I have a 14 y.o. house in Atlanta with a “hard-coat” stucco finish. The house was not built especially well and I have spent the last 2 years repairing the work of the blind in one eye finished carpenter who trimmed out the interior. It’s now time to work on the exterior of the house. The exterior walls consist of wood studs with a 1/2″ white polystyrene foam board with the stucco applied over the foam board with wire lath and galvanized nails. There is no indication of building felt or other barrier under the stucco. I’ve alread had to rebuild the several corners of the house (from the inside out) due to water damage that was attributed to a poor roofing job (no roofing felt, shallow slopes, and too small gutters.) The house is grey in color with white accents. Here are my questions:
1. The western exposure has faded considerably and has lightly brown spots and streaks which I assume to be water getting into the stucco and causing the galvanized nails to rust. I cannot tell if the stucco has been painted. I was considering having the house painted but based on discussions in this forum I am having second thoughts. The roofing contractor that fixed the roof recommended a high quality elastomeric paint. If I were to have a new color coat put on I think I would still have the brown spot problem since the water will still be getting into the stucco. Any recommendations?
2. The southern exposure, which sees a lot of moisture every time it rains has a problem around every window. The windows are double hung units and a couple of palladin types. The double hung units are metal clad. The problem is at the sill. Every window has evidence of rot/repair where the vertical stile dies into the sill. The rails of palladin at the sill are also rotting. On one window, the bottom rail of the window is rotting under the metal cladding. The trim around all windows consists of standard brick mold that was used as a stop for the stucco. Around some windows, the vertical brickmold has started to rot. The north side of the house was trimmed identical to the south side but exhibits none of the above problems. I suspect that the problem is due to the water and sun exposure of the south side. What I don’t understand is why the vertical sections are rotting whereas the sills seem to be in good shape. Any insight on what is causing this problem and how to fix it?
3. I want to cut in a new window and exterior door. I need recommendations on how to accomplish.
I’m a handy DIY kind of guy but I don’t have deep pockets so I am looking for solutions that I can implement or that won’t cost me an arm and a leg. (I already lost an arm and a leg on the roofing job). Thanks
BDuane
Replies
Before you get too much further, be aware that this sort of stucco construction has resulted in A LOT of moisture problems, many leading to serious (as in tear down the house) mold problems.
Likely many of your "rain" problems are really due to trapped moisture, often coming from inside the house.
Be sure to carefully research this and do appropriate remediation before you button things up. (Hopefully some other folks here with first-hand experience can point you at some resources.)
Given the foam in there, is this really stucco or is it EIFS? I used to know what those letters stand for, but now I can only remember the other version, Experimental Inadequate Fake Stucco. ;-)
-- J.S.
I agree that it's not stucco, the real cement-based stucco. It's a version of EIFS although I'm surprised that they used metal lath ... most of the fake stucco down here (and there's lots of it) use a fiberglass cloth.
I think it stands for exterior insulated finish system.
Cutting in a door or window would be esay ... sort of. That stuff cuts very easily with a carbide jigsaw or circular saw blade, or a side grinder. The problem will be getting the flashing correct for the door.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Sounds like you have EIFS. In a wet, humid climate like Atlanta, the moisture trapped under the foam boards will eventually rot the sheathing and studs. Since there is no practical way to keep the moisture out, the only real solution is to rip all of the crap off and put up another exterior finish. You probably didn't want to hear that, but that's the reality. Stucco was never intended to be installed over wood, and IMO the contractors who did this work on tens of thousands of houses should be in jail.
I work for a preservation company, and most of our work uses stucco, we use a LIME based product known as Keim Farben, or Universal Render.Portland cement is awful stuff, stay away from it at all costs. Lime based products allow for the transfer of moisture. If you paint over stucco with a simple latex, you get moisture issues, look for a silicat, like Hansa or a Keim paint product.
termites love it too, a direct tunnel to the attic
Clearly the 'stucco' is porous and causing moisture problems. This material was not intended for wet climates. Acrylic stucco, on the other hand, is waterproof and reasonably flexible. Sounds like you have serious problems with existing wood windows - framing won't be far behind. You need to decide whether to think long term or short term. Long term, you will accept that the structure is seriously compromised and replace the current siding with a foam-acrylic system. Better r value, waterproof, easily paintable. Short term, you'll repair/replace trouble spots as they appear and turn the house into a long term project.
If you decide to go short term, then you will be cutting the new window and door into the exisiting 'stucco', which is an issue since stucco patching is never an easy thing to get right. Some door mfgs offer 'renovator' models with generous brickmold surround. You specify exact rough opening size and they supply a unit that just fits in the opening, with the trim either overlaying the exterior siding, or you trim the siding back just enough and caulk the gap. Some HOs I've worked with like to add a decorative wood trim to cover the removed stucco. I put new air barrier and insulating foam behind the trim. Galv. finish nails hold well in stucco if you make a pilot hole with a small masonry bit.
