Adding on to existing house, about 200 sq. ft. addition, single story. I am not a contractor so bare with me. Regarding stud crowning and bowing, from other websites a stud’s crown is how it bends as you look down the 3.5″ side along the 8′ length. The stud bow, is seen by looking down the 1.5″ side along the 8 ft length. So for exterior walls that will be shear walls with 15/32″ plywood, should the bowed part be on inside or outside ? Don’t I just want all the bows to be either in or out, but what is important that all studs be bowed either in or out ? When does the crown even matter, if the stud bends with a crown, why does it matter, doesnt it just mean that the stud would not be perfectly straight up and down ? To me, having all the studs ‘bow’ in the same direction is more important for when the drywall is hung. All I can get is the wet doug fir at my local home depot since the nearest lumber yard is closed this weekend.
thanks for your replies
Replies
kwolsen
Crown goes to the exterior and yes, all the crowns go the same direction. Pick through the pile, don't put anything in there that is "bad". 1/2" crown in a wall 8' tall is on the verge of cut it up for something else.
Bow, pull them in so they're straight as you apply the sheeting.
If you have trouble, assemble a good and straight corner. As you install the sheathing, stick a block in between the studs that corresponds to your plate layout. Nail that stud off. Do the same with properly sized blocks the rest of the way if they're bowed.
Geez, I should be thankful to live in Ohio where wood is straight, or you are blind.
Best of luck.
I think you have "crown" and
I think you have "crown" and "bow" backwards.
Separate out badly crowned studs to be cut up for blocking.
Dan
I read the beginning and think he's got it right.
He holds the stud flat and looks down it and sees a curve- crown.
He holds it on edge and sees a curve- bow.
But, when I read further and he mentions straight......................
The last line is the killer. Wet now, who knows when it dries?
But then he talks about the bow being in or out.
It is a mystery isn't it?
in / out
left / right?
That's what I meant. In the first few lines I thought one thing. The further down the post, I thought another.
If and when he re-appears we may get the rest of the story.
I'm with Calvin - The bow always goes to the outside. If they're too crooked to use as a stud, cut them up for shorter pieces wherever ya need them.
thanks !
thanks guys, yeah, I may have messed up the defintion of crown vs bow, but bottom line is your all saying the out of plane in the 1.5" direction goes to the outside. Upon further review, think this is the crown. It is the one that makes your drywall waving, so make em all on the outside. For bow, I like Calvins idea of attempting to straighten out the stud bow when applying the sheathing.
It's easy to remember: "bow"
It's easy to remember: "bow" is like a bow-and-arrow -- you wouldn't try to "bow" the board the stiff direction but rather the flexible direction. "Crown" is most easily understood with floor joists -- you (almost) always install them "crown-up", so they'll tend to straighten when weight is applied.
noise from floor
yeah, good explanation. I think I some of my floor joists possibly have the crown down, but when I put sheathing down I put a 4 ft level across the joists, any that were high, I planned with electric planer. I am certain all the joists were level, but now I get this cracking/popping sound only early in the morning when I first walk on the sheathin, during the day when I'm working in the area there is no sound. The room aint done, 2 of 3 walls are up on the 3/4 inch TG sheathing which has 2 tubes of loctite pl premium adhesive per 4x8 sheet. I used those GRP screws, 2.5 inch every 6 inch, but cant figure out the early morning pops. In the area that makes the noise, I can't get it to repeat like one would with a loose subfloor nail. It only pops or creaks one time in the morning in a few places. The flooring is on a new rasied foundation, 9'-3" x 17'. The 9'-3" lenght is split split by a 4x6 girder, total over kill and the 2x6 joists are on 12" centers. Any ideas ?
Kwolsen
Mark the spot of the noise, drill a hole or drive a nail. Go underneath and start hunting for the reason.
The 9'-3" lenght is split split by a 4x6 girder, total over kill and the 2x6 joists are on 12" centers. Any ideas ?
What's the span length of the 4x6 and 2x6's?
the 2x6's span 9'-3" and are
the 2x6's span 9'-3" and are split in half by the 4x6 girder. The 4x6 girder is a solid beam. The 2x6's are continious, they are not lapped at the 4x6. Where each 2x6 rests on the 4x6, there are 3 16d toe nails plus one simpson A35. The city inspector said I didn't need to have bridge blocking between the 2x6's at the 4x6, but I'm wondering if I should have. I mounted the A35's (one per joist at the 4x6) vertically by bending one of the tabs, since that is how the Simpson catalog showed it, but the inspector said I should have mounted horizontally instead but did not care since it was properly toe nailed. The 4x6 girder is 17' long and is supported by 2 piers and 2 pockets in the foundation that has about 4" ledge. (foundation is about 8" wide). The piers are 16x16X8 with those simspon brackets and lots of nails. in the pockets, the girders sit on a piece of PT 2x4 and some shims to make it tight.
some shims to make it tight.
Here, shims under beams cannot be wood. Metal (or the solid plastic that you use to shim steel) are allowed.
