally learning a usefull thing or two.
Some of the "rhythms" of old masonry buildings are "set" by the need to support openings. Oh, and don't forget that you are likely going to have two lintels--one for the structure, another for the veneer--that will make for a finicky joint that will want care for flashing/sealing, etc. (and thus, are really, really, bad details to leave to the end--not that you'd do that; but that others have, and not to the benefit of a long, healthy, decreased-stress, sort of life).
Trusses are likely a direction for roof structure for you--and timber trusses rather than 2x "stock" trusses, too (if only to preserve the character of the building).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
If I could put it with a bit of humor, I'd say that you are absolutely dead wrong; I would certainly forget or be ignorant of such a detail and leave such details for the end.:-).
Actually, the idea of weatherizing the joint between the veneer and stone wall comes out of the blue for me. I might have caught this detail in the drafting process but then again there are too many things to think about at that point. Better to have it in mind now. Anything else come to mind?
Spent the night up doing sketches in elevation. Openings are either high and narrow by themselves or wide if a few are brought under a massive relieving arch. Nothing scientific, just intuitive sketches. I plan on taking a day in Old Montreal and Québec city to get a feel for those "rhythms" you mentioned. They have buildings there that come up to the side walk. Much easier to see than with binoculars...
Also took a look at timber framing. It would make a spectacular ceiling but I'll have to do a lot of reading before I can imagine how to tie it in the project.
Peteshlagor wrote that "Stone work is in the details" thank you for providing some of those details.
Rehab.
"On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
Rehabhog,
By all means timberframe the roof/ceiling!
It would be an absolute crime not to, not to mention that it most likely cost you less!
Not difficult to figure out.. I can walk you thru the steps if you'd like, there's quick and easy ways to do it, there are artistic and challenging ways and there are ways that turn working with wood into a whole new art form..
If I could put it with a bit of humor
No worries, came right through to me. Those of us who first started with IRC (Internet Relay Chat) will put expressions/emotions into 'control code' brackets; so to indicate humor we'd add <grin>. Nowadays, that's down to <g> or :-)
Frenchy is also working hard to also make sure "we" all get this right (which you have likely also noticed).
This learning "on the job" is tough enough when a person is young, resiliant, and flexible--tough sledding on the "one" house one wants to build.
Ah ha! Did just have another thought--you mentioned finished wood for the interior. How will that interior "skin" be applied to the exterior structural stone? I'm thinking that you could approach that rather in the way basement walls are, with a semi-freestanding wall upon which the interiro finish is applied. This will help simplify your utilities "issues," as you can run wiring & like in that space. That makes connecting to the outside (like an electrical outlet or for a light fixture) a relatively-simple 90º turn out to the needed location.
That also might help if some of your lintels "want" to be a different thickness than the wall under them. That's not so big a deal behind the veneer; bit more work on the inside, though.
The divil is in the details; unless one would rather Einstein's quote--either way works.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I find stone to be a very beautiful exterior finish but not so much an interior one in my mind. It's the everlasting quality of stone that drives me to build out of it. I've always imagined the interior full to the brim with woodwork. Exceptions would be stone tiles, counter tops, fireplace and hardware. Accents. That is just my tastes tough. The interior of Frenchy's house seems to be very close to what I want to build so I read a lot of what he has to say in knots.
In the original post, the wood finish was one of my concerns. If I put woodwork in front of the stone how will moisture react between the two? By insulating on the outside I figure that the stone will be approximately the same temperature as the inside of the house so there shouldn't be condensation. But that's just intuition.
I think that this tread has given me a lot to chew on. I better get to work.
Thank you rehab.
"On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
Rehabhog,
If you intend to connect interior stone to wood you need to be aware that unless you seal off the moisture from ground water moisture it will wick thru stone work the same as it will wick thru cement..
Based on our discussions so far I hadn't heard that you had any special plans to deal with that..
Thus the moisture problem present of wood to stone connections apply.. you need to isulate the wood from the stone..
Yes, be careful with slipform work. I think it looks like crap or I suppose one can say it is a STYLE. Slipform is relatively easy and I think it was created as a cheap building technic. Just find any stone and a little concrete and throw it all between some forms and walla! a wall. And it looks like a bunch of stone was thrown between some forms along with some concrete!
What wight do the foundation/ walls have to be for a two story ( 10' walls) house.
You will need a local engineer to answer that one. Different soil types will support different loads, you will need to figure your load and go from there.
The colder it gets, the deeper you go,the more it weighs the wider you go, a soils engineer will have the answer.
2 story = 10' seems like it's gonna be kinda low to me?
Joe H
Hi JoeH,
10' for two stories is low. Actually, it's the inside walls that are 10'-ish. As for the fondation, It will be sitting directly on bedrock; there is no soil to speak of where I want to build. Im going to have to blast one weekend but I should get a useful quantify of rock out of it.
Your recommendation to consult an engineer is well taken but for this kind of work I would like to have some solid experience to back up what the engineers will recommand. I've had to "inspire" to many solutions to these guys shortsightedness to have blind faith in them. Also a stone wall isn't a concrete wall. Still it would be irresponsible of me not to make them part of the equation and have all drafts approved.
Thank you for your advice
Rehab.
What part of the world are you doing this project in. Makes a huge difference as to who and what may be available for expert help.
Many Years ago I worked near Monroe N.Y. local german trained stone mason did all the stone work, he was an artist !!
I now live in western Or., and doubt there is a real stone mason within 200 miles of me. Lots of masons who work with stone, but no stone masons.
Hi dovetail,
I'm from Québec, Canada. I realize that stonework is a diying art, relatively speaking and even if this province as some of the oldest European style masonry in North America, it doesn't have enough very high end projects to attract and keep many such artisans. Also, this is a diy project with a tight budget so directly hiring such an artist might be a bit to much for my wallet.
I have however glimpse at what they are capable of. There's a rich old lady with old money that built a vineyard in the mountains. She hired a old world stone mason to build a small dry wall stone chapel. From what I can see from the road, it's truly a work of art. All the stones seem perfect for where they are, just like piece from a puzzle. To bad he's gone...
Thanks for the reply,
Rehab.
dove are you making an artistic point by saying you know masons who work with stone vs stone masons? A bit criptic.
I guess one could put it that way.
I know a lot of people who have built cabinets as well, but few real cabinet makers.
