I’m just laying tji’s today and will be laying down my 3/4″ t&g panels by tonight (hopefully). I’ve just noted that my panels, running north and south, will come up about 7 – 8 inches short of completing the full width of the floor. This is a particularly heavy and unusual structure — only 12′ 8″‘X19′ … by 40’ high — so I’ve got to be extremely careful in how everything is fastened and laid.
My question is how do I deal with that 8″ ‘strip’??? My tji’s run the short way … so my panels will run counter to this. Do I really run an 8 inch strip between full panels running the 19 ft. length on my 16OC beams? That feels too ‘flimsy’ to me. Any suggestions on how to resolve this situation?
Thanks!
Terry (in waterlogged Seattle)
Replies
I'm sure more experienced voices will be along, but while your waiting for them I'll throw in a guess.
You have three full rows to make the 12 feet.
Rip the first row so it is only, say, two feet wide instead of four feet.
Then the last row will be two feet eight inches instead of eight inches.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Great minds..............[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
EXCELLENT possibility, Rich -
thanks!
T.
Start in the middle and go in both directions if you get what I mean.
Start with a half sheet and go.
You will need more materials, but if it is that important to you...................
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
thanks Eric ... another good one.
T.
There's nothing wrong with an 8" strip at the end. Your using t&g so you'll be fine. This is normal.
Thanks Joe .... 8 lousy inches tho!
thanks All --
T.
"Thanks Joe .... 8 lousy inches tho!"
Yes, 8". Why does the 8" bother you? I'm telling you I've done this a million times and never had a problem especially with t&g.
"This is a particularly heavy and unusual structure -- only 12' 8"'X19' ... by 40' high -- so I've got to be extremely careful in how everything is fastened and laid."
What's so heavy and unusual about that?
I don't know what number you feel comfortable with but if you want to make it bigger like 16" for example than the easiest way would be to snap a line for your first row at 40" and lay your first row of plywood down and then your last row will be 16" and then snap a line and cut off the 8" off your first row.
Yes, 8". Why does the 8" bother you? I'm telling you I've done this a million times and never had a problem especially with t&g.
In order to actually get the full 19' run with the benefit of t&g though I'd hafta cut the tongue edge off of 3 full sheets! You see? I'm going to end up with a full 19' 'groove' running along one side. In order to 'fit' that 8" strip into that groove for the full 19' I'll have to cut off the tongue edge ... a little 8" edge from 3 1/2 full panels.
Any 'solution' to this???
T.
Newbuilder, now that you've added this additional post, I now know what your motivation is: you don't want to cut 8" off 3 full sheets, just to get the tongue and groove to mate up.
I applaud your desires to conserve materials....I'm cut from the same cloth!
You also expressed alarm about doing something that might be flimsy. Again, I work in the same spirit, but you shouldn't ask someone that consistently overbuilds anything....they probably would have a different opinion about some of my methods.
Anyways to answer your question....you do have choices!
The easiest choice is to simply buy the extra sheets and cut them, then make shelves out of the 40" drops! You've already received several variations of how to configure your layout, but they all involve using those extra two or three sheets.
If you're like me, you'll probably want to save on those two sheets or three sheets.
The other options force you to evaluate your actual needs regarding your flooring finishes. Some of my next suggestions might not be appropriate.
If I was framing a house for myself and was trying to maximize my savings, I'd probably start out with a 4" piece and end with a four inch piece. I'd be saving three full sheets. I'd have to evaluate the needs of the plywood sheating to determine if there was any compelling reason to run the plywood under the walls in a continuous manner. In my locality, there usually isn't any compelling reason other than it's customary and normally easier and therefore faster.
If I'm framing in a tract that is know to send short lumber loads, using the above technique might be necessary to complete a house with the shipped lumber. In those "chintzy" subs, I'd probably just insert a 1 x 4 starter board and finish with plywood cutoffs. If the builder is ultra chintzy, I'd probably not have enough 1x4, so I'd use plywood cutoffs on both front and back!
