Quick question:
In building this structure that I’m on which is tall and thin requiring major 6X6 posts joined floor to floor with simpson straps I sometimes come across situations where the distance between the inside of two adjacent posts will be something like … say .. 37 inches.
The question is, given this theoretical situation would you go ahead and honor the 16″OC rule and come in that far from one post to place a stud… resulting in another stud being placed only a few inches from the other post? OR … would you subdivide the limited space … disregard the usual 16″ OC … and just place the two studs evenly spaced apart, say 12 1/2 inches or so, within the 37″ ???
It would seem to me that the latter would be stronger … but you would, of course, have to cut your insulation for the bay … and also .. harder to get in and make wiring holes with so little space between studs.
thanks –
T.
Replies
Assuming the wall is only 37 inches total I would center a 16 inch space inbetween the two. Actually if it's only a 37 inch wall Just drop on stud in the very middle and you should only be two and a half too big. not a big deal. If theres going to be a coat hanger or shelf or anything that will hold weight nailed to it I'd probably do as you suggested with dividing the space up into 5 equal spaces I hope that helps you.
Is this just a single unit, or do you have repeating units ( more 6x6 posts spaced 37" inside to inside). Is this getting sheathed??
At 37" inside to inside, you have 48" outside to outside ( 37" inside + 5 1/2" +5 1/2"), so you could sheath the entire unit in one 4x8 sheet. Why not go with one stud centered in the opening ( now your at 24 o.c. spacing).
m2akita
At 37" inside to inside, you have 48" outside to outside ( 37" inside + 5 1/2" +5 1/2"), so you could sheath the entire unit in one 4x8 sheet. Why not go with one stud centered in the opening ( now your at 24 o.c. spacing).
m2akita-
aha! ... an observant one. Yes .. that would be a solution IF I were working on a standard framed wall. But what I'm working on requires shear walls that are much more 'heavily armed' than the standard wall. I don't know if it's a part of the UBC or just local but there are designations of Shear Wall strength ... ranging from SW-1 to SW-5. This wall is an SW(shearwall)-3 ... which means that I CANNOT drop to a 24 on center. It MUST be 16OC or better with 3X at all lines where ply edges meet. So there's gotta be 2 studs in that pocket ... question is ... space 'em equally? .. .or stick, for some reason I'm not seeing, to 16" oc.
Is this just a single unit, or do you have repeating units ( more 6x6 posts spaced 37" inside to inside). Is this getting sheathed??
What I have is one large room upon the same upon the same upon the same. Four rooms ... one on top of the other ... going straight up. Four floors ... each exactly the same ... approx 13' X 19' ... one on top of another on top of another. It's a 'tower'. And each floor has 11 large posts that need to be joined in one continuous 'column' running from foundation to roof ... shear wall unit to shear wall unit. So each floor will have this 37" spacing at that corner where I'm dealing with it now.
Terry
Ahhhh, in the back of my head there was this voice that kept saying shear wall, Shear wall, SHEAR WALL!!!! Maybe it was the 6x6 posts giving it away.
I would equally space the studs, dont see a need to keep with the conventional 16" o.c. spacing. But I dont know squat about shear walls.
-m2akitaLive by the sword, die by the sword....but choose your sword wisely.
I would equally space the studs, dont see a need to keep with the conventional 16" o.c. spacing...
Just finished framing that wall and made the same decision sounds like you woulda. DAMN these SW-3 an 4 walls are BEEFY!!!
thanks!
T.
In a shearwall, the action is at the edges. You could do the inboard studs either way. One downside to making small stud bays to stay on layout is that you can't get your mitts in there to work on anything, or have room to swing a hammer. Equally spaced at twelve and a fraction avoids that.
-- J.S.
At least your giving things some thought.
You'll have to choose your poison.
I often disregard the 16" spacing and wing it. I prefer to see the spaces somewhat equal, but I wouldn't bother using a tape measure to space them. I'd just put some marks on the plates by eye about 12" apart.
blue
"The question is, given this theoretical situation would you go ahead and honor the 16"OC rule and come in that far from one post to place a stud... resulting in another stud being placed only a few inches from the other post?"
I always do and never change stud layout and stack the studs right above the 16" center joists layout. Why change? What about mechanical? The way you want to do it can land a stud in between the joists.
I'm sure there's a good chance that the floor joists centers above will follow the same layout as the floor joists below, so if you have to have any mechanical run down from the second floor to the first floor and you interrupt the path because you put a stud in the way your in trouble. What's the savings?
Another poster got me thinking about sheathing--to make that easier, I might think about arbitrarily starting at one end and measure 16" increments from there (assuming that will be the point at which you start your first 48" sheet of plywood). Then nail the studs so they center on the 16" increments so the plywood edge will land halfway on a stud. You may have to start from a corner with a partial sheet of plywood to make it work out well. IMO, you don't want your plywood edges to land on the edges of the 6x6's.
Danno, the sheathing on a 37" wall will not have a seam.
Your idea to layout for longer walls makes sense and most framers will use that technique every chance that they can.
blue
I guess I'm not understanding--I thought he said four floors one on top of the other, each 13 feet by 19 feet. If that is correct, then I agree with Joe Carola (always a good idea, as he gives excellent advice 100% of the time that I've read his posts) and would indeed go with standard 16" centered stud layout and avoid lots of problems down the road--like trying to remember where the studs are so you can nail into them, run pipes between them, etc.