I was mostly referring to the apprenticeship/training that stone masons receive. Maybe it is just a way of thought, of approach , of vision but a trained stone mason's work is different than that of a mason who sometimes lays stone.EDIT
1) This "vision" is not all about the "look" of the finished product , but about the stucture and strength as well.
2) Just wanted to add that my originial post was actually aimed at trying to get the OP to search out a local "Stone Mason" for help in answering his (OP's)questions. Not to hire the mason to do the job, but to seek guidance from.
I am interested in how traditional stone work meets standards of the building codes that are in place almost everywhere these days. Strikes me that the walls consist of large sections of unsupported and non reinforced(in terms of seismic activity) masonary. Not trying to make a commentary, just expressing interest in the issue. I myself have no clue, just the question.
Edited 1/9/2007 3:37 pm ET by dovetail97128
I find it hard to beleive you can not find a full time stone mason within 200 miles (!!!) of anywhere in OR. Go to hundreds of places in OR, WA, ID, and or MT and you see stone and timber everywhere. I do not live in one of those places and am not in the business either so I don't know of any stone masons in my town, but I do know a full time mason in the very NW corner of MT. That falls pretty close to your 200 mile radius. LOL. They are out there. Easy to find? Maybe not, but in teh NW not that hard.
rehabhog,
It sounds stupid but I paid somebody to put stone on a portion of my house, It was expensive so I watched what they did and when the work was done looked at it from a critical viewpoint.
Everything I'd read about stone work was either wrong or they'd done a poor job.. Since book after book repeated the same thing I assumed they did poor work. They came very highly recommended by several builders who'd used them in the past and I went and looked critical at their work (after I'd hired them to do mine).. the same issues kept appearing. In the end I guessed that few bulders really knew what to look for in stone work and doing something on time and on budget apparently was more important than the quailty of the actaul work..
I paid them off and did the rest of it myself.. I was faster better and far more careful then they were. Plus I saved myself a fortune!
The point of the story is that everything you need to know about stone work is available from many sources.. read up and take the plunge!
Hello Frenchy,
There is nothing stupid about it, it's called experience and that is what you are sharing with me.
I'm already following your advise by reading up and taking the plunge for the stone building part of it but not for the house building part. During my short un-employment time, I'm splitting and roughing out stones to build a bread oven at my parents place this summer. Got myself a new bosch rotary drill and an old mortar mixer :) It's a small project that should yield some valuable lessons and confidence.
The house building part is more problematic and many of the books don't cover my main concerns like moisture, running conduits or thermal difference between the sides of the wall. Does everything that apply to a concrete wall apply to a stone wall? Will a boxed-in stone wall become a large surface breading ground for molds? Things like that. I'm hoping that with all the trades people present on this site that some will have had some experience with old stone wall houses and have some do's and don'ts advice for me or point me in the right direction. If not, then when the time comes, I'll have to find out on my own.
Buy the way, lots of people have tag lines on these forums and your story has inspired mine. It's something my mother sledge hammered in my mind a long time ago: " On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même" Roughly translated: We are never as well served as if we do it ourselves.
Thanks for your advice and time,
Rehab.
I live in a former 2 room 30' x 60 ' stone school house & i repointed all the exterior stone work
at the front i built a set of stone steps plus a cut stone fireplace in the family room with a chimney coming out the roof of cut stone
out in the yard (3 acres) i built a 30 x 30 cut stone garage with 12/12 pitch roof above
the walls are 10" thick stone all the way to the peaks at both ends
the stone was layed up against osb on 2x4 r12 insul and drywall.
building the structure first allowed me to fully use the building while doing the slow stone work as time permitted
most of the bricklayers around here do not like stone work as it is harder to calculate the costs thats why i got into it as a sideline , you need customers who under stand the time it takes & not be surprised at the reulting costs
i have some books around here on stone const , one was about a house built near wakefield Que if interested i will dg up the titles
Hello Dude,
Thats a lot of stonework but the property must be someting to see. I'm curious. Are you a mason/bricklayer by trade or were these do it yourself projects? Also, how high did you take those 10'' thick walls?
I am interessed in the titles of those construction books you mentionned if you ever run across them.
Thank you for your time and advice
Rehab.
" On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
If you're serious about this stonework deal, get a real splitter. Sounds as if you're playing around trying to split or cut the rocks with toys.
Google "stone splitter." Several choices. All considerably faster than your hand work. Myself, I bought the Block Shear, or rather the 40 ton model called the stone shear.
Stone work is in the details. Take your time with the setting and joints and don't fool with the hard labor that a machine can easily replace.
Just took a look at the stonesplitters (video), great machines! Your right I will probably have to buy one of these machines. They quickly put a nice edge on a block much quicker than doing it by hand.
However, I'm not there yet in my stone splitting experience. I'm still painting by numbers... By "splitting rocks" I meant a rougher kind of splitting. I take big igneous boulders, the kind that need an excavator to be moved, and split them in 12"X12"X18" blocs with wedges. I try do get 5/6 sides roughly squared up and leave on side natural. I could make some very nice corner stones with those blocks and a splitter though.
Like I wrote, I want to build one house for a lifetime and the house should last much longer than that. If I ignore details or do a sloppy job then it is literally set in stone as a testament to my shortcomings.
Thanks for your time and advice
Rehab.
"On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
The romance of the practice gets lost quickly.
Unless you value your time at totally zero, it's much easier to go to the stoneyard and order rocks cut to your size. You'll be surprised what they can do and for how little.
What kind of stone are you dealing with? Picture?
I'll get back to you on the exact name of the stone in the carry. I have to look it up again and find the English translation.
I'll be back.
Rehab.
" On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
I plan on using three sources of rocks.
Veneer: Light brown or gray sandstone from a quarry near Montreal. I've included a pic of a house covered in it.
Exposed rocks: field boulders of igneous or metamorphic origin. They are plentiful around my region. I've spotted some beautiful car size ones that would be yield a fair number of blocs. I have to negotiate an agreement for them.
Filler: Rocks from the quarry. (Butt ugly)
The bedrock in the quarry is an ordovician limestone, dark gray in color with occasional inclusion of injected quartz. That's the short description. I have yet to see how it splits. It is very ugly.
Also, for this project I do value my time at zero.
Thank you for weighing in.
Rehab.