This technique puts a joint under the drywall line. Technically, it would require blocking to support the plywood between the joists, but practically speaking no one really walks and puts pressure in the last few inches near a wall, so it really won't make a difference if it's carpeting, tile or wood floor.
Your other choice is to block under the joints that aren't tongue and groove. This uses 19' of dimension lumber (2x4 will work fine) but it meets the APA for installing t&g subfloors. It's a pain and labor intensive but if your labor is free, you could accomplish this using the lumber cribbing....
Those are the alternatives. Pick your poison.
blue
"This is a particularly heavy and unusual structure -- only 12' 8"'X19' ... by 40' high -- so I've got to be extremely careful in how everything is fastened and laid."
What's so heavy and unusual about that?
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Joe - - - Thirteen by nineteen and forty feet high is unusual. Maybe you see that goin up every day ... but around here we don't. It's 'heavy' because the foundation had to be overpoured (over 22 c. yds) and it's extremely 'overbuilt' compared to any 'normal' structure. Eleven 6X6 posts on the ground floor attached to 1" bolts each buried 28" deep into the foundation .... joined with the largest simpson holddowns made. This overemphasis on holddown and tortion and overturn prevention is continued all the way up through the fourth floor with multiplse holddowns and boltthroughs floor by floor. All of this was required for permitting and every permit engineer downtown said they'd never seen anything like it before. Engineered for quake and wind. So, again, maybe it's just unusual for these parts ... but to me it's "heavy and unusual".
=============================================
Blue - - - Thanks for the rundown .. I truly appreciate it. It may sound odd .. but I really love to come up with solutions that aren't in the books .. and what occured to me was that if I went ahead and cut the plywood edge off for the first 8' strip .. .then I could cut the nest 8' strip to size and use finish-nails every 6" or so along the edge opposite the groove. Their head shape is perfect for fitting into that groove and that would certainly suffice strength-wise to hold it solid. May cut them off at about 3/4 inch and drill little holding-holes along the plywood-edge then dab em with PLW before inserting. Sounds OK, dontcha think? Beats shoring it all up from underneath!
Thanks much Joe and Blue! Huck ... to me this conversation's not ridiculous ... it's really essential. I'm not a 'regular builder', and I'm not you. I'm seeing if I can build a complete, freestanding structure from the ground up from start to finish singlehandedly. ((everything, that is, except aspects of the foundation)) So no .. I didn't look at the plans in advance and realize the 8". Again, we're not all you out here. Thank God some here seem to realize that. I'm glad you've got the Twain quote at the bottom of your post ... at least in terms of that particular rant of yours .. it sheds some valuable light.
Terry.
Thanks! Go for that finish nail solution every 6", sounds like a winner! "he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
I would use a slot cutter on the 8" strips and start with those. How many stories in your 40'?
I would use a slot cutter on the 8" strips and start with those. How many stories in your 40'?
**********************************
Too late for that ... i'm already nailed down across the span ... the 'strip' I'll end up with will face a slotted edge.
The element of this that has increased my anxiety is that this means that a very heavily reinforced wall will sit on a strip that will be ever so slightly 'tilted' by the slightly higher squash blocks running along beneath it. But then .. I'm (obviously) anal like that.
There are four stories ... a ground floor with 10 ft ceiling that enters into another larger grnd floor room to the side ... then the 'tower' goes up with a 2nd, 3rd and 4th flr of 8 (or so) ft high each ... about 39+ ft ... covered decks in two directions on the 3rd and 4th floors ...then a flat roof garden. I'm at the top of an urban hill .. so the view will be pretty amazing.
It's just fun .. I really enjoy building. Maybe I'll live there for a year and then rent it out and travel or something.
T.
This sounds like an interesting house. Does it have an elevator, or is it strictly for the physically fit? ;-)
-- J.S.
This sounds like an interesting house. Does it have an elevator, or is it strictly for the physically fit? ;-)
John,
Yeah .. thanks ... I think it is an interesting project. No ... no elevator. Outside stairs to the second floor.... inside stairs up to the third .. and then a very skinny little set of inside stairs (space saving) to the fourth floor ... and simple steep stairs from the deck to the flat roof-top. Though I've thought about it and know where an elevator could go eventually if it seems necessary.