Wally
FYI - I am an EDI certified third party inspector (Exterior Design Institute - stucco inspector) in Atlanta.
You have an EIFS system which is Polymer Modified (PM) or a one coat stucco. It is portland cement with an acrylic polymer additive and is probably around 3/8" - 1/2" thick. It is commonly mistaken for "Hardcoat Stucco". It is designed as a drainage system as opposed to the polymer based (PB) EIFS which was a water barrier system which encountered many problems and class action law suits.
The problem with the door and window rot is incorrect application of the EIFS. It should never be butted or terminated into a wood door or window - the doors and windows move and the stucco doesn't resulting in cracks at the interface and consequent water entry into the doors, windows and walls. The stucco should be terminated at an accessory strip leaving a 1/2" gap between the stucco and the door or window - backer rod is installed in the gap and it is then caulked with Dow 795 or the equivalent. This prevents the cracking and water entry.
The stucco should be terminated 8" above the soil at a starter strip or weep screed. The stucco can extend beneath the soil only if there is no foam behind it (over masonry).
You are correct, the brown streaks are algae resulting from water entry.
Ok John, so the bottom line is ... he has a big problem that can't be corrected with a fresh coat of paint, and replacing the rotted wood with new, without any other modification, is a waste of time.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Sad but true - the repairs are expensive if done correctly.
I second scooleens opinion of Portland, but what's "Keim Farben"....
True EIFS is a two coat system (Dryvit & Sto are the brand names I know of)...first layer is latex modified Portland scratch (sort of) coat over foam board reinforced at corners & openings with fiberglass mesh....second coat is propritary ?...comes in different textures & custom colors...
I did an addition way back when on a pebble dash stucco house...we used Dryvit with a medium texture & it looked pretty good next to the rest of the original pebble dash...
later on at the same house we renovated a bathroom, involved closing off half a double hung window in the original pebble dash....we butchered the patch, probably because we used a Portland mortar, not lime. The original stucco had marble sized stones barely sunk into the base coat but still stuck on like white on rice. Never could find out how they stuck all that rock on the base coat....saw a Mexican crews' pebble dash job a few years later, after it was on the wall...tried to get them to tell me the secret but it was late in the day & they didn't speak much 'merican..still don't know how it was done in the old days..sigh.
After the bathroom job we did a screened porch for the same HO. with 4X4 #1 PT posts, infilled & sheathed with Durock below the screen openings. I was working with a different G.C.then & he decided to sub out the Dryvit topcoat on the Durock...the funny part was the Dryvit sub insisted on putting the fiberblass mesh & portland coat on top of the Durock (which after all is....fiberglass mesh and Portland....)-go figgur.....
I don't know about Termites, but big black ants love the foam board...
Where I was back then-the D.C. metro area- we didn't have the rot and water issues that cropped up down south...I recall Dryvit & Sto got banned-at least for residential use, you couldn't do most of the new big box work without the stuff-in at least a few southern states
IMHO it's all about good flashing & roof overhangs...do those & you don't have problems with EIFS--or much else, for that matter"oh no, Mr Bill, architects have been here..."
A friend in the Philly area is having his entire stucco exterior removed and replaced. 2-1/2 story, 4000 sq ft, suburban McMansion type house. There is obvious water damage on the interior surfaces in the 2 story front entrance area. His quote from a sub that came highly recommended is around $100K. Lawsuit on the original finish is in the works. I was curious as to why he was going with stucco on the redo rather than using a different type exterior. Is stucco in general susceptible to this type of damage, or was this just a poor installation job by the contractor, who is also being sued by pretty much everyone in the neighborhood? If one tore off all the stucco, would it be impossible to replace it with another surface such as brick? Would there be issues with the support base and wall thickness problems at areas like the window and door casements? More curious about the possibilities than in giving advice to said friend.
Odds are 10 to 1 that the moisture problems are the result of faulty installation of the stucco.
Strange that only the residential builders (for the most part) have problems with EIFS - reason is that the commercial guys have more controls in place (architects, engineers, inspectors, etc.) to ensure the materials are properly applied.
Other siding materials can certainly be used - with brick the only issue is the lack of a foundation designed to accept the brick. Probably have to bolt angle iron to the foundation to hold the brick. Cement fiberboard would be an easy alternative.
If it were mine, I would go back with a rain screed system to drain the walls, properly flash the windows and doors, install kick out flashing where needed, use Durock sheathing and one coat stucco (actually 2 coats about 1/2" thick total).
In northern climes, the stucco is a problem because it acts like a vapor barrier, trapping internal moisture in the walls in the winter. Not a problem with commercial since they tend to have leakier construction and lower internal humidity, and since they often use steel framing against the stucco.