"On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
Edited 1/9/2007 4:55 pm ET by Rehabhog
The type of construction you're describing is more of the established English/Irish method of a double masonary wall with foam slabs sandwiched in between. We have a few guys posting here from time to time from there.
But the few times I've seen them actually building, all three are built up at the same time. And I believe conduits/channels are included. As Cap'n was suggesting, the load paths will need to be properly positioned and tied in with one another across this insulation gap - lintels in some places.
Go back to the timberframe suggestion. That'll get you an incredible home with the features you're looking for. And you can do stone to your hearts content without that much concern towards the engineering.
Didn't think that building a stone house was that much more complicated. After all, the farm houses that inspired me were built mostly by the very people who first lived in them a few centuries ago. I doubt that most of them had any higher level education.
I'll take your advice and that of CapnMac however and look at the alternatives. I still want a stone house but I wont push blindly into something if it becomes apparent that it will be a failure or that it is out of my reach. I still have some time though and a lot more research to do before I give up on the idea.
Thank you for the reality
Rehab.
"On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
Frenchy, you say read up and go for it. Would you put any cavetes with that statement? For example, would you retract that statement depending on the scope of a partular project? Or for a two story fireplace? It would seem to me that the intigrity of the work would become critical at some put and an ameteur might run into problems or a colapsing project.
Don't get me wrong there are dozens of projects which men on this board seem to insist belong in the realm of pros which I have knocked off myself as you suggest here. Most things DIY with patience can do with great effect. Massive stonework gives me pause. Pause with cause is my question to you.
DoRight,
Yes there are cavetes on that statement.. A big one.. be preparred to fail..
Failing isn't the same as failure.. failing simply shows you a way that won't work.. You'r only a failure when you quit trying..
I started small. If you can find a picture of my home you will see that it's a double timberframe. Timbers inside in the American style attached to timbers outside in the European tradition. Those outside timbers basically form 4'x4' squares and I worried that fitting stones into such small spaces would be extremely time consuming. Instead it took me an average of 2 1/2 hours per square..
I massively over built, as is my style, in that each stone had a minimum of two and sometimes 3 or 4 brick ties attaching it to the wall. Now 5 years later from when I first started there isn't a single crack or bit of looseness in anything done..
My forethought on these matters allowed me to do something which no-one has previously done. but had that approach failed I had several back up plans.
Back to my cavete, Failure isn't desired so if you think things through carefull and do a mental assembly before you start looking critically at potential failure points, you are far less likely to overlook something.. This isn't something that should be carelessly breezed thru. first you must have a complete knowledge of the matter at hand, you can't go by one book or even several. you need to see actual practices in real life in order to completely grasp the implications.
You need to also be willing to adapt. For example pros' use these big trowels and everything is done with trowel work.. they make it look so easy..
Trust me, that wrist flick, the way they slide that trowel around is hard, difficult to master. I used a small trowel and put rubber gloves on. Often as not I used my hands and took as much time as I needed.. When tired I went to work on something else..
A big project needs to be broken down into small bite sized pieces. If you are doing a massive stone fireplace for example you need to stop and let the morter dry before proceeding too high, So have someplace else to work.. set a small reasonable goal for yourself each day, say two levels of stone and once finished reward yourself with something else.. one day work inside the next work outside, whatever....
Don't try to be efficent.. select stones for a bit, install them, clean the joints, wash the surface of the stonework off. That way it never gets boring or tiresome, mistakes (which will happen ) can be dealt with if you don't feel under a deadline.
Edited 1/10/2007 10:42 am ET by frenchy
Hi everyone!!
Say me, in US there is such material as spume-concrete, gas-concrete, silicate-concrete, polystyrene-concrete, slag-concrete, and other similar material?
From these material possible to build the building before 3 floors. The Wall of the building from such material do not require winterizing.
Thanks
frenchy, Thank you very much for your kind and well spoken post. Unlike a few others I could mention.
As for your research and research it again advive, and think it through first. I could have written that portion if I were so eloquet. I have done this dozens of times. Typically after some "I'm a pro, your an idiot and CAN'T do it" poster here said I could not do XYZ. Many people loves to think they are a one of a kind and know one can do what they do. OK, I digress.
I once roofed a 12/12 pitched roof, dormers, shed dormers, chimney, several valleys. I laid in bed each night for week and would ask myself, "how will I work up between that dormer and the chimney, will I need to build a new cricket behind the chimney, how will I get the old shakes off, how will I run safety lines, and on and on and on. Then I roofed the house.
I love real stone. I would love to have a real stone fireplace, exposed on all four sides and two stories tall. Probably some 400 sq ft of stone face. I am pretty share I could not afford to hire that out. I think it iwould be doable, but it seems to me the higher you go the more concern you must have for a failure or colapse. And naturally I would have to have soil testing and an engineered footing system for such a massive stonework.
As a side note, You mentioned brick ties. Do brick ties really "tie the stone to the wall" or do they just tie the motar behind the stone to teh wall. (the tie is not actually attached to teh stone, right?)
Do Right,
The tie goes mortor to mortor, or mortor to wall however the mortor holds the stone in place so it in effect holds the stone in place.. Pros use few of them. Us amatures should use more simply to ensure a solid connection.. they are tremendously cheap and if you use screws as I did they are difficult to remove.. nails on the other hand pull out relatively easily..
Now a brick tie has a crinkled surface which makes retention better. If using packaging strapping as I suggested as a cheap alternative to brick ties you could bash the ends over a corragated surface with a rubber hammer to achieve the same. There are other ways of dealing with retention and pull out issues as well.
I don't think that you're going high enough that a well laid stone wall would be at risk, use the biggest broadest stones at the base and slightly taper all the way up..
Pretend when thinking about laying each stone that you couldn't use mortor to hold it, that's how you proceed in stone selection.. Would this stone slide off without mortor, if so don't use it there, either select another stone or position it another way or knock off the offending part..
I like the freedom to move a ston in or out to achieve more stability.. If you look at my wall you'll notice some of the stones stand 3-4 or even more inches proud.. If I wanted fthem all flush I would have started the wall at least 4 inches further out to have room to put a stone in place without having to spend a lot of time breaking some off..
Don't forget the cotton rope at the bottom..
Edited 1/10/2007 2:12 pm ET by frenchy
Cotton rope? Ok, I will bite. Weep hole?