Danno, I didn't remember that it was four floors. He doesn't even say if there is floor joist coming under the wall to factor in his decision making. He doesn't say that it is an exterior wall.
All of these considerations should be taken into account by anyone laying out a wall.
The one thing that I won't agree on is that it is important to maintain 16" oc spacing, just to say that "I ALWAYS maintain 16" oc spacing". That rigid type of thinking occsionally causes illogical or impractical things to happen in a rough frame.
I believe the original poster was being smart when he was analyzing the varying factors of that particular wall. In most walls, it's very easy to quickly determine if there will be a need for mechanicals and that should be done on EVERY WALL. If the determination is made that no mechanicals will be penetrating that wall, then the need to stack studs over joists doesn't really come into the decison.
I've build hundreds of two story homes and I've rarely stacked the exterior wall studs over the joists. In most cases, if I did that, I'd be creating a substantial amount of wasted materials and time. I cannot see any reason to waste that lumber, or my time, just to follow some obsessive compulsion. In my earliest days of my carpenter career, I was compulsive like that, but I've learned to shed those baseless needs and instead focused my energies on things that matter.
I do stack all the studs over the joists on the interior partitions, that run perpincicular to the joist. I KNOW all the penetrations for the mechanicals will be coming up through there and I don't want to have to adjust the studs when I cut the heat holes.
Last point: even if I eyeballed equal spaces on this tiny 37" wall, and had to do it on four floors, I'm sure all the studs would be stacked well enough to get a wire up through there. We don't run plumbing in our exterior walls in these freezing climates and we also don't run heats up there unless there wasn't another way. If the heat situation was so dire that we had to run a heat up in that wall, I'd certainly know about it. I'd then mentally place the required hole (about 8") in the wall and check to see ifa joist was interfereing. If it was, I'd adjust the hole layout to fit.
I've always been amazed at how fixated some carpenters will be with their 16" center layouts. I've seen non bearing 10" cripples nailed in two inches from the edge. Do we really think the drywall needs to be supported at 10" centers AND 16" centers?!!!
Being flexible in my thinking,
blue
He did so make it clear that this was an exterior wall. it is also the second fllor walll and he plans to keep going higher with more floors.I understood him to say that there were continous 6x6s running up through at 37" apart, not that the wall was only 37" tall
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Piffin,
It's not clear that its an outside wall. The only clue is insulation and I've insulated many inside walls, usually for soundproofing.
It's not clear that the 37'' spaces are part of a larger wall.
For the record, I would stay on layout if it was part of the larger wall.
The first point I made to him, I still stand by: keep thinking about the walls and give every angle an honest assesment. Don't take any "rule of thumb" for granted.
blue
It's not clear that its an outside wall....
Every wall of this structure is an outside wall; as stated, it's four rooms ... one upon the other ... going up to 40 feet. A four floor 'tower'. Each room 13X19 (or so) and every wall either the N, S, E, or W outside wall.
That's why, btw, the rain/water consideration is so real. Each time I'm putting walls up I've GOT to keep the floor protected from heavy rain because of the tji's supporting it ... and also because the water would stand and pool in the single room that I'm building ... (and drain down through floor by floor) ... then .. when I get the next floor on overhead .... it is NOT the 'roof' ... so there's yet another set of tji's to protect from the wet. So it's never-ending.
thanks for all the feedback!
T.
Do they run HVAC ducts on the outside walls?Joe Carola
Valid points, especially about being fixated on a certain stud spacing.
OTOH, I am reminded of a recent remodeling job where the studs were indeed 16" o.c. and after trying unsuccessfully to drive screws through the drywall into studs (sometimes there were rows of screw holes a half inch apart going for six inches!), the guys who hung the old cabinets finally just took their hammers and knocked holes in every stud bay! The guy I work with is sometimes (especially when it doesn't matter) compulsive and he had me patch and smooth and he sanded every hole before we hung the new cabinets! (He had a valid worry about air leaks, I suppose.)
Funny story Danno.
guys who hung the old cabinets finally just took their hammers and knocked holes in every stud bay!
OTOH, I refuse to base my carpentry decision on the basis of what some jackal might do.
blue
In pre-WWII buildings, before plywood and drywall, they would fudge the centering to 16 1/4, 16 1/2 or so in some places.
They didn't need to bash big holes in very stud bay, that was probably just frustration. You can drill a small hole and feel with a piece of wire instead. Then a little quick caulk or spackle fixes the hole.
-- J.S.
that was probably just frustration
Your being too kind. That wasn't frustration, it was idiocy. Once you locate one stud, the tape measure will find all the rest.
blue
If this is a shear wall, you should follow the drawing details.
I tend to design/build with the studs marked from the center of the wall rather than the end. Your 48" wall would have studs centered at 16" and 32".
By staying with the 16" oc spacing you'll have fewer problems with sheathing nailing, siding nailing, sheetrock, blocking, insulation, etc.
It doesn't take many instances of struggling to find the stud to make the "easy and less expensive" route the harder and more expensive.
Remember, it sounds easy to find an off spaced stud until the sheathing is on, and even harder still once the house wrap has hidden the nailing pattern.
Nope, we don't vary from 16" oc very often.