Its so slow here and everyone complains they have no work yet why the hell don’t guys call you back or answer emails?
I am building a 1500 sq ft addition and talked to guys about setting the trusses and framing it. He has a set of plans and knows the trusses will be here this week. Yet after two weeks he still hasn’t confirmed a price with me and let me know if he indeed is interested in the job! And this is the second guy I have talked to. I call each every day and hear the same excuse “I’ll call you back”.
Why are these guys self employed if they don’t want to work?
Maybe its me? How do you guys handle getting subs for jobs? Usually I use the same guys on each job but have been missing a framer since the last one I knew retired.
Replies
Edited 5/5/2009 9:38 am ET by RalphWicklund
Edited 5/5/2009 9:39 am ET by RalphWicklund
Ralph,
Excellent info! I knew I should have had kids!
VERY cool picture!!! That is definitely something to be proud of.
Mike
You can try to support your regular guys--however if they are shy to commit, you are better off finding someone else.
Quite often good builders can be bad builders if even temporarily.
They may be in too deep, they may be banking on or shy to commit because of other prospective jobs. It may be a domestic issue.
Trust intuition. Do what you know you must (yoda voice).
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Small subcontractors suffer from advanced cases of "feast or famine" and they typically don't understand that they can come to an agreement with you to set the trusses on THEIR schedule. Essentially, they are afraid to tell you the truth, that they don't know if they will be available when your trusses get dropped. So, they hedge their bets by being coy.
Your basic problem is that you are choosing from too small of a pool. YIf so, you might be falling into the trap of falling in love with ANYONE that hints that they will help you out and do the job. That is a recipe for disaster.
The solution is to have a much larger pool to choose from. That involves advertising your project in some way and having MORE subs seek your work instead of vice versa. There are a lot of people looking for work but they don't know you have some.
Post a Craigslist ad and be prepared to sort through ten, fifteen or twenty responses. When you realize that there are probably five to ten qualifed choices, you probably won't feel compelled to chase those that won't call you back.
I've got a plumber that is hard to get a hold of when he's busy. I know his patterns and at this point in time, I'm at his mercy...but....he's significantly less expensive than any plumber I've ever known and he is qualified.....which is a rare combination. So, because I know I'm getting great value when he works, I put up with it. I also don't have many pressing needs for a plumber or I'd have a much wider choice.
Also, don't give these guys a set of plans to bid trusses. If they can't tell you in five minutes after looking at the plans on their tailgates, they don't deserve a set. I tell them that I'll pdf them a copy if they really need it.
Good idea with the Craiglist ad Jim. I would love if my local lumber yard, HD Starbucks or Lowes has a job bulletin board to post stuff like this...anyway.
Thanks for the idea as you are right...it would be nice to have folks looking for work instead of having to chase down guys to do the work...
After having this conversation, I took my own advice and placed a cl ad for plumbers. I now have about 10 to choose from and I'll be testing a new one tomorrow.
I am going to have to try something like that as it sure is frustrating just trying to find guys who want to work.
That has always been the problem in Florida...There are not alot of skiiled businessmen AND craftsmen, just alot of guys with hammers and pickup trucks. They might be able to pound a nail but can't see the big picture of estimates, returning phone calls, etc. They all want to just show up and do the work open-ended then send you a bill.
Lucky for you, that craigslist ads for employment are still free.
Here, they are now charging $25 per ad, and I have seen a decline in the ads since they made the change.
Let us know how it works for you.
They aren't free here anymore. They are $25.
So, I post my requests for free on Gigs: labor.
Odds are the guys are bad businessmen, are in financial trouble, and simply can't get their heads clear enough to look at your job. It's "brain lock" -- some people think more clearly under stress, others can't think at all.
Usually I use the same guys on each job
That may be the partial answer to your question. I do a lot of sub work and the loyalty extends both ways. But, some of my GC's are bad about calling me until the day before they're ready for me and expect me to show up tomorrow as if I'm just standing around waiting on them to call.