There was an article in FHB a couple of years ago about a stone house that was somehow poured in place and then each wall lifted and then joined together.
That was Tom Elpel's brother - do a google on the name and you'll find his work - Tom Elpel is a slipforming stone builder too.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Thanks for you reply Sasquatch, but I chose not to go with the slipform method eventhough it would be quicker. For me, it doesn't provide that "made a long time ago" feel to it that I'm looking for.
rehab.
"On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
I have my own method of building structural stone, which you might be interested in. I don't know if others use this method, since I have only done the work as a hobby.
I needed a retaining wall that fit in well with the neighborhood. The idea was to make something that looks like it has been in place for a hundred years.
I first excavated and poured a reinforced footing two feet wide. Then I built a limestone wall on the outside edge of the footing. The wall is between four and twelve inches thick, depending on the individual stones. Then I built a form on the other side, reinforced, and poured crete almost all the way up.
The net effect is a very strong concrete wall that is invisible. The limestone portion is primarily cosmetic and very pleasing, according to all the neighbors.
Note that the limestone portion actually serves as the outside form during the pour. The irregular shape of the inside of the wall allows a good bond between the structural and cosmetic portions.
One advantage of this method is that one does not have to do any stone cutting. Each stone face can be placed for optimal appearance and fit. This also allows some serious relief in the joints. I recessed the mortar an average of one to two inches, which turned out well.
I'll look into that one too but I think it would be complementary to the insulated concrete forms.
Thank you for the suggestion.
Rehab.
"On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
Not a mason, but why would you need to drill for wiring or plumbing? You say you would build with "structural framing" (ie wood studs?) and spray foam between it and the stone "veneer". Why would you need any wires or pipes in the veneer when you could run it all in the foam or the wood framing?
I might not have expressed myself correctly; english is my second language. There is no structural framing. Everything is supported by the internal stone wall. Think of it as a sandwich. The outermost layer is a stone veneer and is the final finish on the house. Next to it is a 3" to 4" layer of sprayed polyurethane which is applied on a structural stonewall of between 36" and 12" in thickness. This is the outer shell. From there the inner shell varies from bare stone to full wall panels.
The conduits become a problem if they were unplanned and have to cross that thick structural stonewall. Then I have to drill to make up for my shortsightedness. Also any future modification or additions will probably need some drilling and cutting trough that structural wall to put in conduits or more important openings
I've tried to upload some picts of a protected historic stone house located on prime industrial realestate. Since there was a "mysterious" fire, we can see the structural stone wall. This is what I have in mind except that I want to add some exterior insulation because those historic house are notoriously cold and drafty.
Hope this better explains what I'm trying to do. Thank you for your interest.
Rehab.
"On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
Edited 1/9/2007 1:57 pm ET by Rehabhog
I think you have to decide whether you want all your neighbors to see your built-to-last stone, or YOU want to see it from the comfort of inside your room. If it was me, and I had the time & itch to do a structural stone wall, I'd surely have my insulated envelope INSIDE the wall.
The notion of going to all that work, and then spraying poly on it, and then trying to tie a second veener stone wall to the outside of that seems a bit over the top....
I know that it is against conventional wisdom but here's why I want to insulate from the outside.
- I don't know if I can pull it off esthetically.
- The thick walls will provide some thermal mass if they are insulated
- Less chance of condensation with the associated moisture problems.
I know that your words will resonate in my head if I somehow pull off a beautiful job but it will be to late...
Thanks for your reply.
Rehab.
jrnbj
Rehabhog is actaully correct!
I'm glad to see this forethought in a project.. He clearly understands that there is an inside and outside and there should be a insulation barrier between the two!
If I were building a stone house that is exactly the way I'd do it.. Stone if "found" rather than purchased can be extremely affordable.. Even Lintels and such which are the real Key's to a project like this, can be affordable..
The way the inside wall and outside wall can be tied together is very simple.. it could be rebar projecting thru which the outside wall picks up, It could be a steel structure tying the walls together or just frequent wire connections..
I might make a slight change though simply to more solidly connect the inside and outside walls.. I suspect that I would build the inside wall, with whatever connection method he's going to use and then start on the outside wall leaving about a six inch gap between them.. I'd have the insulators come in and foam say four feet or whatever they can easly reach with their wand. then install another 4 feet (or whatever) foam again etc. keep repeating that process untill you reach the top plate.
That way the foam would actually add to the strength. Not so much for load reasons but for stability reasons..
Correct about what, exactly?....Local materials is all well and good, but I'd still be insulating the inside, not putting a layer of insulation between two fieldstone walls. I just don't see it. If I wanted to see some of my nice stonework INSIDE the house, I's have a nice exposed stone fire-place and flue.
If I were determined to have all stone inside and out, I think I'd do the structural walls out of foam core block, and work from there..,..
jrnbj,
That would work and if like me you aren't inclined to "mine" your stones but rather buy them then that may be the practical way.
Yet if you compare the cost of site sprayed foam versis the cost of ICF's there is a significant potential savings..
The other added benefit would be if your stones weren't all uniform width.. Assuming that you want a smooth face you could simply install the wider ones in a bit further and while there might be a minor differance in that particular spots "R" rating it shouldn't make any significant differance..
i had to share, i know nothing on this subject, but i have memories of seeing it done.
down the street where i grew up was an old man who immigrated from mexico, very old world values, he was constantly working on his house and the wall around it. he was a stone mason in the old world tradition and the stuff that he built looked like it was hundreds of years old. he would get friends to help him gather river rocks and bring them home in the back of the pickup. then they would fit and fit and fit, very little mortar was used, the stones (rocks) would be shaped somewhat (trimmed) and set. even his walls around the property like a fence looked like something you would imagine being on an aztec or inca pyramid! you should have seen the foundation for his house. incredible.
i grew up in summerland california, about 7 miles south of santa barbara, it was all very steep (ala san francisco, where the concrete sidewalks are steps for many hills) and the soil was a very expansive and shifting clay. nothing stood up to that soil and time, everything that was built in that area shifted and moved and leaned. i haven't been back in years but i bet even the engineered structural concrete grade beams with pour in place caisson foundations moved while old Mr Garibay's foundations and walls stand firm.
he had no engineer, no architect, no written blueprint, no formal education. he was a craftsman, and a stonemason who spent a lifetime building his house.
