Hey Fellas,
I just got finished ripping up my floor in the bathroom. It was rotted so I took it down to the floor joists. I saw-zalled it around the perimeter and once I got it all up I realized I have to support the perimeter somehow and also have a nailer for the deck and subfloor. I have some wide gaps in some spots maybe 6-8″ to the stud, but in others only a few inches. Any ideas how I can get a nailer around the perimeter and also provide the necessary support. I need to make up 2′ to come level to the toilet flange, so I plan on putting down 3/4″ply and then 1/2″ over that and then 1/2″ Hardibacker and finish it with 3/8″ x 16″ tile. Suggestions would be well appreciated.
Replies
I don't understand what you mean by gaps of 6-8" to the studs. Is there that much of the old subfloor left alongside a wall? Do the joists run parallel to a balloon framed wall?
In any case, you might consider lowering the toilet flange, and dropping the subfloor down between the joists, supported by 1x2 ledgers nailed to the sides of the joists. That way you can get the finished tile floor in the bath much closer to the level of the floor outside.
-- J.S.
John, What I meant by "gaps" is that there is that amount of space between the bottom plate and the closet stud. As I said in my post I took a sawzall to the whole perimeter. There is no piece of floor left at all. The floor joists run two different directions, so at some point, yes, the do run parallell and others, no. I don't want to lower the flange etc.. because the height of the old flange and "outside" floor matched up fine before I ripped the floor out so I'm not going to change that. That's why I'm making up the 2" with 3/4", 1/2" and 1/2" Hardibacker with 3/8" tile. I just need to figure out how to support the perimeter. I'm stumped.
I'm still not seeing the picture here. It sounds complicated with joists running in two directions. Under those circumstances about all I can say is that there might be things you can do with joist hangers and the same size lumber as the joists to get good solid support where you need it. If possible, post some pictures.
-- J.S.
John,
The bathroom is upstairs that I'm working on. If you walk in the door,your looking at the far wall (outside of house). From the mid-point of the room to the outside walls the floor joists run vertical, I believe they support the cantelever on the front of the house. Now from the mid-point toward the door entrance the floor joists run parallel to the exterior wall. That's the joists running two different directions as I mentioned. Now, I'll see if I can try to make this clearer for you about what I'm trying to do. When the bathroom walls were erected in this house the floor plates were laid on the decking but not precisely over floor joists, so when I cut out the decking around the perimeter I was left with floor plates that are running down the middle of floor joists, with nothing underneath them. Picture laying two floor joists on the ground 16" apart, put a piece of plywood on top of these joists and place a 2x4 on top of this piece of plywood, let's say in the center of the plywood( which would mean there is no joist under the 2x4, okay? Now, cut out and remove a piece of the plywood from one side of the 2x4 and you'll be left with two joists with a piece of plywood nailed on one side with a 2x4 suspended on the plywood at the midpoint of the two floor joists. Picture this 2x4 as the floor plate of the bathroom and that's where I'm at. Are you picturing this a little better? I had no choice but to cut out the whole floor because of the condition of the floor, but I never even thought about the floor plates running parallell and in between the floor joists. So now I have to get some support and nailers or "something" in there. Rick
Sounds like you got some ceiling patches ahead of you. The only thing i can think of is to get at it from below and put in some blocking in between the floor joists, if you just open up the one bay you can toenail them in. If the wall above is a bearing wall then you might want to consider joist hangers but i think it may be overkill so long as you can nail them well with #12 nails.
Ricky,
What a pain.
You need blocking of some sort to suport that wall. It's gonna be tough with limited access.
I'll assume (yea, yeah) that your current joists are 2x10s. Is there any chance that you could glue and screw a 2x4 ledger to the inside face of the two joists that make up that joist bay, set so the top of the ledger is 5 1/2" below the top of the joists? Figure 9.5" deep joists. 3.5" deep ledger. 2x6 blocking, which is 5.5" deep. That leaves a half-inch gap (9.5"-5.5"-3.5"=0.5")
Here's an idea:
Get a couple of small half-inch pieces of wood to be used as spacers/shims. Place them in each bay, in the bottom corners where the drywall from the celing below meets the bottom of the joist.