If you're someone I've not worked for before and you've got a $10K job for me to look at and one of my regulars calls with the go ahead on a $50K job and he is known to be a quick check writer, he suddenly gets my attention and you fall off my radar. Not saying that's right, but it can happen. I also don't have any office staff, so sometimes phone calls don't get returned in a timely fashion. I've gotten 50+ calls in one day after a big storm. I can't even return them all, much less take care of that much damage, but the caller feels snubbed if I don't get right back to them. It's a tough nut to crack to keep everyone happy sometimes.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
You could "manage" those fifty calls by changing your voicemail to explain the situation.
I don't care if my subs are too busy, they just need to let me know. So, instead of me showing loyalty and screwing up my schedule and annoying my clients, I could find an alternate sub. It's just common couresty.
You could "manage" those fifty calls by changing your voicemail to explain the situation.
Yeah, there's always a way. I didn't solicit the majority of those calls, so I feel no responsibility to return them.
I don't care if my subs are too busy, they just need to let me know.
How can I let you know I'm gonna be too busy to do your job if you don't let me know you want me to do it until the day before it's ready.
All I'm getting is calls to do work tomorrow when I've had tomorrow booked up for weeks.
I deal with two extremes - bids that have to be submitted tomorrow and jobs that I bid a year ago and haven't heard a word about until they're ready for me to show up tomorrow. I'll have room to give more "common courtesy" when I receive some.
I always return phone calls. I just haven't gotten around to returning some of them yet.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
"How can I let you know I'm gonna be too busy to do your job if you don't let me know you want me to do it until the day before it's ready. "
I think you are being facetious. In case you are not, I'll give you the answer: Just return the call and tell them that you are booked for a couple weeks and the next time it might be good to give some advance notice and get on the schedule.
Or, just act like all the rest of the subs and don't return the call.
I think you are being facetious.
why?
I've got alot of those "next day service" calls over the years. Granted, there have been much more "next week" calls than "next day" ... but even next week isn't enough notice.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I'm not being facetious at all.
I've been guilty of not returning calls myself but I can't come up with a legit excuse for it.
We advertise and hope the phone rings. Then, when it rings too much we burn our future bridges by not handling ALL the calls professionally. Then, when the phone doesn't ring, we wonder why?
Casual calls from cold prospects should be acknowledged, but they get second priority to serious calls. First-priority calls--that is, calls from known quantities such as regular clients or regular subs--must be returned within 24 hours, or a bad message is sent. If I don't get a return call from a regular sub or supplier within that time period, I call a second time. If I don't get a call back on that one, I call someone else.
I figure my clients probably operate on about that same basis...as they have every right to.
Obviously there are times when the return call cannot be anything more than, 'I don't have an answer for you right this instant but I wanted to let you know I got your call and I'll have an answer for you by___', but that's the minimum a responsible businessman needs to do to merit the lable 'responsible.'
You can't be expected to plan your business life around maybes, possibilities, assumptions, and hopeful thinking....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Just return the call and tell them that you are booked for a couple weeks and the next time it might be good to give some advance notice and get on the schedule.
We're talking about two different things, I think. What I'm talking about is how a case like the OP slips through the cracks:
Some one that I have no knowledge of calls me when I have openings and says he has a project for me to look at. It doesn't sound like a very appealing project or it may not be one of our specialties, but it's potential work. I tell him I'll take a look at it in the next week or two. In the meantime, one of my regular customers calls with an $80K project that I bid 4-5 months ago that's ready to start (say the masons are to where they are ready for thru flashing) on Monday.
Now, the reason for the short notice is the weather's been bad and the mason has been working sporadically when he can. Then we get a couple of good days and he gets lots of work done and the GC thinks "Oh, no. I better call Grant". He hasn't called me previously because he's decided to get two other prices to keep me honest.