All I can say is "Wow..."
Rehab.
Mr. Rehab, Building, owning and maintaining a stone house in your neighborhood sounds a bit chalanging, even for a master mason. There are countless variables involved. Too many to post here, but these would be my main concerns. #1. The freeze/thaw cycle. The coatings industry giant 'Sto', out of Germany made a fortune in Europe a few decades ago by coming up with a coating to seal water out of stone and brick. The main reason being was that in the old days when energy was cheap people or businesses could afford to heat their uninsulated stone buildings. This kept their stones tempered to some extent and preserved their buildings. Energy prices started to soar people started to insulate the inner walls and as a result the stone work, and other masonries began to spall. Entire cities were almost lost.#2. The costs both hidden and apparant for stone masonry today are staggaring to say the least. #3. For one person to undertake such a challange would be, "Herculean", in the real sense, to say the least. Any way I've been up that way from time to time to visit my mother who lives in the village Huron-Wendake out- side of Que. city. I know of those old majestic houses of stone that always seem to impress and inspire me when I go to visit. I've had extensive training and experiance in masonry. Enough To agree with the poster who mentioned a frame design. Some 2x8 framing with a stone veneer or some thing like that could be nice. However if you insist on building it your way, there is one book I think you may enjoy. It is called "The Good Life", by Paula and Scott Nearing. These folks built a stone house in Vermount close to a century ago, maybe less, and were able .to write a nice account of it. Any way if I'm up that way and i see some guy throwing stone on a big house, I'd like to stop and say hi and maybe throw a couple of stones myself for luck.
Hello Omah,
I've looked up the book and will probably order a copy soon. I've taken into consideration the advice of those who would go with a framing method and add stone veneer. I've download articles on timber framing and ordered information packets on insulated concrete.
But still, stone is what I want. I've studied it (became a mining/geological technician), drilled and blasted it (as a specialized construction worker building roads and housing), and made it look like it had always been there ( working for a landscape artist). It's what I like to work with.
I've taken note of your very valid main concerns. I think there are practical solutions to be found if I look hard enough but I don't think I will start until they are addressed. Long days of hard labor is my way of life but still I'm no Hercules. I'll take that into consideration too...
Should I finally start to build, you would be welcomed to stop and see for sure. Look for the guy with the big smile.
Rehab.
my home has 36" walls which basically consists of a outer and a inner wall with rubble in between
i tore out all the walls to the stone interior and framed inner walls then insulated these with fiberglass out tight to the stone so as to leave no space for drafts
the walls are limestone which can be cut with a rock chisel and a 2# hammer
on my garage i took the walls to the peak about 20'
as for using stone allow about 1/3 extra so you can sort out the good looking pieces from the ugly ones
in terms of masonary i am probaly a proffesional in that i get paid to brick the od custom home now and again plus do stone work on warious jobs if i agree to do the work
as far as getting a hole into a existing stone wall 36" i use a Kango drill and take out a exterior rock in the proposed location , usually a stone about 8-10" thick x what ever long the hammer my way to the interior using the Kango
this gives you a rather large hole but you simply fill it back in with the removd stones cut to size and shape
done this many a time and foud it easier to make a large hole and fill it in than trying to keep hole small as pipe to be installed
when you do stone you cant think like a bricklayer one of the reasons few bricklayers work in building solid stone walls in this area at least
I also do custom masonry gigs-I say gigs because of the time involved
the old man I learned masonry from use to say "people don't understand
you dont hire a stone mason, you adopt him" . Ive kept my .02 to myself
on this one,as I dont know how many hoops rehab is going to have to
jump though to get his drafts signed off on. I have quit fighting the building
inspectors,local goverment ect. to let me build a all stone anything, to think
that most places have regulated such a noble medium as stone to veneer
purposes only is a testament to our throw away society,well anyway rehab
my hats off to ya there ole hoss, good luck and happy laying.
Hi everyone!!!
I from Russia.
I want to live and work in US.
I have some questions. Help me please to find the answers to them.
1. Can I build the house on my project?
2. Can foreigner to buy the land and build the house?
3. Where possible hear the price on the main building materials such as: concrete, cement, brick, boards, foundation blocks, plates of the overlapping and other building materials?
Thanks.
1. Can I build the house on my project?
Typically, yes. The specific "where" can make a difference. In places where earthquakes happen, they can be picky about things like foundations. Where tropical storms occur, wind conditions can be a focus of local municipal attention.
2. Can foreigner to buy the land and build the house?
Generally, yes. I'm not aware of any enforceable sale covenants other than being a legal alien resident for property sale (but, I could be wrong). The 'money' tends to be the 'thing' not the nationality.
3. Where possible hear the price on the main building materials such as: concrete, cement, brick, boards, foundation blocks, plates of the overlapping and other building materials?
Ah, well, that is a much larger question, and even more specific to location and time asked. The price of portland cement (used in a number of products) seems mostly stable; as does the price of steel products. Where petroleum-using products are going to go is anyone's guess.
So, I'm curious; from where in Russia to where in the U.S.?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Hi CapnMac!!!
Thanks.
But want little more information on that, where possible gain such material, and how much approximately they cost(stand).
I presently live in Russia (the Siberia) Omsk city. Not big city - approximately 1 300 000 - 1 400 000 inhabitants.
Where I want to live in US until it was defined. Can where will offer get prettier work. I am a specialist ventilated facade.
Omsk city. Not big city - approximately 1 300 000 - 1 400 000 inhabitants
Oh my, Omsk is a long way east, isn't it?
However, that is a much bigger city than I live in; mine is but 60,000; my whole county only has 175 000 permanent residents (and 40 000 transient college students).
At 1.3 to 1.4 million, Omsk is about the same size as Austin, Texas.
From your other post, I am guessing you are asking about what we (generally) call "entrained" or "admixtured" concrete (literally things "added" to the concrete "mixture" or encapsulated in the mix). Such things are done, but to varying degrees based on need, climate, budget, etc. Such things are failry rare in single-family residential construction, and generally rare in "lighter" multi-family construction.
However, I'm back to the problem of generalizing on construction methods and costs, as they vary so much within just a 200-300KM distance of me.
There are huge differences in single-family home construction method and materials just between states--the east coast is different than the central plains is different than in the mountains to out west or the like.