The ground floor is two rooms ... a large side room and an entry room, under the tower, with a full bathroom. Sort of a 'waiting room with restroom and large attached office' for someone. A ground floor meeting-space of some kind at least.
It's like nothin people normally build. But everyone who's seen the plans seems excited about it. There's something ... 'fun' .. about it. (Although, the neighbors are a bit leary.)
Terry
Outside stairs to the second floor...? Are they open to the weather? If not, would it be easy to retrofit some kind of protection? We have a few buildings where I work that only have open stairs on the outside, which is inconvenient when it rains.
-- J.S.
Outside stairs to the second floor...? Are they open to the weather? If not, would it be easy to retrofit some kind of protection? We have a few buildings where I work that only have open stairs on the outside, which is inconvenient when it rains.
John,
I'll have to think about this and consider the possibilities. But one thing that comes to mind is, I donno where you are, but we're talking about Seattle here. Rain is never an issue in Seattle.
;-)
Actually, Newbuilder, I forgot to mention a forth option! Doh!
I did this on one job, many, many, many years ago. I used to be anal and would do weird things.
I didn't want to do the blocking because I don't like how it looks. I didn't want to waste three sheets either. I didn't want to have an unsupported seam, no matter how close it was to the wall. So...none of my suggestions would have worked.
So...I simply pulled out my router and made new tongues on some rips! It worked like a charm and I didn't have any waste.
blue
That's what I said, almost.
I didn't want to do the blocking because I don't like how it looks. I didn't want to waste three sheets either. I didn't want to have an unsupported seam, no matter how close it was to the wall. So...none of my suggestions would have worked. So...I simply pulled out my router and made new tongues on some rips! It worked like a charm and I didn't have any waste. blue
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This is an egg-salent idea ... unfortunately I don't have a router. Used to .. but i never used it and it rusted up loooooong ago. But yes ... to simply cut one's own tongues with a router along the edge would be the obviously most elegent answer the situation.
again, thanks -
T.
Newbuilder, you can't use the "no router" routine. You can easily cut tongues with your power saw. It takes a little skill or a little rigging. I've cut lots of tongues and grooves and rabbets by eye with my saw. Ive neveer done it on 19' of plywood, but I would if I ever got a hankerin' to do so. It's not that hard to do.
blue
> You can easily cut tongues with your power saw. It takes a little skill or a little rigging.
It would be a good EZ Smart application.
-- J.S.
Whats EZ smart?
It's a guide system for saws, routers, etc. They have a web site:
http://www.eurekazone.com
and a big discussion group on another forum:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org
Taunton prefers that we take EZ Smart discussions over there.
-- J.S.
Edited 2/15/2006 7:25 pm ET by JohnSprung
Taunton prefers that we take EZ Smart discussions over there.
huh. I wonder what the issue is? I dont see how discussing this or that tool could impact negatively on FH.
Thanks for the links! I'll definitely check them out. Blue is right, of course, that cutting tongues from the panels would really have been the best way to go ... but no router and no experience with such 'finessed' cutting left me thinking ... nails ... :-)
T.
why ask for advice when you are going to do it you way anyhow
and if you are having probs with a simple floor imagine a simple wall
Toolpouchguy, I think that was a cheap shot.
Newbuilder took a bit of advice and used his own ingenuity to accomplish what he thought was necessary. I don't see anything wrong with that: hear the options, weigh the options, then make a decision. Too bad we finally gave the right answer but it was too late...for floor one.
blue
ya sorry
Taunton prefers that we take EZ Smart discussions over there.
John.
Mr Tonton said it's ok, just don't use the forum to take orders.
I think the Taunton stuff. (do you think Tonton and Taunton are related?)
was /are very nice to me - us, and the ez smart.
YCF Dino
Thanks much Joe and Blue! Huck ... to me this conversation's not ridiculous ... it's really essential. I'm not a 'regular builder', and I'm not you. I'm seeing if I can build a complete, freestanding structure from the ground up from start to finish singlehandedly.
Than listen to the guys that build for a living.