Check there.
girder shims
Calvin
I didn't know that. Do you know why in your area they are not allowed ? Probably not good for the load on it. I can get under there and pop them out and replace with steal or I've seen the plastic ones at local home depot. Should I make make my own steel shims or are they at home depot?
When you install those shims, how to you know how tight to make the shims, at some point wont you start to lift the girder even though it is being pulled 'down' by the nearby (about 4' away from pocket) pier? Thanks for your replies. I'll post a photo soon so you guys can get a better idea of what the addition is.
girder shims
I've never asked why................
But the first time I heard it, it came from the god of inspection, the gestapo of inspection, the all knowing of inspection.
pick one.
"you know, if you shim that beam, I don't want wood".
Here's my thoughts. Shims (non pressure treated) might not want to be in contact with masonry. Cedar, while resistant to rot, is quite soft. A common cedar shim, while alright for taking the rock out of the kitchen table or holding a door or window jamb in place, can crush quite easily.
Steel or solid plastic made for shimming, cannot crush. Steel in contact with damp masonry might rust over time, but it's not the fender of you old Dodge.
Steel shims? I have a stash of pcs of 1/8", 1/4" and even some 3/8". Cutoffs from other stuff........................
If I need them, I go to a steel supplier and ask. If they have a larger pc, you can cut off your size easily with an angle grinder. If you order them, they'll shear whatever size you want.
Plastic shims? I got a box of various sizes from some iron workers the last time I had HUGE steel set in an old commercial bldg. It pays to be nice. Donuts don't hurt either.
How tight.
Initially, you want that beam level, so that's how tight. To make it right.
In remodels or maybe possible in your case-you want it tight w/o lifting the other end. If there's spring, there's movement and that tends to feel spongy, won't last and things settle down and might cause "noise" as concentrated weight is put on it.
girder shimming
and now that we are talking girder shims, when we formed the pockets, we made them way to tall, so I cut a piece of PT 2x to sit on the ledge, then shimmed with wood shims. So, does it matter how the PT block is orientated ? It needs to fill about 3 inch gap, so does it matter if there are 2 pieces of 2x4 (1.5 plus 1.5 to fill the 3") or a 2 seperate pieces cut to 3"? Guess what I'm asking if the grain of the blocking matters, parallel or perpendicular to the beam?
girder shimming
For a "gap" that large, I would have placed and grouted solid concrete block (a concrete brick probably) to get it close. Then I would have set the beam.
Does it matter what way the grain goes? Well, we don't use wood, so no. However, splitting might occur easier in a vertical block v. something flat.
getting square walls
one wall I framed is 9'-3" x 8 ft tall, has one 3x3 window, 2x4 studs. I built it on the deck of the room it is about to make. When I measure the diaganols, the differnce is about 1 ". So, it ain't square. Not sure why, the flooring is level and all studs were cut to exact same lenght. How do I square it ? Leave on deck and push on somehow and then put a 12' 1"x6" temporary brace across it diagonally while it is square? This will be a shear wall that will have 4x10 15/32" plywood sheets installed after it is nailed up. The wall is temporary nailed up but I can pull it down easily. Any advice ?
It's a wall, and it has crowned studs............so here is good
This will be harder to explain than to do.
Cut the plates exactly the same length (or if they need to be diff. lengths, account for that in the measurement)
Chalk a line back off the edge of the deck where you want the inside of the bottom plate to be.
Nail your wall together and drag it to the line. Toe nail the edge of the plate to inside of that line in the exact location it's going (nail thru the bottom of the plate, at an angle into the deck).. Prior to bracing or putting plywood on, then lifting in place-check the diagonals. If the plates are the same or in the position to measure, they might be the same. If not, pull the top plate one direction or the other to make them the same. You are just moving one plate (with studs attached).
Once you have it right, toe nail the top plate to the deck (temporarily) till you get the brace or sheeting on it. Braced or sheeted, remove the top plate temp nails and lift the wall. With the plate nailed at the bottom, you should be able to lift it w/o it sliding off the deck.
note: some use lumber banding in place of the toe nailing to hold the bottom plate where it goes. After chalking your line, take a 16" pc of strap. Nail to the deck (over a joist) that strap so one end is even with the outside of the deck. Leave that end loose, nail the end out in the room. After you drag your wall over there to it's place, bend up the strap and nail it to the bottom of the bottom plate. do that in three places for your wall.
Make any sense?
squaring up walls
I get it, thanks. When your saying "You are just moving one plate (with studs attached)", if I'm moving the top of the wall, shouldn't I have both top plates attached at this time, or just nail the second top plate after the wall is uprighted ? Once i get it squared using the method you described, if I put one 12' 1x6 diagonal, is that enough to keep it square, while it's being lifted ? I'd prefer to put my 4x10 plywood sheathing on after the wall is upright, mostly because the wall would be even heavier and the crew is me and wife.