By the way, are you translating this site back to Russian and vice versa, or working your way through our convoluted jargon and idiom? (I am trying to not use idiom or contractions in either case)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
All points have been noted. Thank you.
Rehab.
Rehabhog,
Your ideas have a lot of merit.. I like that you are going to insulate the interior wall from the exterior wall with foam but might I suggest that you stack or build the interior wall, and then start on the exterior wall leaving a space between for foam then when the exterior wall is about 4 feet high (or whatever they can get their wand in to spray) you have them spray that much.. Now go up another 4 feet (or whatever) and respray..
The idea is two fold..
First it will make doing the walls easier.. If a stone is slightly too thick it projects in a little and maybe you can make that exterior stone in that area a little thinner to compensate. (you won't see a dramatic increase in heating costs if a few spots have 4 inches of foam rather than your goal of say 6 inches)
Second it will dramatically increase the wall stability since the foam will conform to the inside of both walls rather than just one..
Second your concern about wire chases and such is legitimate, may I offer you the idea of doing the inside of some rooms in something other than stone work? The contrast will add to the drama and enhance the appearance of the stone rather than detract from it while offering you alternative methods of access.
Perhaps you are thinking of methods of mortor joints rather than using actaul concrete as a morter? (concrete has large stones in it)
Let me try to explain.. Older morter used far more lime in it and less or no portland cement which gave the mortor a softness not seen in modern mortors.. I've read countless debates on the subject and in the end decided for my own home to use regular mortor mix right out of the bag.
What finally convinced me was taking an old softer brick that had been put up with typical mortor mix and being able to cleanly knock the still solid mortor joint off. Older mortors seem to have this softness to them which leads to the need for frequent tuck pointing . If you attempt to remove the older morter it never seems to come off cleanly but still it quickly seems to need to be retuck pointed..
I can argue both sides of the street but the durability of the modern mortor mix convinced me as compared to the rather frequent tuck pointing used in older work.
What I would do if I were doing a double wall as you are is look for a source of steel banding. You know the stuff they use to strap around crates and boxes. Should be able to get lots of it free. Lumberyards, truck terminals etc.. . Stick it in the inside wall and leave it plenty long, that way you can trim to needed length. It might be a bit too weak by itself but when encased in foam it should afford you all the stability you'll need..
Since it should be free, use a lot of it have the wall look like a real porcupine.. use the old expression, if somes good, mores better, and too much is just starting to be fun...
Go day,
I can see the strong points of your suggestion spraying each lift or two, I'm just a bit worried about it's integrity between it's raising and the time the foam has expanded and cured.
From what I've read so far, I heading towards a soft mortar. Sand, lime and cement. I've always taught that in stone walls, the mortar was a filler not a binder. Gravity is what holds everything in place. I've found a few books on mortar that I will buy has my budjet allows.
The steel banding idea is a good one but I'd feel safer using it has a extra mesure to supplement more conventionnal methods. I also like the re-bar idea someone suggested.
Engineers can get away with putting in a hair over just enough, I plan on getting away with it too by being just shy of way too much. A construction company had the same idea by putting in rail road tracks in a pair of huge chimneys they built. Come demolition time, the chimneys had to be blasted five times. What a show...
I have a hard time getting rid of what I acquire, in a packrat kind of way, so I tend to buy the best I can if it's not an urgent need.
Rehab.
"On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
Rehabhog,
One additional comment,
Buy tools, good ones.. when pricing them ignore their selling price, calculate their true cost on selling price less what you can sell them for second hand..
I have a lot of timberframing tools that way, Any good chain morticer will easily sell for $800.00 on the used market so it's $1200.00 purchase price means that it will actually cost me $400.00 in "rent" If I could have found a good used one at the time It's real cost might have been zero!
If you buy a good second hand one. (And I shout the good part) your cost for owning it could be near zero.. Not any old tool should be acceptable.. you don't want to spend more time fixing the tools than you do building your house.. Something a company in the trade uses will most likely be worn out by the time it's offered for sale.. Whereas something from a company which went out of business or better still a do-it-yourselfer may have been used very little before being sold..
Don't have time to read through the thread right now, I'll be back later. You should look through this thread, for inspiration if nothing else:
68148.1
If it were me, I would consider either buying precast Thermass panels and building a second wall on the outside of stone (search archives for thermass), or doing something similar with ICFs. It is desirable to have high mass inside of your insulation, but of course stone needs to be on the outside. In any case, you'll want some insulation, unless you live in a climate where ambient temps are above room temperature every day.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Hello Zak,
First off, spectacular sunset in the mountains... What a thread. I don't know how I missed that one in the archives. I'll be looking at it more closely tomorrow.
Surprised me how they used woodworking tools with diamond blades and no water, especially the router. This opens up all new possibilities.
Great looking job by the way. Have fun.
Rehab.
" On est jamais mieux servit que par soi-même"
Yeah, the router bit is great. I've never done work like that (what Don has done), but I'd like to some day, I've only worked with harder stones, andesite and granite.
In my opinion, stonemasonry isn't terribly difficult work, but some people have what it takes, and others don't. 3-D reasoning, a strong back, and enthusiasm for the work is about all you need. Good luck, I'll follow the thread and answer specifics on stone building if you've got more questions.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
To Zak and All,
This thread is very informative and eye opening. I would like to sincerely thank all those that share their knowledge and experience. There is a lot to chew on and digest. This will help me better define my project.
With all these ideas and tips coming in, I've got a major itch to do some small scale experimenting (located some diamond router bits...). I'm looking forward to being able to share if something worthwhile comes out of it. So here it starts.
Again, Thanks to all.
Rehab.
a couple of books are"building with stone" by Charles Mc Raven Lippincott & Crowell, publishers New York
The Stone Builders Primer by Charles K . Long
Thank you Dude for looking them up.
Ironicly I had lent two books to my uncle some years back that I didn't remember the title. I got them back tonight. It's those two. Sorry for making you search.
Rehab.
Hello Zak,
Made some rockchips today with emphasis on trying to cut square blocs out of a round stone. With those big blocs I tried a hammer that was given to me and I think is relatively old. It's looks like trim hammer but I wasn't able to do a thing with it.
Do you have any idea what's it used for?
Thanks
Rehab.
"On est jamais mieux servit que pas soi-même."