"Again, I work in the same spirit, but you shouldn't ask someone that consistently overbuilds anything"Blue,Your responce to him was to is post to me with him asking me about what to do. Your repsonce above, were you referring to me?Joe Carola
Joe, the correct statement was:
"You also expressed alarm about doing something that might be flimsy. Again, I work in the same spirit, but you shouldn't ask someone that consistently overbuilds anything....they probably would have a different opinion about some of my methods."
That statement qualifies my response. For those in a forum like this that thinks I'm crazy, my suggestions might be less than desireable. I tend to do things to accomplish many goals. I'd accept an unblocked seam near the wall, but ANYONE that tends to overbuild everything wouldnt think of accepting something like that.
If you see yourself as an overbuilder, that's okay. I won't accuse you or anyone of being an overbuilder, or a hack until I walk their jobs. I can classify myself. I'm a minimilist with a tendency toward minimization of effort and most efficient use of materials as possible. That's my nature and I often do things that cost me more time and save somebody else's materials. That tells me that I place a higher value on the preservation of materials than I do my own pocketbook.
If you don't see yourself as an overbuilder, then that statement didn't apply to you in any way, even though you still might have a different opinion about some of my methods!
blue
"That statement qualifies my response. For those in a forum like this that thinks I'm crazy, my suggestions might be less than desireable. I tend to do things to accomplish many goals. I'd accept an unblocked seam near the wall, but ANYONE that tends to overbuild everything wouldnt think of accepting something like that."Blue,I guess the real issue is who/what determines who is Overbuilding and who is Underbuilding?Joe Carola
I guess the real issue is who/what determines who is Overbuilding and who is Underbuilding?
Time.
blue
You think before our time or after our time?Joe Carola
In order to actually get the full 19' run with the benefit of t&g though I'd hafta cut the tongue edge off of 3 full sheets! You see? I'm going to end up with a full 19' 'groove' running along one side. In order to 'fit' that 8" strip into that groove for the full 19' I'll have to cut off the tongue edge ... a little 8" edge from 3 1/2 full panels. Any 'solution' to this???Yes, just by 9 sheats and you'll have 6 full sheats with three 3' pieces which will be 7-1/2 sheats so that's 8 and your ninth sheat you can make your 8" rips and then just add blocking every bay at the joints since you wont have a tongue.Joe Carola
Actually, it will be more than 8" wide anyway - You don't get a full 48" face with T&G plywood.
They only show up when there's food on the table.
This is a ridiculous conversation. You start with a row of full-width sheets, and you end up with an 8" rip. You "just noticed" this? You said it was 12'8" by 19'. So when you saw that on the plans, you didn't realize you would end up with an 8" rip? You didn't know plywood comes in 4' widths? Now you're ready to lay your plywood, and all of a sudden you're worrying about the 8" ripped strip being "too flimsy"? The tongue of which is locked into the groove along one edge, and supported by rim joist along the other edge? Come on.
Buy the 10 sheets of plywood, lay 'em down, nail 'em down, rip 'em as needed, and carry on. Next question?
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
I don't worry about a 8" rip ,other than the waste. But i would use the 40" rips as starters on the next floor. And the 16" drops of that floor gets used up as stair risers.
James, I would also use the 40'' drops as the starter course on the upstairs, providing there is one. This poster didn't indicate that he had a second floor, nor did he give any dimensions.
I also would use the 16'' rip for risers if we didn't have 1x8 white pine shipped on every job for risers though. The 16'' rips would just get scrapped.
blue
James, I just read that Newbuilder is going to have three floors!
That means that using the drops to start the next floor will be the best solution. At the end of the second floor, he'll have some more drops to start the third. It would appear that he would have a 24" rip left to fill out the third floor. If he's thrifty, he can split a sheet and create a tongue or block under the open joints. He'll still end up with one wasted rip, which is the best possible scenario. That beats adding 1x under every wall!
blue
That means that using the drops to start the next floor will be the best solution. At the end of the second floor, he'll have some more drops to start the third. It would appear that he would have a 24" rip left to fill out the third floor. If he's thrifty, he can split a sheet and create a tongue or block under the open joints.... blue
Ya know .. you're absolutely right. Had this come up right off the bat I'd have simply ripped 'em and continued on in the knowledge that I'd use 'em floor by floor. Now, of course, it's a "why didn't I see such and OBviouse thing!" experience. It's my fault in that nobody knew I was talking about a four floor structure... and it didn't occur to me that that was any factor.