Small crew
A 1x6 could be enough if you fasten it well and don't screw around too much hoisting that wall. I'd get the wall right, take the longest brace you can get to place it at a 45 deg. angle, and go from one corner to the other (or close). Make sure it's fastened to both top and bottom plates, as well as the studs it crosses. Probably use deck screws so you can remove easily. A full sheet of ply placed anywhere on that wall vertically would probably also hold it true. Nail that off. There is metal bracing available too that you "let in" by cutting a slot across all the studs and the plates. You leave that in and sheet over.
To sheet, you'll have to remove your wood brace. Probably be wise to place one on the interior of the wall b/4 you remove the first for sheathing.
The double plate could be in position with it held short so your other wall's plate can lap over. However, you want to have the wall diagonal measurement to the same point (length) of both bottom and single top plate. The diagonal method of squaring needs both pairs measurements the same (Heights and lengths) .
If your deck is level and the wall is square, your new wall corner should be plumb.
Connecting new wall to house wall. IF the house wall is plumb, and you have no gap between it and you new wall when in position, you can fasten the two. If there is a gap, then something isn't kosher. Either the deck is not lever or the house wall is not plumb.
ok, now i get why your saying have only one top plate while bracing, makes sense. I like that metal bracing idea, I'll see if my local home depot has it, if not, I'll use the 1x6. thanks for your advice. Think I'll get all 3 walls up and hire a real carpenter to do the hip roof framing so I don't have a massive pile of scrap attempting to learn how to do a hip.
Kwolsen
Your floor is square and level?
With your walls ending up the same, the carpenter will produce a beautiful hip.
You know to layout these walls from the same end so both paralell walls have the same stud layout?
Might not hurt to get the carpenter there and explain what you are doing. He might be able to correct a problem b/4 it happens. While reading and internet opinions might be correct, sometimes there's things lost in the translation.
Best of luck.
yes, floor is square and level.
yes, I laid out the parallel walls from same end so they have the same stud layout ( got lucky here that I actually started from the same end!!, another reason to hire a pro !!!)
good advice on having real carpenter come out, thinking it is time to just let him frame the last wall (the 17 ft one) and since my two 9 ft walls are not nailed to sheathing, if I have blew anything, it is not too late.
thanks for your advice !
finally uploaded a picture, take a look.
behind the tree you can see existing gable roof. finished product will be a hip. reason is that second part of this job were adding 2 bed and a bath, we didnt want a massive gable (so will have a massive hip instead, or maybe we can be creative and break it up a bit).
on the right there is basically two walls, the second one is just to the right of the temporary stairs. The right most supports the existing porch header. It is nailed off, but needs an MST48 at the top. The right wall has a window pretty low, this is because this area has a banquette eating area, like a restaruant booth, and wife wants to see yard from booth. This makes up the end of the galley style kitchen. The other two walls are not fully nailed off. I know, the braces are kinda in wrong spot for framing of final wall.
May seem weird that we already did rough plumbing, but since we had access to get under joists we did it now. I did cut an access hole in the existing foundation to get in this area but figured the plumbing would be easier now.
Left side wall has a partition wall that will join it.
You're welcome.
Hey, unless we were born with it, this stuff just needs to be learned. We were all in the same boat. Some of us went into medicine, the rest of us dumb smucks decided the building trades were the way to go.
who else could be so lucky as to get to work outside, use your hands, appreciate what you've done at the end of the day......................and all that other stuff that takes away the sting of cold and wet, arthritis, etc.
Get some pictures of this project on here. It's nice to see.
thanks.
kwolsen
I found this ( http://bct.eco.umass.edu/publications/by-title/bracing-foam-sheathed-walls/ ) looking for a picture of the metal diag. bracing. Interesting read on loads and bracing.
So, does it matter how the PT block is orientated ?
Generally you'd want the grain to run at right angles to the beam (or whatever) the block is supporting, so that if the block cracks it can't slide out from under the beam.
And PT or not, you should use some sort of non-porous membrane/barrier between wood and masonry. Can be a piece of metal flashing, rubber membrane, even a chunk of that old Vette body in Junkhound's back yard.
2x6 joists and a 4x6 girder don't sound like "total over kill" to me. Only if the girder is supported by multiple posts would it even be adequate, if I'm understanding your layout.
It's fairly simple, you don't use badly crowned or bowed 2Xs as wall studs. You set them aside and cut them up for jacks, trimmers, sills, blocking and other shorter pieces, if possible. A stud with a slight bow or crown can be straightened out when nailed to straighter, more solid assemblys such as, doubles, partition leads, corners or jacks. A carpenters job is to make things straight, plumb and level. Use the straightest 2Xs for stand alone studs. Joists and rafters are a different matter. Don't confuse the "crown up" technique in those applications with wall building. You want the straightest walls you can get. If a few studs are crowned 1/8" place them with the crowns in the same direction, either way, in or out. Don't alternate them or it will double the discrepancy from one to the next. It's really a matter of looking at the lumber pieces and using them in the appropriate places. At times, you will have a few pieces that just aren't useable except for temporary braces or short blocking.
hint
good point, I was getting good advice from you and others and didnt want to start a new thread thinking you may not see it.