The small hammer is one we would use for bricks or light work on rock. The bigger hammer should be OK for shaping rock, which is a lot easier once you recognise the grain and where and how hard to hit.
Try 'the art of splitting stone' by Mary and James Gage (published by Powwow River Books, Amesbury, MA) for advice on how to split rock, or take a trip to Maine - they really know how to split granite in that state. Where in the US are you?
Hello Drystone. <!----><!----><!---->
Thank you for the book suggestion, amazon had it cheap so I bought it. I'm use to the small hammer, it's my favorite all purpose tool, I use it everyday at work. We do a fair amount of soil sampling in a day. <!----><!---->
The big hammer I'm more of a cluts with. I'm o.k. with reading the grain. I learned the basics of rock / mineral formations during a 3 year program in mining/geology. Even if I remembered all that l have forgotten I would still have a lot to learn though. You seem to think that I'm using it for the right purpose so I most be using it in a wrong way.Some grinding maybe? I'll check the book. To know how fractures and diaclases will form in a stone is one thing; making them happen is another. <!----><!---->
I'm from <!----><!---->Canada<!----> by the way but I live about 10 minutes from <!----><!---->Vermont<!----><!---->. <!----><!---->
Thank you for the information<!----><!---->
Rehab. <!----><!---->
Rehab , where did you find diamond router bits?
I have used carbide bits on relativly soft limestone .
My thoughts on your wall . ICF center ,extra foam panels on the outside added after the pour, then your stone veneer. I filled in any voids behind my stone with mortar as I went along ,left no air gaps between the foam and stone. I had galvenizedsteel tys every 16" horazontaly, I used durawall reenforcing as my tys .I fastend one wire to the wall and mortared the other into the rock work . I left a 3/4" gap for my brickwork.
Inside I would take the foam off the ICF if it was easy to remove . Some forms have readily removable panels , most are foamed around the tys. then lay up the stone interior where it is to be stone . But I would get the roof on first . It is nice to have a place to work out of the weather on nasty days. The ICF makes for a relativly draft free building and a very strong core for masonry.
Donpapenburg,
Check out Granite cities website. http://www.granitecitytool.com/showitem.cfm?itemnum=574&catnum=0&pcatnum=80
There's pretty much everything there.
I'm waiting for an info package from various manufacturer of ICF to see if I like this alternative.
Good day
Rehab.
Thanks , I got that bookmarked now.
you didn't post a picture of the hammer faces- but anyway, it doesn't seem to be one I'm familiar with. You'll want to get a few masonry chisels, rotohammer and a few sets of wedges and feathers, and a 7" grinder with a diamond wheel. That would be my bare bones set up for shaping rock to stack it.
You can control breaks by scoring lines with the grinder and chiseling evenly and patiently along the line. If it still won't break where you want it to, drill through the stone several times in a line, insert the wedges and feathers, and drive them in evenly. If that doesn't work, get a new rock.
Rock selection is critical. There is definitely good rock and bad rock for a given style of laying. I avoid totally rounded rocks, but I'll break off one rounded side if I can use the rest of the stone as is.
Building with stone isn't about speed, so don't rush it. You'll hurt yourself if you do, and it won't come out as well.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Hi Zak,
Thank you for responding. I was just curious about the hammer and taught I try it out. It will go back to gently persuade stubborn objects if the books that were suggested don't reveal it's secret ways. I've got the Trow and Holden catalog and will probably get a few carbide tip hammers. I'll have to regrinde ma masonry hammer after today's work.
I've got the rotary drill with the wedges and feathers ( they must be like clamps, never enough). I'm waiting for some info back to decide between hand or pneumatic chisels. So I guess I'm off to a good start.
I'd like your opinion however on changing that grinder for a wormdrive circular saw. I was shopping for one today. The one in the thread you recommended got me thinking.
Thanks rehab.
I used a milwaukee 7 1/4" circular saw with a dry cut diamond blade for cutting my rock . It would have been nice to have a 20" or larger blade some times.
I had a 14" cut off saw with a diamond blade when I was doing my stonework. It was very nice to have, but I found myself using it less and less as I got better at splitting with hand tools.
I much prefer a 7" grinder to a wormdrive. Makes it easier to do corners and angles and stuff, and it's just what I learned to use. They seem tougher, too. But I think it comes down to what you feel comfortable with- I feel safer with a grinder- I'm not having to fool with the blade guard, and I can see what I'm doing just enough.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I used a stilh 14'' quite a lot one summer to cut curves in pavement. I liked it but it doesn't have something that you can reference against.
If you would have said go for the wormdrive I would have eliminated the grinder because it's a tool I'm much less familiar with but now I'll give it a try. Since grinders and circulars saws have a lot of other applications I'll try and acquire both (used) and see what I feel safer/ comfortable with.
Thanks, Rehab.
Rehabhog
I honestly don't know how I figured out how to fracture stone about where I wanted it to break, I sure didn't figure it out from the books I read.
Maybe the trick was to accept whatever I made and try to make improvements each time I did it. I was prefectly willing to set aside a stone that broke too small for the position I wanted it because somehow I'd figure out how to use it later..
It seemed relatively easy to knock off a projection on the stone unless it was smack in the center of the stone.. then no matter what I did the piece never turned out as I'd like it..
I guess what I'm saying is have a lot of spots where you can place alternative shape stone and keep trying to makethe critical pieces untill you succeed..
I have come into this discussion rather late, but you may be interested in http://www.pierreseche.com . The site is French but will act as an introduction to drystone work in the Mediterranean area of Europe. They can build some fairly hefty structures, with no mortar.
The basis of drystone work is that each rock has structural integrity because it is properly bedded, both in itself and in relation to the rocks around it. After you have learned the basis of drystone construction it is fairly straightforward to move on to mortared work. The mortar acts as a seal between the stones and helps bind it together but the structural strength of the building is dependant on stone to stone contact. Castles and multi story buildings can be built with stone and lime mortars.
My understanding is that the pyramids, at least the central core, were build drystone with only a little mortar to let the stones slip into place and seal the joint. Accurate cutting and proper placement was the key.
Most of the old cottages here in Scotland are built with stone and lime mortars. Some of the walls may be two or three feet thick. Building by this method is too expensive nowadays so the stonework is often limited to a stone veneer on to a concrete block wall. For some fine examples of this type of veneer go to http://www.denfindstone.co.uk .
http://www.scotlime.org or http://www.virginialimeworks.com may be of interest too.