Well ... I actually dealt with it by creating 'tongues' out of the smallest double headed nails available. I believe they're about 2 3/8 inches long. I braced my ply edge up ... quickly drilled a straight line of sinker holes EXACTLY in the center of the center of the 5 plys ... dropped my double-headers in ... pounded them the last 1/4 inch that I purposefully didn't drill. The FIRST of the two heads bites neatly into the outer 1 millimeter of wood to brace it perfectly ... and the SECOND .. outer ... head of the double-head is a wee bit smaller than a normal nail .. and thicker .. and it is a PERFECT fit into the groove of 3/4 t&g sturdifloor! When carried it up and knocked it into place it bit right in for a perfect lock ... and even MUCH stronger than a normoal wooden 'tongue'. I'm delighted with it.
I greatly appreciate the help and discussions here.
Thanks!
T.
Here's one
View Imagethat has a footprint of about 850 sf, is three stories high, and its height is only 35 feet.
Show us what yours looks like.
Here is a view of its main floor.
View Image
And a view looking up.
View Image
And one more, looking sort of across and down.
View Image
It's beautiful Stinger. It wouldn't pass code, but it looks great. I don't think anyone here could sell it though with that rail.
blue
here's what we were left with on our last sub-floor.. so we took out our 1973 Ingersoll Rand ( Millers Falls ) router and ran a new groove...
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 2/18/2006 8:04 am ET by MikeSmith
curious, what type of bit did you use ?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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This pic is so utterly similar to the remaining corner that I had ... that i actually gasped when i saw it. weird. Sounds like I should look into a router; last (working) one I owned was in the early 80's!
T.
but you can teach an olde dogge nu tricks.... notice how gene embedded those pics ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Embedding pics isn't really a good thing for those on dialups. It forces them to download all the pics, even if they are too large for their systems.
What is that blocking and string for in that picture? You guys are block and string happy!
By the way, how many sheets of plywood did you save by using the routing technique?
blue
since no one on our crew has eyes as good as yours, we string and block everything
then i know the guys have plumbed and lined everything.. a very easy quality control check
i think we got five pieces we needed out of one sheet.... so , theoretically we saved 4 sheets.. of course we could have simply blocked the joint...
sphere: that was a groove bit .. half of a tongue & groove set.. after fiddling with it, i found i could get any profile the sheathing guys haveMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks..I couldn't see ya standing the sheet up on edge and using a straight bit or hauling a router table on site.
Come to think of it, I have a wedge T&G bit set, just never thought of the subfloor use.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Mike, I know why you string and block things. I just don't know what you've strung an blocked on the plywood deck?!!!
blue
i remember now what pic you were referring to... that was the band joist on the gable end .. i strung it to line it from corner to corner as we were laying the end sheetsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"i strung it to line it from corner to corner as we were laying the end sheets"Mike,Now I'm curious. I always line my walls or have my guys line the walls because those sighting days are over and some of the guys when they sight the walls look like they were drunk and then I brace but what do you mean line your plywood sheats/decking from corner to corner. You don't just cut them to fit or run them long and snap a line and cut later?Joe Carola
Edited 2/18/2006 1:37 pm ET by Framer
the walls were already plumbed, lined & braced..
but the second floor 2x12 band joist was still curving and flopping .. so we lined it as we nailed it... most of the time we just don't nail the subfloor to the band joist... then go back , snap a line .. cut it and push & pull the band joist into position
but you have to fight the glue by the time you get to that point..
if you block & string the gable end , you can see where the band joist is supposed to be and just nail it as you go
View Image
you can see the block & line in the top of the pic... it was there after we nailed the first sheet in the starting corner
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 2/18/2006 1:58 pm ET by MikeSmith