John: Thanks for the info on what I have. I am curious though, can I paint this stuff or not? Also, I looked around the house closely this weekend and what I noticed between the front and back of the house is that the front has built up areas around all of the windows where the brick molds are rotting. Presumably, the built up areas are additional foam with fiberglass reinforcing.
I have torn up several of the interior walls to know that my original problem was due to the roof. Whan the roof was replaced I needed 21 full sheets of decking replaced. The amount of damage and the amount of water that entered could not have possibly come from the window areas. In fact, I personally witnessed water dripping in the attic during a rainstorm. I also pulled up several pieces of insulation in the attic and the top plates in the attic several feet from the exterior walls were wet. Since the roof was replaced I have not had these problems.
I do have a problem around the windows but it seems to be only the brick mold around the metal clad windows. The rails and stiles of the palladin units are also deteriorating. The sills seem fine. Is it possible to fix this mess by cutting back the existing finish 1/2" from the brick molds, replacing the brick molds with PVC material and installing backer rod and sealant as you stated?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Brian
Yes, you can paint the stucco.
You are correct - the trim on the windows is 3/4 EPS foam with mesh and thin stucco finish. The top of this synthetic trim should be sloped 6:12 to allow water to drain - in your case I would bet the top is flat (probably the sills also), which allows water to accumulate and penetrate.
A lot of the wood rot you are experiencing is most likely from the roof leaks as well as water entry at the windows due to improper installation. You can cut the stucco back and install the correct movement joint. You can route the gap in the stucco and install 1/2" backer rod and caulk with Dow 795 caulk. Make sure to tool a concave surface on the caulk. The backer rod prevents three side adhesion of the caulk and allows it to stretch and contract properly.
Couple of good articles on JLC you should read.
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/41c80c6e000e147127177f000001057a/Product/View/0111succ
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/41c80ec50022808327177f00000105c6/Product/View/9809inst
John: Thanks for the reference articles and responding so quickly. After reading the articles I am really concerned and a little bit confused. From the description it sounds as if I have the barrier type EIFS. From my inspections I know for a fact that there is no felt paper behind the foam board. I currently have an outside corner of the garage area opened up on the inside from floor to ceiling. Apart from some minor insect damage to one stud (the insects are gone and appear to have been gone for awhile) there is no evidence of water intrusion - no staining etc. Curiously enough, there is no plywood sheathing at the corner to form a shear wall. What there is, is a diagonal 1x4 that has been let into the inside face of the studs.
Except for one window, I have not opened up the wall under the windows with the rot to see if I have an problem. The window that I did open up was associated with the roof water problem. When I cut the sheetrock, a 4 foot section of wall came out with studs and insulation still attached to the sheetrock. The studs had rotted along the outside face and at the top and bottom. That corner of the house was basically being supported by the diaphragm action of the floors and the intersecting walls. I rebuilt that section of the house from the basement sill plate up to 18 inches above the second floor. I had to put in a new rim joist at the first and second floors, sister the floor joists at both floors, install new floor plates at the first and second floor levels, new studs, and new floor decking. The king post at the window was partially rotted at the floor plate and was replaced and sistered. I am pretty certain I cut out all of the demaged wood in these areas.
This house was sold to me as "hard coat" stucco, not "synthetic stucco". Sounds to me as if I was misled (lied to??).
If I decide to paint this mess, what type of paint is recommended? regular latex or some type of elastomeric coating?
I am pretty sure that the wood damage that I am seeing around the windows is due to water being trapped in these areas. If I replace the brick molds with PVC material aren't I ignoring the problem and ultimately causing myself additional problems down the road? I question what is happening to the wood under the metal cladding in the windows.
Since you are in the Atlanta area, do you do inspections and if so what would it cost me? The house is in east Cobb just north of the perimeter. (Although, I am not sure I want to hear the answer.)
Brian
A diagonal 1 X 4 let in to the studs is acceptable bracing in this area - before plywood and OSB this technique was always used.
Most realtors (probably "all realtors") don't know the difference between hardcoat and synthetic. In reality, with some of the EFIS products, it is difficult to quickly determine the difference unless one has considerable experience with these products. The barrier or PB type is generally the easiest to ID.
Have to determine the type of stucco you have before recommending a paint.
PVC trim is a good idea once the water problems are resolved. Simply replacing the rotted wood trim is just treating the symptom and not fixing the problem as you imply - greater problems will ultimately result.
I am in the inspection business. A stucco inspection will cost from $315 to $550 depending on the number of sides of stucco, size of the house and age of the house. Feel free to call my company - the office staff can give you a quote and answer your questions - leave your phone number and ask to have me contact you -
John McDaniel
Residential Inspectors 770-476-4963 (press one after the phone is answered)