Hello Drystone,
I've taken a quick look at the websites. The Chalestown workshops look very interesting. Thank you, very informative.
Rehab.
"On est jamais mieux servit que par soit-même"
Thinking a little more about your project and was wondering if you had considered thicker walls [ 24"]. That will give you more room to set an exterior and interior wall, then pour a mix of pumice crete in the void instead of rubble fill or foam? I have my reasons why this could work if your interested at all.
Good day Omah,
Actually 24'' is well within what I was considering (36" to 18" from the ground up). Overbuilding for safety.
I would be very much interested in what you have to suggest.
Thank you,
Rehab.
The stone walls in Medieval times were solid with tapestries and curtains on the inside to cut the chill. This was refined to an inner lining of plaster and lath with a space between the lath and the stone to let the stone breath and stop damp from accumulating. The use of lime mortars aids the dispersal of moisture.
An insulating material sandwiched between two layers is OK for brick but I think it compromises the strength of a stone wall.
Stone walls should NEVER be painted with anything other than limewash to protect them from the weather. There is no such thing as a breathable paint.
Cody Macfie has a video presentation on veneering on one of the Taunton sites. His recent book - 'Getting started with mortared stonework' might be worth a look.
Has anyone seen how veneer work is affected by earth tremors?
Although I'm not a stone mason by trade, I make my living by manufacturing eclectic styles of high end furiture to an eccentric clientle in Santa Fe New Mexico. However, I do have an extensive backround in several of the Building venues.In the late 70's I have studied with Hassan Fathy in Egypt Learning to build walls, domes, arches, pendantives, squinches and barrel vaults and groined vaults w/o centering. Although it was all in adobe brick most of the techniqes are suprisingly similar. In the early 70's in the Fla. Keys, I learned to build with concrete; houses, sea walls, cantilevered docks, and roof tops. Also pumice block, coral rock, and frame. Also plumbing. In the late 60's in California, I worked with a high production framing crew and also did landscaping and ornamental stone walls. In the early 80's,I supered the construction of one of the largest adobe single builings in North America, the D.A.I. mosque and school located in Abiquiu N.M. It has 24" walls. domes, vaults, and arches. Also a foam roof. Also at that time, actually mid 80's, I built several pumicecrete houses. In the late 80's I worked with a crew from Chihuahua, Mexico Building a 4500 sqft stone house on a hillside. All moss rock, cement joints on the outside and dryfit tight seams on the inside. Any way I'm just saying this to assure you that I'm not a stranger to traditional building techniques, appropiate technology, and hybrid construction, when it is appropriate and when it's not. As soon as I learn how to sketch and send it to you I'll show you an idea that I have of a hybrid pumice-crete/stone wall design that I think may be adequate for your application. I'm still working on the rate of temperature transference of stone and pumice. To catch my drift you have to understand that adobe for example will transfer heat as measured in degrees at the rate of 1" per hour. Now you will have a situation where there are two different temperatures,outside and inside, traveling in two directions at the same time at the rate of 1" per hour. So in a 24hr. period you have a complete cycle with a 24" wall. So now we're talking stone, faster rate of heat transference, till it hits the pumice-crete, slower than stone or adobe, maybe 1/2 that of adobe. Then it speeds up again. My intuitive feeling is that you will end up with an insulated house with significant flywheel properties and be able to temper your ext. walls at the same time. Anyway if you think that this is a stupid idea please let me know and I won't waste any more time and space here. I'm sure there are more qualified people than I who can assist you.
Hello,
No, I don't think it's stupid, quite the contrary. Some of these pyroclastics stone have a very high porosity just like foam... one source states the thermal conductivity of it at 0.43. There also an industrial mineral which means that it can probably be bought and shipped easily. This idea is definitely worth exploring and I'm very interested in what you have to say.
Rehab.
i have been a mason all my life. My father before me. Could you post some photos of what you have in mind? What kind of stone? Your layout?
Cam
Strange thing about this threat is that, when I started it, I thought I knew exactly what I wanted and pretty much how it was going to be built. I had area's of concerns but they were details in my mind.
Now I'm looking at it in a new way and seriously considering all the other options that I was unaware or uninformed about. The response from the forum has been great and there is a lot of information to digest.
This said, here's the original idea in a nut shell. French style stone house. Structural stone walls made of either field boulders or quarried local limestone (Ugly) . Exterior insulated with sprayed polyurethane. Stone veneer to cover polyurethane. The veneer is sandstone from a near local supplier.
I don't have any digital layout sketches anymore but it's basically a square box, much like " French style 1" but smaller, with additions/ chimney that act as disguised buttresses. Building in a box like manner should simplify construction.
I'm sorry that I couldn't better answer your question with a digital layout but I'm still working on that.
Rehab.
thank for the photos. this will be quite a project. How will you install your windows, door frames, ect. Will you have a rough buck where you want a window and lay stone all around the buck? Sorry I have so many questions.
Hello Concretekid,
things are progressively taken shape since my last post. For openings, a solid wood frame will temporarily hold the stones in place while the mortar hydrates. The majority of the load above the opening will be redistributed by a hidden arche and a steel lintel will support the rest for square openings. Window and door frames will then be shimmed into these rough openings and weatherized like a conventional structure. I'm still looking into the weatherizing details ( flashing for ex.) That's how I understand it so far
I'm still reading and searching but if I can manage to do some good looking stone masonry on some trial projects, the walls will be like this made like a sandwich:
12" to 18" of mortared random rubble stone.
6" of slow rising polyurethane foam with rebar and steel mesh reinforcement linking it to the halves of the stonewall. It should afford an R factor of around 40.
12" to 18" of mortared random rubble stone.
This isn't one of my ideas but advice from different posters and websites. So far it's the one I like the most. Also, I still have to do some real research on the actual thickness of the walls and consequent footing.
Thanks for your interest.
Rehab.
I wish the best for you and would like to see some phots sometime. I just got done with a fireplace for my brother-in-law. He is a farmer here in Iowa. He farms about 10,ooo acers. I layed the fireplace with the stone out of the feilds. If he was'nt such a nice guy, I would not have done it. I'll post some pictures soon.
Cam Hatch
concretekid, are you in the profession? Please post the pictures.