Replies

1. 
   piffin_ | Mar 01, 2002 03:25am | #1

   *
   Pine from the thirties had more resin in it because the old growth forests were crowqded and trees grew slower. The resin in the wood was considered to be a way of resisting the bacterial action. Modern Pine is less resinous but manufacturers such as Marvin, Anderson, et al apply or penetrate the pine with preservative solutions from the chemists. Both pine and poplar will wick up water so you would need to seal all six sides to be safe.
   We have gone to using lots of GPs Primetrim product for exterior flatwork. I have left some scraps of that lying near my shop in swampy soil for several years and the only damage it has suffered is the green growth on the surface. The first place you usually find rot in exterior wood trim is at the joint where window casing sets down on the exterior sill. Good place to pay extra attention is there.

   2" for water table sounds heavy at first chirp of the sparrow but all detail work shouyld be proportional to one another and to the size of the hopuse. If he is designing for a bulky look, aka mining camp style, then heavier trims will help the effect.

1. 
   Jeff_J._Buck | Mar 01, 2002 07:21am | #2

   *Just used a bunch of TrimTec PVC trim board. Expensive.....think a 1x6 was like $80 for the piece...only lenght was 18ft long.....but for flat trim...this stuff should excel. "Everything" proof....but I'm concerned about expansion/contraction.....but installed right....with a little highly expansive caulk....should last forever. Cuts nice, routs great......dust sticks to everything and tastes bad. Nails ok.....except too close to edges and miters. Slips like hell across the table saw.....and the crisp/clean cut miter edges show all imperfections. I had to run vertical pieces up a bay bumpout.....mitered long edge.....was real pain. Supposedly glueable.....maybe at more reasonable temps.....the standard PVC cleaner/glue they sent didn't set for hours. 2 part epoxy....said good for corian...worked well....but expensive.....and I settled on Weldbond. Didn't tack up...but set in reasonable time. Looks great......all in all not bad to work with.....but it isn't wood.....and the slightly bowed/crowned "factory perfect" pieces can't be worked/forced into place. For such tight tolerances as we needed for this particular job.....it was a real pain....and the boss said he'd not use it again as such....but for flat trim...corner boards...water table stuff.....it worked great. Jeff

1. 
   Tim_Kline | Mar 01, 2002 07:44am | #3

   *Jeez, Jeff $80 for 9 bd.ft. ? That's $9 a bd.ft. !!! I was hoping you would come back with some further info on that project. 9 bucks a ft for something that's harder to work with. For some "always wet" locations that we run into, I can see the benefits, but not everyday use. Thanks. As far as using poplar outside, don't do it. Ever. I don't remember where to tell you to look for the tables that show the relative rot resistance of different species, but poplar is dead last. Choose something else that you can buy off the shelf like white pine or mahogany. When you say 2" do you mean 2" exact or 2x material ? We can buy 2x (1 1/2" exact) D and better Doug Fir (stock) that would be awesome for your heavy stuff. 2" exact is heavy and custom, but could be proper. Either way, you may want to have a 1x finish board over blocking to simulate depth at a lower cost. Don't forget to flash the top horizontal edge of that water table.

1. 
   Mongo_ | Mar 01, 2002 08:28am | #4

   *In exterior applications, poplar generally will not last as long as pine. Poplar is my first choice for basic interior paint-grade trim...but for exterior? It doesn't even make the "When hell freezes over" list.

1. 
   donald_schlosser | Mar 03, 2002 12:46am | #5

   *b thanks, i'm going to use #2 pine as i usually do and deal with the knots. as for the plastic, i will keep it in mind for the future but this job is my house and i want all wood to go with clear cedar siding. Tim, the water table article was calling for true 2" material and it sounds to me like you guys agree that is overkill, i am just going to use 5/4 everywhere. as for my prior exterior work with poplar,i always used 3 coats of Schreuder oil paint on all edges and it does look wonderful but it has been only 2 years!(won't use it again though,THANKS AGAIN!)

2. 
   Jeff_Keeney | Mar 03, 2002 03:34am | #6

   *Hi Don. I'm a northeast builder myself. Why do you not use pre-primed redwood for your exterior trim? Is cost the only factor? I feel that the benefit of longevity substantiates the cost. We always "butter" all the joints with Phenoseal and we re-prime any bare spots with Cabot's Problem Solver primer. This will most likely out last any of us. We don't use finger-jointed anything.Jeff Keeney

3. 
   Tim_Kline | Mar 04, 2002 08:10am | #7

   *Jeff, What are you paying for redwood these days ? Is the 1x material still 11/16" or less ?

