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Subfloor under vinyl

| Posted in Construction Techniques on June 13, 2004 03:46am

Hello

I’m getting ready to apply my subflooring in Utility room and bath, on 3/4″ Edge Gold, over 9.5″ TJI’s 16″ OC, over 24″ Crawl space. Toilet flanges were raised 1/4″ when installed. I’m planning on using 1/4″ masonite. Here’s my questions.

1. Would you glue/adhere down the masonite to the Edge Gold? If so, what would you use?

2. What fasteners would you use? Now, I know NOBODY would use galv drywall screws…right? But I want the heads to go flush and stay there so that I won’t see their little heads trying to push up the vinyl in a few years.

3. How would you handle the butt seams of the masonite to ensure the seams won’t show thru the vinyl?

Thanks for all suggestions

BruceM

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Replies

  1. User avater
    IMERC | Jun 13, 2004 04:04am | #1

    Skip the masonite and go with 1/4" underlayment....

    Glue....

    Narrow crown stapler with a high density schedual...

    Wood grain filler...

    Vynal...

    and now is your chance to DC after that comment about piffin screws even if they are up scale

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming....

                                                                       WOW!!!   What a Ride!

    1. ken1jr1 | Jun 15, 2004 02:54am | #3

      Bruce,

      As a flooring installer, I agree with some of the points made by the other professionals here but I also disagree with a few points & have some other suggestions.

      1. Absolutely- DO NOT USE MASONITE! It is not a recommended subfloor for vinyl floor installations from ANY manufacturer. I prefer 1/4", exterior grade plywood for my installations. These days I don't recommend Luan from any source that doesn't offer a written warranty against delamination & staining. For the extra couple of dollars, plywood gives me piece of mind.

      2. There is no need to glue the new subfloor down to the existing 3/4" subfloor you have. It is also not recommended.

      3. There is no need to screw the subfloor down. The floor can be hand-nailed with galvanized, non-staining nails or stapled with narrow-crown galvanized staples. I use staples & haven't hand-nailed a floor in many years. The staples are faster and more efficient. Make sure the pressure setting is set to drive the staple slightly below the surface. I use a stapling schedule of 2-3" at the edges & 4-5" in the field.

      4. The butt joints of the subfloor should be sanded, if they are too high & then patched with a quality floor patch (these days I use either Ardex or Mapei- both are latex fortified so they don't crack with any floor movement.) Once the patch is dry, I re-sand the areas (using a light grit paper) to make sure everything is smooth.An easy way to check all the staple heights is to run a flat trowel or wide taping knife acroos the floor. Any areas where it hits is too high and needs to be set deeper.

      The staple marks in the field of the sheets doesn't need to to patched as they are slightly counter-sunk & will not show through the vinyl. DO NOT use wood filler for the subfloor as it could stain the vinyl or interfer with the glue adhesion.

      Ken

      1. remodelerdw | Jun 15, 2004 05:49am | #4

        Ken,

        I understood two things for vinyl underlayment:

        1.  It needs to be smooth as a baby's butt

        2.  My vinyl guy screams if I don't use ring shanks, he thinks staples are going to pull up.

        #1 I believe, #2 I don't know.  Staples don't pull up?

        remodeler

      2. BruceM16 | Jun 15, 2004 06:50am | #5

        Hey Ken...thanks for the response

        You're the second one to say to not use masonite. Why? this seems to be an ideal underlayment...its hard (less resistant to dents if something like a bowling ball is dropped), absolutely flat and smooth...but not sure about moisture resistance.

        Other than vinyl manufacturer's don't recommend it, would you happen to know why?

        thanks

        Bruce

        1. User avater
          IMERC | Jun 15, 2004 08:11am | #6

          A cup of coffee will destroy a truck load of it....

          It's made out of paper.

          It's a BS product from a BS company...

          The glue will seperate the top layer... and yur vynal will lift...

          Spawls and blooms when you nail or screw it... and they're impossible to clean them up to flatness and keep themthat way...

          The spawls and blooms will always continue to seperate and telegraph thru the vynal....

          The garbage is fragile...

          Fasteners will pull thru from foot traffic...

          It' dent resistant this week.... and for this week only....

          If you need a product that can and will metamorphous... Masonite is it...

          Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming....                                                                   WOW!!!   What a Ride!

          1. ken1jr1 | Jun 15, 2004 11:17pm | #8

            IMERC,

            I couldn't have said it any better than you did about Masonite. I believe you covered every aspect of why that product is just not made for certain things- vinyl installation is one.

            Remodeler,

            I am extremely glad to hear that someone other then another vinyl installer understands & agrees that the subfloor needs to be smooth, flat & clean.

            As for the nails, I know for a fact that ring shanks won't pull up (have you ever had the joy of pulling one of those nailed subfloors up?) However, in all honesty, I use staples & as long as the pressure is set correctly and you install the sheets properly- they will not come up.

            Am I correct in understanding that you install the subfloor & your

            installers lay the floor? If that's the case and someone other then myself was installing the subfloor for a vinyl floor I was going to install- I could see where they would want the floor nailed.

            A very simple rule I follow for vinyl installations is:

            If I don't install the subfloor then I don't trust it. I hate to be that way but it has been proven to me over & over- and the liability tends to fall on the floor installer.

            Ken

      3. User avater
        IMERC | Jun 15, 2004 08:13am | #7

        I think this is yours....

         

        Bruce, As a flooring installer, I agree with some of the points made by the other professionals here but I also disagree with a few points & have some other suggestions.

        1. Absolutely- DO NOT USE MASONITE! It is not a recommended subfloor for vinyl floor installations from ANY manufacturer. I prefer 1/4", exterior grade plywood for my installations. These days I don't recommend Luan from any source that doesn't offer a written warranty against delamination & staining. For the extra couple of dollars, plywood gives me piece of mind.

        2. There is no need to glue the new subfloor down to the existing 3/4" subfloor you have. It is also not recommended.

        3. There is no need to screw the subfloor down. The floor can be hand-nailed with galvanized, non-staining nails or stapled with narrow-crown galvanized staples. I use staples & haven't hand-nailed a floor in many years. The staples are faster and more efficient. Make sure the pressure setting is set to drive the staple slightly below the surface. I use a stapling schedule of 2-3" at the edges & 4-5" in the field.

        4. The butt joints of the subfloor should be sanded, if they are too high & then patched with a quality floor patch (these days I use either Ardex or Mapei- both are latex fortified so they don't crack with any floor movement.) Once the patch is dry, I re-sand the areas (using a light grit paper) to make sure everything is smooth.An easy way to check all the staple heights is to run a flat trowel or wide taping knife acroos the floor. Any areas where it hits is too high and needs to be set deeper. The staple marks in the field of the sheets doesn't need to to patched as they are slightly counter-sunk & will not show through the vinyl. DO NOT use wood filler for the subfloor as it could stain the vinyl or interfer with the glue adhesion.

        Ken

        Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming....                                                                   WOW!!!   What a Ride!

  2. woodroe | Jun 13, 2004 04:41am | #2

    Use 1/4" luan underlayment. This plywood is made with no voids you see in typical plywood. We staple ours down with narrow crown staples with staples 4"-6" apart in the field (that's all over the field, not just at the joists and 3" apart on the perimeter. The vinyl installer usually fills all the staple holes when he uses his leveling compound on the seams. Filling over the staples is a quick operation with a swipe of a putty knife over the whole floor. I suspect this serves two purposes. First, and foremost, it identifies any staples that may be proud of the surface and second, it isolates the staple from the vinyl, (lest a rust spot should appear).

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