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Discussion Forum

Subs Insurance

| Posted in Business on November 6, 2002 09:32am

Thank you for your response in my other post Marcello, it was very helpful.

   Another question:   I operate a LLC in NY with a partner and we both have a waiver from the Workers Compensation Board.  We now are going to hire Subs, and besides requiring them to have their own liability insurance we are not sure about workers compensation.  If they are operating their own business, ie. Plumber working alone, and also have a workers Comp waiver, then can I assume that workers comp is not an issue?  I will call my accountant and the local workers comp board to find out the requirements in this situation.  I do know that I will 1099  the sub.  Just like to hear from anyone else with experience and knowledge on this subject.  Thanks to all who reply.

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  1. RW | Nov 07, 2002 01:46am | #1

    My experience- if you know the guy and it really is a one man op, then his insurance certificate probably doesn't even comment on workmans comp. The times I see the term "workmans comp not in effect" or similar are on the guys where sometimes they have workers, sometimes not, and the cert is sent when the ins. company is not covering for workmans comp. I don't have a red flag unless a guy I know is alone shows with helpers of dubious origin, and actually, that hasn't come up yet. I'm solo, and mine doesn't mention it either.

  2. 69firebird | Nov 07, 2002 04:27am | #2

    I am in NY also. Here in Westchester (stresschester) you can not hold a home improvement license with out WC or a waiver from them. If you hire any subs at all you also must carry WC. Sort of a redundancy thing or legal extortion depending on how you look at it. I say this because you should just try to get a waiver from WC.......you want a what?????

    As far as I can tell NY law has not changed from the days when if you are a sole proprietor or whatever with no employees you are not required by law to carry WC.

    I am being told by the "authoritys" that they have a "new interpretation of existing law". Yeah, right. They say I need to carry WC in case the sub who already showed proof of insurance actually doesn't have a policy in affect. If anyone understands that any better than I do please chime in!

    There is a way around it though. Many of my clients have a plumber or electrician who is already familiar with the house and I just let the HO handle paying them, I do the coordination and supervision. Works great for me and I rarely have a bad trades person to deal with. Or pay the subs cash or ask the HO to pay them and deduct that amount from the contract.

    Just another reason government should stay the hell out of our business. The Westchester County Dept of Consumer Protection is the Home Improvement License issuer. No test or any important like that, mostly give us $250.00 for a two year license and a bumper sticker with the county supervisors name on it. They provide no service to anyone other than to verify the fact that a contractor is licensed or not. They will not help out a homeowner who has been burnt or put forth much effort to stop unlicensed contractors from advertising or operating in the county.

    If I sound sour it is because I am. If I had the money and time I would take them to court. Every week I can find at least fifty violations of the advertising law that states a contractor must list his HI # in all print ads and material. They tell me they don't have the resouces to go after every on. Where the hell is my $250.00?? Phoooey! I would love to get together with a nice group of other legitamate contractors and squeeze thier nuts!

    Eric

    BTW How hard was it for you to get a waiver. I was told by WC if you have anything even suggestive of the fact that you are a contractor in the name of your business you can just about forget it.

    1. SunnySlopes | Nov 07, 2002 06:05am | #3

       Eric,

       If I remember correctly this is the form that we used to waive the WC.  I do recall that we had to go down to the local WC office and file in person with proof of the LLC, corporate seal,  and personal ID.  http://www.wcb.state.ny.us/content/main/forms/db212_3.pdf

        We are located just south of you in Nassau County and the requirements for a contractors license are the same as yours.  Our County also requires WC for a license, but not if you can receive a waiver from the state.  Thanks for your reply. 

      1. dw40 | Dec 05, 2002 07:12am | #4

        I looked into WC here in NYC and was told that as I sole proprietor, the state fund woiuldn't even issue it to me. The way I have worked it with a client I have here (2 bedroom coop renovation) is that they pulled the permits under their homeowner's insurance and they pay the subs, who must all provide proof of liability and WC (WC only if they are not a sole proprietor). I do all the dirty work, hooking them up with reliable subs I know, getting multiple bids for each trade...blah, blah, blah for a percentage. It requires more from the client, both in "standing around city buildings" time and percieved risk (though everyone who needs to be insured is insured, if something happens its their rates, not yours that go up), but when I told them how much I would it would cost for me to carry GC insurance, and how that would impact the price of the job, they decided it was worth it.