4. 
   robillard_ | Mar 04, 2002 11:44am | #8

   *I'm in N.E. too. Poplar moves too much outside. I love it indoors. I use pre-primed pine, cedar or redwood. All depends on the cust. budget. ROB

5. 
   Jeff_Keeney | Mar 05, 2002 06:13am | #9

   *Hey Tim, Unfortunately, the material is running 11/16. It has been pretty cconsistent tho. I believe I'm paying roughly $6.oo/LF for primed 1 x 12, around $4.50/LF for 1 x 10. We get it from Liberty Cedar in West Kingston, RI

6. 
   dogface | Aug 06, 2005 04:25pm | #10

   Jeff, interesting comments "don't use anything finger- jointed". Four years ago we put an addition on our home. We were advised it was great to use pre-primed finger-jointed boards for exterior trim. We primed again with oil based primer and coated with two coats of a high quality paint and caulked accordingly. Within 2 years, the boards on the south side on the house was actually rotting off!. The sill was punky like it had been on a forest floor for 50 years!. The lumber yard and our builder was in denial" never seen that happen before". I have been building furniture for 25 years so I do have experience with wood and while I was skeptical of this application. Do manufacturers recommend this for exterior trim in the Northeast? I have to replace myself now, what material  would you recommend? I live on Long Island. 

   Rich

   Edited 8/6/2005 9:28 am ET by Rich

   Edited 8/6/2005 9:31 am ET by Rich

7. 
   rez | Aug 06, 2005 07:56pm | #11

   Greetings Rich, as a first time poster Welcome to Breaktime.Just thought I'd mention that Jeff Keeney's post you responded to is a little over 3 years old and since that time the website here has changed hosts. In all probability Jeff will not receive notice that you have posted a question to him.Cheers and best to ya.

   Edited 8/6/2005 12:58 pm ET by razzman

8. 
   Sphere | Aug 06, 2005 08:03pm | #12

   Man, it was just getting fun too..

   be a cat outta the bag type dude  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

9. 
   rez | Aug 06, 2005 08:37pm | #13

   ok ok.So what material would you recommend?

    

    

   A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid 

10. 
    mbdyer | Aug 06, 2005 09:08pm | #14

    Depends on what you're willing to spend.  Azek/Simboard will last but costs.  It does have some thermal expansion/contraction issues but they're easily handled-haven't had any problems really.   However, properly backprimed, caulked and flashed pine will work well.  Prime every side of each board, including cut ends.  It can be a pain and little messy but it's well worth it.  Keep the joints tight and caulk all seams and edges.  You can also lay a bead of caulk on the back edge od the board (but not the lower edge or bottom!  You want any water that does get in to run out and not ge trapped.)   If you want to get crazy, you could measure the window accurately, fabricate a face frame from a resilent wood (teak, white oak, ipe) with lap joints or pocket screws!  But that may be over the top.  If you want to cap the trim with metal, you should still install primed wood.  Because of the two materials being close or touching and due to different thermal behaviors, one material will be cooler than the other at different times.  You know from the weather channel that when warm meets cool water condenses.  This is one good reason to allow the bottoms to drain water out.  I've pulled plenty of capping off that was in decent shape(replaced for asthetic reasons) only to reveal rotten wood pelp underneath.  Make sure the flashing is right, water runs downhill so the top should shed water out over the window with the sides draining down to the bottom which in turn sheds water back out onto the face of the siding.

11. 
    Sphere | Aug 06, 2005 09:12pm | #15

     

    ok ok.

    So what material would you recommend?

     

     

    I'd like Nebulon to be installed as per Quarno's explicit instructions.

    Nebulon is a holografic example of light in solid form, so no nails are needed unless you really want to see some.  Nebulon never needs paint, it is paint, and it never needs "re'anything" it is as permanent as you are.  If it is there, so are you.

    Actually, it will apply it self in due time, all ya have to do is watch for it...

    Sadly, it has a limited exposure time, of a billion or so yrs, but we seem to forget about it after a million or two, and it just sits there..all by it's self, lonely, and wanting.  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

12. 
    dogface | Aug 06, 2005 11:55pm | #16

    Man I'll have what he's having! Has anyone else had the same problem with the pre-primed finger-jointed?

    Rich

13. 
    Sphere | Aug 07, 2005 12:15am | #17

    Yes. It all will telegraph in due time.

    FJ EXT trim is an accident looking for a place to happen, I can apply a 16' solid crown from a ladder, with out a second hand, with prime clear RW or Sugar pine, or cedar.

    Hand me a FJ at 16', and I make a scarf, if I am solo. Cuz it will part ways unless under Ideal circumstances.

    If they claim that FJ is straighter, it really don't matter, the houses I apply it to are not.  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

14. 
    dogface | Aug 07, 2005 03:03pm | #18

    Good point. I'll look into pre-primed RW.

    Thanks,

2. 
   csnow | Aug 09, 2005 04:39pm | #19

   Water tables, like window sills, railings (or any horizontal surface) is just a tough situation for wood.

   I'm currently building some cellular PVC window sills and water tables.  1x6x12' is about $36 (Marley Mouldings), so not cheap.

   Using the PVC for just the horizontal surfaces, and wood for the rest may be a good balance.  Poplar is no good for outdoors.

   A couple of links on building windowsills and water tables out of PVC.

   http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/exterior/trim/window/casing_pvc/traditional2.htm

   http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/exterior/trim/water_table/pvc.htm