So, Suddenly my schedule is full. Then, the middle of the next week, Contractor B calls with a similar scenario. So now, I'm overbooked. I don't want to loose these guy's business, so we figure out a way to deal with it. In the meantime, I've forgotten all about the guy that cold called me and might just be kicking tires. It's not right, but I realized a long time ago that you can't suit everyone. I try, but sometimes by the time you call me, I've already reached my quota of how many people I can suit today. You might have to call back tomorrow.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Basically your pool is too small. You should have 3 subs for each trade and alternate. Yes, it's nice to have one Go To Guy for each trade, but if he gets sick or is hit by a bus or goes on vacation, you're screwed. Start finding 3.
For now, the speech I end up giving is "Look, I don't care WHEN you come. You pick the day. But I need to KNOW when so I can schedule the other trades." Now the pressure is off him and he thinks he sets the schedule. If his schedule works for you, cool. If not, start looking for his alternate. Either way, I repeat the date and tell him that I am holding him to it. I then call 2 days prior to reconfirm.
Also, either way, I start looking for plan B. He was late/ unresponsive once. We are all creatures of habit. You have to protect yourself.
What we all forget is that, as the GC, a lot of our time involves scheduling, calling and finding subs and employees in addition to finding new work. The phone is our new hammer. Once a project is fully staffed, we start assuming that we can cross the staffing task off or To Do List. Wouldn't that be nice? Always be on the lookout for new work and workers.
Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
that works ... unless you're small time like me.
I don't have enough sub work to keep one sub busy let alone farm out work to three subs of each trade.
if I did that, in the end I'd lose my one great sub and end up with 3 who kinda sorta remember who I am.
I'd rather take the chance and have one great one ... and work around their schedule when I have to ... same thing I ask customers to do with me.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
This is not a one size fits all solution. It's more of a conceptual thing. For years I had only one plumber. He saved my ars on one job and I never forgot it. As I grew he got bigger and bigger jobs. I trusted him with my life and life was good and getting better with him in the mix.So, even I don't always follow my own advice. However, now working for a company (not a partner) and doing much bigger jobs, I see the cost of being strung along by a sub who is unresponsive or worse - a diva. This not only costs the co. $$ and time, but that sub squanders our goodwill with other subs. They no longer can depend on us for a timely work schedule and therefore timely payments.I learned this well at the last co. I worked for. We had 2-3 of each sub and alternated the work, awarding it according to cost, complexity and level of quality. It also kept them competitive. The only guy who didn't compete was the tile guy. We only had one resource for that trade. Guess what. His prices always increased and not in line with inflation. But he was always responsive and punctual. Never missed a deadline. Again, an exception that proves the rule.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
It is a difficult tightrope to walk isn't it? The smaller the operation, the trickier the walk.
My plumber just dissappeared off the face of the earth. He was good while it lasted though but my advertising has given me a new crop to try out.
Frankie does have some good ideas and it sounds like its based on experience. And Jeff is right too as thats kind of how I am at the moment.
I guess I am always amazed at how many guys are in business YET do not really want to work! I guess they are only self-employed because they CAN'T work for someone else and its not because they want to work for themselves.
If anyone calls me about any job, I call them back then same day and tell them Yes or No and if they expect an estimate, they have one within a few days. Not weeks later.
Some guys drag you along and then are the first to call you when its slow asking if you have any work for them...
I still agree it's good advice ... find a great one and stick with him ...
just don't let them screw ya, quickly and all at once or slowly over time.
I lost my electrician, he got sick and went on disability ... found nother thru a friends recommendation ... and just as he took a teaching job I ran into a guy who's Dad worked with my Dad ... found out he does work for the high end kitchen guy who I use as by best reference ... so in the end ... I'm back to the level of electrician I started with.
Got lucky ... got a younger version of a great electrician.
My plumber is the best of both worlds ... great plumber ... and runs 3 to 4 crews. So any time I call it's immediate service ... I prefer to wait for him or his top guy ... but I can always get someone. That's the best deal there ... a great small company. Enough guys to go around ... and the owner knows your name.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yet after two weeks he still hasn't confirmed a price with me and let me know if he indeed is interested in the job!
Reads to me that he is letting you know if indeed he is interested in the job, and apparently he's not interested enough. ;)
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
See my work at TedsCarpentry.com