        Don W

        1. xMikeSmith | Dec 05, 2002 03:07pm | #5

          you guys are funny... how long have you been in business? why don't you just make up your minds that you ARE in business and figure out how to make your operation run like a business... you know complying wtih the intent of the WC law ,  protecting your workers, the Homeowners, your family.. etc.

          if you can't carry the proper business insurances , you oughta go work for someone who can..Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          1. 69firebird | Dec 05, 2002 03:54pm | #6

            Mike,

            Come to New York and give it a whirl. For those of us who CHOOSE to be sole proprietors with no employees it is tough. We are at the bottom of the chain when it comes to being able to procure reasonably priced insurance.

            We also probably have the highest percentage of Craftsman who are not in the business for the sole motivation of profit and therefor are constantly looking for creative ways to keep costs down, not circumvent the law.

            Or maybe I should just come to work for you......whats the going rate for a reliable highly skilled all around lead capable guy out there?

            Eric

          2. xMikeSmith | Dec 06, 2002 01:26am | #7

            one of my best friends spent 25 years as a slate roofer & copper guy in westchester... he always had WC....Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          3. xMikeSmith | Dec 06, 2002 01:28am | #8

            ( employees )   $18  to $25...

            the independents get $35Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          4. DaveHeinlein | Dec 06, 2002 02:58am | #9

            I'm sole proprietor doing cabinetry and millwork in NY, and I have WC through The State Insurance Fund. It does nothing for me, but anyone who works for me is covered, and contractors I sub through require me to carry it. It runs me less than$900.00/yr unless I pay my help more. Cabinetmakers-power driven machinery is 7%~

          5. Piffin | Dec 06, 2002 05:02am | #15

            Nine hundred is seven percent of only a little under thirteen grand. Is that all you make? Those cherry cabs look like they are worth more.

            You only pay on your help - part time, right?.

            Excellence is its own reward!

            "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

            The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

            --Marcus Aurelius

          6. DaveHeinlein | Dec 06, 2002 02:54pm | #29

            The 7% is what I pay for my part time help. When *audit* time comes every year, I have it broken down between fabrication and installation, which is cheaper. The 900 is the base line charge for my catagory.

          7. dw40 | Dec 06, 2002 03:02am | #10

            Well I suppose I'll take "funny" as a compliment.

            I'll tell you something else funny. It's funny how every so often there's a "Come Out of the Woodwork, Lurkers!" post from one of the more experienced and regular posters on the board, and as long as everyone is shooting the s**t about their kids and wherabouts, everything is hunky-dory. Then a guy puts a legitimate business question up and he and everyone else in the same boat receive immediate condescension and ridicule. That's hilarious.

            I cannot answer for the other guys in this thread, but after ten years as a carpenter over the last 14, I am now in year one as a business man, and no, I don't really know squat about running a business. That is why I am spending my evening hours surfing the "Business" threads of the Fine Homebuilding Forum rather than doing one of the oh, one or two other nightlife options available here in New York City.

            Did you even read the posts?

            "complying wtih the intent of the WC law , protecting your workers, the Homeowners, your family.. etc."

            I don't hear anyone trying to do anything illegal regarding WC law. Like I said in my previous post. The state fund won't even sell me workman's comp as a sole proprietor. Getting a WC waiver is not some underhanded grey-market enterprise. It's a government form. Now, maybe my circles are more colerful than I give them credit for, but I know at least a dozen one man operations here in the 5 boroughs, finish carpenters, furniture makers, architectural metal fabricators, custom glass fabricators, cabinetmakers, etc. and not one of them carries WC on themselves. It is not illegal. If it was, none of them (us) could work, due to the places this work goes into. If you think the government is something, try dealing with an Upper West Side coop board! Nobody I know carries less than $1 million in liability, and thats just to walk in the door. The homeowner, as such, is completely protected.

            I also don't read where anyone on this thread had employees to "protect". Making the leap from a one man show to an employer is a tough decision and a classic growing pain of any business in any field. I'm glad it was so easy for you. The rest of us mortals will just have to keep asking what are obviously dumb questions and hope for the best.

          8. geob21 | Dec 06, 2002 03:12am | #11

            It's common knowledge wc allows 1 exemption. Does anyone with employees actually pay for themselves?

            If so why?

          9. xMikeSmith | Dec 06, 2002 03:52am | #12

            i have employees and i cover myself.... since i am the most valuable employee our company has... 

            my rate as a Construction Supervisor is  about  $5/$100  ,  my Carps  are about  $13 / $100..

            Sole Proprietors are businesses too.. if you can't get it as a Sole Prop... then Incorporate.. as an employee of YOUR corporation , you can be covered

            as Dave mentioned above... you can get WC in NY.Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          10. geob21 | Dec 06, 2002 04:53am | #14

            Mike- I don't understand? Why do you cover yourself? If you get injured on the job doing a task that's outside normal work conditions (slip,trip, or fall) wouldn't you still pay yourself? Sueing yourself is impossible for a long term injury and under wc rules they can retrain you for ANY job to reduce long term payment.

