Replies

1. 
   Jim_Allen | Aug 16, 2008 07:20pm | #1

   Any construction adhesive will suffice. Asking for the best is like asking which is better; a ford or a chevy.

   No glue and screws with no nails will produce a squeak free subfloor.

   Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

   Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"

1. 
   IMERC | Aug 17, 2008 01:29am | #9

   right then and there the floor maybe tight and squeak free...

   but later the squeaks will show up after climate changes and floor traffic....

   garenteed.... 

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

   WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

1. 
   Framer | Aug 17, 2008 01:51am | #10

   but later the squeaks will show up after climate changes and floor traffic....

   garenteed....

   What's guaranteed? The floor that's nailed will squeak and not the floor that's screwed?

   I can tell you right now that I nail and glue all sub-floors w/ring shank nails. I have proof that they don't squeak because I've put additions on just about every one of my friends and all families houses, and years and years later, no squeaks, no complaints so far.

   I'm not saying that I've never built a house or addition that later on the floors haven't squeaked with people who I don't know, but so far with friends and family, their houses haven't squeaked. If there are other houses and additions that I've framed through builders and GC's, they never call me back and tell me that the sub-floors are squeaking.

   There was one house I framed 10 years ago in the middle of the winter, the lumberyard sent me some new glue, I don't remember the name. I do remember the glue being dark brown. Before the HO was ready for the floors, they call me back about 6 months later with some squeaks. I went back and discovered that some areas the glue never stuck to the plywood or joists.

   If there are any squeaks, it's because the person nailing missed the joists. That  will get notice before we get done framing.

    

   Joe Carola

   Edited 8/16/2008 6:53 pm ET by Framer

1. 
   IMERC | Aug 17, 2008 02:43am | #12

   I'm saying mechanically only fastened subfloors w/o adhesive at some point in time start to squeak...

   it just happens....

   repaired way to many not to believe in the long range benifits of adhesive/mechanical fastening from the git go...

   also after market adhesives don't seem to preform nearly as well as PL (OSI) and Liquid Nails is garbage... 

   rings or scews is a pesonal choice... commons don't do nearly as well even with adhesive....

   rmember the bulk of my work is cleaning up, making right or redoing after others... sometimes right away... sometimes much later...

   because I have an remedy or completely redo I get to see what worked or what failed...

   also see the short cuts and cost cutters...

   same for the segments that performed and why....

     

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

   WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

1. 
   Jim_Allen | Aug 17, 2008 02:57am | #13

   I'm going to respectively disagree with you and offer the following proof. Pulte Corporation did not let anyone glue or nail. I use them as proof because they were actually a very good company about honoring warranties. They went to great lengths to eliminate callbacks. Eliminating the glue and nails was one of their findings that reduced their callbacks. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

   Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"

2. 
   IMERC | Aug 17, 2008 03:54am | #14

   that isn't much for proof....

   they don't want call back in warrenty time is all and cut corners at the same time...

   aren't they they people that say we have met code and have our CO....

   drop the conversation and walk off...

   why is Pulte pulling out of here....

   Remeber the homes that DougU and I looked that lacked barrier, felt, streched revels and a sundry of other cost cutting short cuts...

   that was Pulte...

   here their credibility sucks...

   they're the ones that get "kick backs from" the subs...

   that were indicted and convicted for fraund...

   and the list is endless....

   bud... yur proof is the absoulte pits... 

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

   WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

3. 
   Jim_Allen | Aug 17, 2008 07:31pm | #17

   I don't know what Pulte was doing in your neck of the woods. In MI, pulte had every detail engineered and they had white hats with clipboards verifying every detail. They were by far the most comprehensively inspected houses that I've ever worked on. They also wer e the most demanding builder that we ever worked for in terms of honoring warranties. Personally, I couldn't work for them because I just didn't agree with so much of the overengineered stuff that they wanted us to do for free. The main thing that I learned is that there are no squeaks on a floor that is properly screwed even if there is no glue. But....the key word is properly. That meant that there were no shiners and no nails. And yes, that was all inspected by guys with hardhats. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

   Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"

4. 
   IMERC | Aug 17, 2008 08:56pm | #18

   what I have discovered with floor squeaks....

   this from well nailed/screwed decks and not just sat 3 or 4 fasteners in the field and a few around the edges... 

   1. common nailed, no glue... it was a given...

        - brights loosen quicker than galvenized but they both loosen...

   the decking moves on the fasterner and/or the fastener also loosens in the framing member...

   so much for the rust makes for a coarse gripping surface and hold better...

   2. rings only... eventually...

   mostly it's the deck riding the fastener here too...

   3. screws only... took a while but it happens.. not all the time, but every once in a while it happens...

   again it's the decking moving and not the fastener...

   4. rings or screws AND glue... yet to find one... 

   that's just what I have discovered from experience... nothing moves...

   experience dictates process...

   now we're not confusing loose decks with component groans here...

   we can start another thread for that...

   as far as Pulte goes...

   here it's buyer beware... be afraid... very afraid is more like it....