On top of those half-inch spacers, place your 2x4 ledger. Before placing, predrill holes for structural (not drywall) screws, start the screws, and lay a few beads of construction adhesive on the back side of the 2x4 to adhere the 2x4 ledger to the joist. Screw the ledger to the joist. The spacers, plus the thickness of the ledger, should place the top of the ledger about 5.5" below the tops of the joists.
Repeat, screwing a ledger to the inside of the other joist.
Cut 2x6 blocking to fit the width of the bay. Predrill screw holes in the ends to "toe-nail" (toe-screw) the blocking to the joists. These will be tough to install with limited room, etc...but realize that the ledger will take the brundt of the load, the "toe-screws", while also distributing load, are primarily to hold the blocking vertically. If you can toe-screw from both sides of the block, great. If only from one side, that's just as good. If you want, you can double up the blocking (two 2x6 blocks glued and screwed together to make a true 3.5x5.5), but don't double it up before you install it or you may not be able to wedge the thicker block in place. Install one, then install the second, sistering it to the first.
This blocking should be sufficient to support the non-bearing partition wall. One last item:
Though your subfloor/underlay/cement board sandwich will be plenty strong, you may still want to install additional support...say a 2x4 on edge...between the blocks, and running next to and parallel to the sole plate on your now-floating partition wall. This will give just a little bit more support to the subfloor where it meets the sole plate.
I hope all that makes sense...don't forget to measure what lumber you have and adjust the layout accordingly. Good luck with whatever you do.
great solution Mongo i hope ricky can get in there to do it. he can just through nail or screw from the open joist in the bathroom no need to toe screw/nail.
A pain indeed Mongo, Thanks you guys for the suggestions, I'll let you know how I made out when I'm done (and after the Tequila hangover wears off!)
Mongo.....you rock dude.you definatlly da man...if your ever in NY I could use a good man like you...be well...AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Rick, where the walls run parallel to the joist put a block(headout) on each end as close to the perpendicular walls as possible then put a joist under the old flooring so it's half on and half off , then install your subfloor, you could even double the joist if you want a wider "ledge" for nailing. hope you get what I'm saying! I think you do
Geoff
Hey Geoff, Can you explain the block/headout to me so I'm sure I'm thinking what your thinking? Mongo had a good idea also.
Thanks Rick
Hey Rick, yea, think of a head- out for a toilet or similiar plumbing, you're just adding a joist in the middle of the existing bay which has the non-bearing wall running down the middle of it. You block or "head-out" the added joist at some point where you can still reach to install a block at either end of the new joist. You'll probably have to toenail the blocks, but you might be able to get a joist hanger in there as well , maybe not , you're call. Either way you can install a hanger on the head- outs to accept the new joist.
Hope I didn't make it any more confusing,
Geoff
Geoff's solution is the kind of thing I was thinking of. If you have compressed air available, this sort of thing is a natural for palm nailers. I'd do it with joist hangers. First, for either a headout or joist, cut the piece of wood and check that it fits (or pieces if you're going to sister two). Then put the joist hangers in place, but nail only the far sides of them. You can then bend down the near side of the hangers just enough to get the wood in. Push the wood and the near side of the hangers firmly into their final position, and nail them home. If you sistered two joists, nail them together.
Hopefully you can do all this without having to mess up the ceiling downstairs. It sure helps to keep the rest of the family less unhappy about the disruption. If it's a lath and plaster ceiling, you may have to carefully break some of the plaster keys out to make room for the bottom edge of the lumber. If that makes the plaster too weak, you can also squirt some yellow woodworking glue between the lath slats and the plaster to secure it.
-- J.S.