            I see this as throwing money away, please help I don't understand?

          11. xMikeSmith | Dec 06, 2002 05:05am | #16

            and suppose i fall off the roof and never walk again ?

            do you carry disability insurance on yourself ?  neither do i..

            what is the purpose of WC ? as an employee of my corporation, why wouldn't i cover myself?   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          12. Piffin | Dec 06, 2002 05:21am | #19

            Mike,

            Sorry I had to kill you in the abover message..

            Excellence is its own reward!

            "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

            The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

            --Marcus Aurelius

          13. xMikeSmith | Dec 06, 2002 05:27am | #20

            arrrrghhhh.... when the wind blows softly across your brow, helen.. think of meMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          14. Piffin | Dec 06, 2002 05:18am | #18

            Let's suppose Mike and his buddy, Al were working without comp as two sole props side by side on a staging they erected together. Suppose Mike found most of the work they did together.

            Suppose that the staging fell over for some strange reason that was nobodies fault but that both of them were killed.

            Al knew that he was taking on his own risks and that he wasn't working for Mike or depending on him for anything.

            But Al's wife didn't see it that way. As a widow, she claims that Al was working for Mike and that Mike had always told her that he'd take good care of Al for her. She hires a power lawyer and he sues the estate for whatever it's worth, since Mike was "supposed" to be providing for things like this.

            Helen is out on a limb..

            Excellence is its own reward!

            "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

            The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

            --Marcus Aurelius

          15. geob21 | Dec 06, 2002 05:37am | #22

            Mike and piffin-

            You guys should really consult with you wc agent and get advice from  competing agents.  Do you think wc covers you forever in cases of long term or permanent injury?

            There are many ways to protect income and liability but unfortunatly wc isn't one of them.

          16. Piffin | Dec 06, 2002 05:42am | #23

            If that appearance of someone working FOR you exists, it does..

            Excellence is its own reward!

            "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

            The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

            --Marcus Aurelius

          17. xMikeSmith | Dec 06, 2002 05:49am | #24

            Geob

            i'm on my fourth agency since i got started.. this one is the best...i even had one who tried to talk me out of carrying WC on my employees ..

            as i told Tamara.. 

            25167.28 in reply to 25167.27 

            here's our rates: (Rhode Island only )

            Carps: 1 & 2 Family dwellings....$14.89 / $100

            Clerical Office.....$0.44 / $100

            Contractor Construction Superintendent.... $3.82 / $100

            these are then modified for an Experience ( less 15% )  and a Schedule mod ( less 5%) so deduct about 20% from the above rates so we actually pay $11.91 for Carps.

            the Const. Supt. is allowed to use tools.. so why wouldn't i cover myself for that...

            sure, you can get Disabilty... but the rates are out of sight, and they are not deductible under all circumstances...

            are you incorporated  ?

            Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          18. geob21 | Dec 06, 2002 05:48pm | #31

            Mike-

            Yes I am incorporated.

            I don't look at w/c as a disability policy. Have you ever hired an employee from w/c with a permenant disability? I have, I had one empolyee (ex UPS) work for 14 years never making a penny more then the day of his injury.

          19. xMikeSmith | Dec 06, 2002 07:12pm | #32

            WC is an insurance policy... it's implementation depends on your state, if you have a labor proactive WC board, the workers get better protection,, if they are management proactive.. the worker gets screwed.. if the board leans too much towards the worker, or if there is too much fraud in the system , the insurance companies will stop writing in that state.. which is what happened in RI about 10 years ago..

            WC was reformed and the laws tightened..I think the same thing happened in Maine.. now if I was a worker in Texas, or Arizona.. I 'd be concerned... but here, under current law.. WC is good protection for the workers

            but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          20. roucru | Dec 06, 2002 09:54pm | #33

            From what I have been told our rates would be $21.00+per $100.00 for roofing and about $18.00+ for carps. You have to breakdown what you do roofing, carp. etc. Then if you have subs they count in also. For a small company WC for maybe three employees could be $15,000.00 + a year. I can see where a company can become insurance poor real fast. Health insurance on one guy is around $300.00 a month. Now for three guys that would be $900.00 a month for a grand total of $10,800.00. Insurance for the employees now is $25,800.00 a year or $2,150.00 a month. I know it is all part of being in business. This also doesn't include liability or vacation time.

            Now take someone that is out on his own and doesn't have the overhead. He is a sub and works on his own or hires someone to help with the "hard" stuff. His cost are lower, thus he cost the homeowner less..