     

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

   WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

5. 
   BillHartmann | Aug 18, 2008 02:48am | #19

   I see a lot of people like ureathane (PL Preminum) for subfloor
   adesive.I wonder if any one has tried the foam cans of poly subfloor adhesvies
   such as Dow Eenerbond or Totod Pur Stick.http://www.themanstoreonline.com/Ener-Enerbond-SF-Polyurethane-Foam-Adhesive-p/ener45-dow.htmhttp://www.todol.com/products/purstick.htmlhttp://www.foampower.com/products/handi_stick.htmlhttp://www.touch-n-seal.com/panelbond.htm.
   .
   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

6. 
   IMERC | Aug 30, 2008 01:27am | #20

   something else I noticed...

   the longer the subfloor is exposed to the elements the more prone it is to squeak...

   and if the dweling's are really large as in extremely overwieght the floor isn't squeaking as much as it is complaining....  

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

   WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

2. 
   Scott | Aug 16, 2008 07:54pm | #2

   My experience supports what Jim says. I took it upon myself to drive screws in our subfloor because the framing crew (stupidly) didn't think it was necessary. Unfortunately, I didn't get to all areas. In those areas where there are screws and glue = no squeaks. In those areas with gun nails and glue = some squeaks. Hence, I'd say screws are the important factor. Lots of them. I did approx 16" o. c.

   Scott.

   Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”

1. 
   dustinf | Aug 16, 2008 08:08pm | #3

   I don't want to get into the argument again, but a properly nailed/glued sub-floor won't squeak.

    It's not too late, it's never too late.

2. 
   Framer | Aug 16, 2008 08:34pm | #4

   I took it upon myself to drive screws in our subfloor because the framing crew (stupidly) didn't think it was necessary.

   I wouldn't use stupidly to describe the framers for not using screws because that's simple not true. It almost sounds like framers who don't use screws are stupid. Was it on the plans? Or, is it something that you just think should've been done? I NEVER screw sub-floors down. Have I, yes, couple times. Is it necessary, NO!

   I glue and nail sub-floors down with ring shank nails. I never here of any complaints about squeaking. It could depend on whether they hit the joists when nail, what type of sub-floor you used. Screwing isn't the ultimate answer for squeak free floors.

   Take a poll here and see how many framers screw compared to nailing w/ring shank nails.

    

    Joe Carola

1. 
   Scott | Aug 16, 2008 08:47pm | #5

   >>>I glue and nail sub-floors down with ring shank nails. That was the mistake. They were using standard un-shanked gun nails.Sorry about the word "Stupid"; that's probably a bit strong, although "stupid" is exactly how they made me feel as I followed them around sinking screws in the floor that they had just glued and (poorly) nailed.The proof is in the product though. We've got no squeaks in the glued and screwed areas.Scott.PS... I wasn't aware that this had been thrashed out before. The OP would be wise to hit the archives.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”

1. 
   Matt | Aug 17, 2008 01:55am | #11

   All nails have shanks.  Some are smooth though. 

   For nails, I prefer ring shanks for subfloors.  My experience is that if enough glue is used and the joist spacing is conservative, screws are not necessary.     As often as not when they do screw down a subfloor they use a QuickDrive gun and 1.75" screws - which aren't long enough anyway.

   I also have had a floor installed with glue and screws and it squeaked.  The problem was the 24" joist spacing and the 375# HO.  We (a framer and I) spent a few hours adding more (long) screws and cutting any partition bottom plate nails that were not in joists.  We got *most* of the squeaks.  Luckily, the HO was reasonable enough to realize that his weight had something to do with it.  Taught me a lesson though about joist spacing and big people...If I had to do it over again, I'm not sure how I would have told him that I was gonna have to charge him a few hundred dollars more because he was gravitationally challenged.Another thing is to put glue in the "sadle" of any hangers.

1. 
   Scott | Aug 17, 2008 08:03am | #16

   >>>All nails have shanks. Some are smooth though. Ok, thanks. Technicality understood.>>>For nails, I prefer ring shanks for subfloors.Yah, these guys were using clipped head, 2" stick nails with no rings.>>>The problem was the 24" joist spacing and the 375# HO.I can imagine steel I-beams squeaking with that kind of span and stress.... LOL.>>>Another thing is to put glue in the "sadle" of any hangers.Thanks for the tip.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”

2. 
   Jim_Allen | Aug 16, 2008 08:49pm | #6

   A well nailed floor will normally perform quite well and generally be squeak free.
   It's also possible for a poorly screwed floor to squeak. I think "stupidly" is a wrong term too. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

   Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"

3. 
   Piffin | Aug 17, 2008 12:45am | #7

   I glue and ring nailIn answer to the OP, PL Premium is the best choice in subfloor adhesive. It goes further than PL 200 or 400 because being a polyurethane glue, it expands slightly to fill voids. Also, it is moisture cured, rather than drying type so it works well with damp lumber which impedes adhesion with the other glues 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   IMERC | Aug 17, 2008 01:17am | #8

   when it comes to construction adhesive...

   the PL series wins hands down.... 

    

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

   WOW!!! What a Ride!
   Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

4. 
   andybuildz | Aug 17, 2008 07:48am | #15

   I used PL Premium to glue down all my Advantech subfloors and ring shanks on most...some screws on others.

   It's kind the same thought process about putting down CBU's....Do you really need to use CBU screws instead of roofers if you thinset the CBU? No.

   edit:LOL...I do have a confession to make...lol...I can't help but put at least a few screws in the CBU's...I dunno...sumpin' about breaking old habits..lol

    

   RD : ) http://www.ramdass.org/

   http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM 

   Blog     http://cliffordrenovations.com/WP/                           

   
   

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   Edited 8/17/2008 12:50 am ET by andybuildz