            Now you have a "BIG" company that has high overhead, but they can do all the above with really no problem. The big company usually does high end more profitable stuff (maybe?)

            My point is the middle of the road GC has a harder time. That is just my two cents with only being around all this for the last four years. You guys have much more experience and I appreciate your help. I have to say one thing that has helped Lars is being so versitle in the "down times" and the "good times"

            Thanks for the input Mike!Tamara

          21. xMikeSmith | Dec 07, 2002 12:31am | #34

            Tamara.. i know it's hard.. from personal experience.

            being a versatile remodeler / GC does give a lot of flexibility...

            one successful lumber yard owner told me he never made a nickel until he started thinking every day how he could make money.. i try to emulate that.. even though it is like trying to drain the swamp when you're up to your keester in alligators..

            obviously, Lars has the mechanics of the thing under control... so, the room for improvement must be in the marketing, employee motivation, and business ends..

            get ahold of a copy of "Guerilla Marketing"... and then start thinking of how to put a WNC twist to it...seems to me  a lot of money people with disposeable income are moving to WNC.. they need contractors they can trust... might as well be youMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          22. Piffin | Dec 06, 2002 06:01am | #25

            I could LIVE on what they want for disability insurance on me..

            Excellence is its own reward!

            "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

            The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

            --Marcus Aurelius

          23. fdampier5 | Dec 06, 2002 07:05am | #26

            I hire occasional part time subs and ask them for a copy of their insurance since I don't carry any insurance myself.  I've worried though, some of the copies of insurance seem very old and ?  What happens if they provide me with a copy, something happens and they either  don't  really have or let it lapse?

               I'm in the same problem anyway aren't I? 

          24. Piffin | Dec 06, 2002 07:21am | #27

            What they are supposed to do is have the company send an endorsement page to you for verification. I have them fill out a form with a blank for the WC# and the cont liability # but it is the endosement sent straight from the company that counts for my audit.

            I know wone guy who will sign up and put a deposit on a contractor's liability policy to get the page sent and then let his payments lapse. He's gone through five insurance comapnies and running out.

            Here in Maine, as long as a man is working directly for the owner of the property, he is not required by law to have WC on himself but his widow could still hold the property owner at the end of a gun if he dies on site..

            Excellence is its own reward!

            "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

            The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

            --Marcus Aurelius

          25. bearmon | Dec 06, 2002 07:24am | #28

            frenchy, don't take a copy from the sub, but rather have them call their agent and have the agent fax or mail you a certificate made out with your name on it.  No cost to you or your sub, just a phone call.  Its done all the time.Bear

          26. DaveHeinlein | Dec 06, 2002 03:00pm | #30

            Here in NY, if the ins. lapses, the company sends out a notice to any company or contractor listed. Also, the listed party would be named on the ins. voucher he shows you.

          27. xMikeSmith | Dec 06, 2002 04:02am | #13

            hey, quit 'cher whining....who said anything about it being easy ?

            i've been in business for myself since '75... every year was a struggle.. it didn't start getting better until i decided to stop feeling sorry for myself and make it into a real business..

            guess what ..it got better.

            go get yer attitude checkedMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          28. Cole | Dec 06, 2002 05:11am | #17

            Mike,

            Not carrying comp does not take away from someones standing as a legitimate business in my opinion.  I worked for some a***hole for 15 years as the general mgr and estimator, and he carried comp on me at an administrative level only.  Although I routinely worked in the field, my position was as general mgr so he was only required to carry comp on me at that rate.  BTW, that isn't why he is an a**hole.  Had I injured myself in the field, and the insurance company investigated, they probably wouldn't have paid any claim.    But I started my company 2 years ago and have not hired any full time employees yet, therefore I sure as hell am not going to carry comp insurance.  I carry full liability, auto insurance under the company, and disability on myself.  If I become injured I am covered.  My insurance company will write a comp policy the minute I hire someone, and I will have to.  For now I use subs that carry liability and comp and when I hire employees I too will carry comp on them.  I am in no way trying to get around the standard legitimate business practices, but I am not about to pay insurance premiums on a policy that is guaranteed to have zero claims.  I do believe that workers have the right to be covered, but until I have workers I will stay with my current and legitimate insurance program.

            Cole  Cole Dean

            Dean Contracting

          29. xMikeSmith | Dec 06, 2002 05:31am | #21

            chk it out cole... compare your disabiltiy premiums to the Comp premiums.. i did..

            also.. you can market WC....your competitors that don't have it can't use it as a marketing tool..

            you've got everything but WC.... y?

            are you incorporated ?  c'mon, man.. it took me 25 years to figure this stuff out.. don't let it take you as long Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

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