Replies

1. 
   rdesigns | Feb 08, 2012 06:14pm | #1

   Sounds like you're tied in with a "service" company that makes each visit an experience in using scare tactics to induce you to spend big bucks on things that may not really be needed.

   Regardless of that, I don't think you would come out ahead with a tankless WH.

   Keep an eye on your present WH, and the first time you see any sign of a leak of rusty water, that's a signal to replace it.

   What's happening then is a small rust-thru that leaks a small, not catastrophic, amount of water, and very often such a small leak will seal itself. But don't be fooled into thinking it healed itself. Shortly there will be a major leak, so get it replaced at that time.

   Replace it with another one similar--a 40- or maybe 50-gallon, 40k BTU unit. You would acheive payback on the tankless at about the same time you'd need to replace it.

   Even without knowing your electric rates, I can be fairly certain that gas will be cheaper, and it will certainly be faster to reheat the water, which is important with renters.

   You may be able to get this done for about $1000 to $1500 if you pay a plumber to do it. DIY'ing it would cost you about $500 or $600.

2. 
   DanH | Feb 08, 2012 09:04pm | #2

   Our current water heater was installed in 1976 -- still going.

   A tankless water heater does not, in general, save money.  Only in certain special cases (eg, a weekend cabin) does it make sense financially.  There are other reasons one might install one, but if you've been reasonably happy with your current unit there's no compelling reason to go tankless.

   The cost to operate even an ancient gas water heater is a pittance compared to what your furnace uses.  If you have your summer gas bills, look at them to see -- the water heater is probably about 3/4ths of the summer bill.

   Since you have gas, when it comes time to replace the unit another basic gas unit is probably the ticket.  (The only thing that MIGHT be cheaper to operate than a gas WH would be a VERY expensive heat pump water heater.)  Your basic gas water heaters are quite reasonably priced.  There are some higher efficiency units you might want to consider, but the overall "environmental footprint" of the unit so small you needn't bust a gut to get the absolute best.

   For an installer, while the service people on contract to HD/Sears/et al are a poor bet for more complicated work, most can replace a water heater, and do so at a reasonable (usually fixed) price.  Or you can deal with a local plumber -- it's enough of a standard job that they should be able to give you a (non-binding) quote over the phone.

   As someone else stated, be aware of the usual failure mode of water heaters -- a trickle of (VERY HOT) water out of the bottom of the unit.  (Sometimes you'll hear it squirting inside before you see it.)  So long as the unit is near a floor drain this usually isn't a disasterous situation (though of course you should avoid situations where the leak may go unnoticed for several days).  If it happens, the first step should be to turn off the gas to the unit, the turn off the water feeding it.

   As to the humidifier, they're nice to have (we have one here in MN) but not anywhere near a necessity.  And you only need the sump pump backup if power failures are common in your area (which I'd guess is not the case).  (Keep in mind that the backup battery will need replacing every 2-3 years, even if you don't use the unit.)

3. 
   himiler | Feb 08, 2012 11:03pm | #3

   Customer Service

   You need to find a company in the business of maintaining customers, not rediculous profit margins.  I don't live in your area, but I would definately suggest you stop paying for the business owners HumVee. 

4. 
   rich1 | Feb 08, 2012 11:11pm | #4

   Find another company NOW. 

   That tankless up here is about 3500 installed and we generally cost more than you guys down south.   Naviens literature says you will save an average of about 168.00 per year over the cost of a tank.  If you really want to spend 7g I might come down and do it and have a nice holiday at the same time.

   I'm a plumber up here in the great white north and normally I get choked when people complain about the price of boilers etc.  but  7g????? for a Navien??????????????

1. 
   DanH | Feb 09, 2012 07:27am | #5

   And, yep, that company is ripping you off.

5. 
   rdesigns | Feb 09, 2012 09:09am | #6

   Sounds like you're tied in with a "service" company that makes each visit an experience in using scare tactics to induce you to spend big bucks on things that may not really be needed.

   Regardless of that, I don't think you would come out ahead with a tankless WH.

   Keep an eye on your present WH, and the first time you see any sign of a leak of rusty water, that's a signal to replace it.

   What's happening then is a small rust-thru that leaks a small, not catastrophic, amount of water, and very often such a small leak will seal itself. But don't be fooled into thinking it healed itself. Shortly there will be a major leak, so get it replaced at that time.

   Replace it with another one similar--a 40- or maybe 50-gallon, 40k BTU unit. You would acheive payback on the tankless at about the same time you'd need to replace it.

   Even without knowing your electric rates, I can be fairly certain that gas will be cheaper, and it will certainly be faster to reheat the water, which is important with renters.

   You may be able to get this done for about $1000 to $1500 if you pay a plumber to do it. DIY'ing it would cost you about $500 or $600.

6. 
   xxPaulCPxx | Feb 09, 2012 12:45pm | #7

   You will save the environment by spending the money you will eventually make on Geothermal / Solar systems on a future home, and superinsulating it.  Being part of an early adopter will help make the products affordable for everyone else.

   You're not going to save the planet while you are a poor college student - focus your time and money on THAT, so you can really save the world later.

   You can easily replace your existing water heater - it's a simple DIY project.  Even dealing with the gas line is pretty straightforward as long as you are dilagent.  The hardest part about it is removing the old water heater, as it probably has 80 bound of rock sediment built up inside (like my last one did).  New ones are light.

   Oh, if you still want to save the world with your new WH, put a blanket on it and insulat the pipes as much as you can.

1. 
   bmell | Feb 11, 2012 04:49pm | #8

   Pahahaha thats hilarious you all! THANK YOU SO MUCH!

   This is precisely the talk-about that I needed to feel comfortable in making a decision.

   And yeah, When they said 7k for a tankless, and then he said the next step up is the HPWH which costs much more, and then I saw in FHBmag that the nicest HPWH units being looked at were near 2500, (and not to mention 1100+ for a sump back up battery....) I knew they were trying to be robbers.

   They suck.

   Oh and for who ever it was up there that mentioned look at my summer gas bill, youre right, its tiny!

   You all have been very helpful as well as amusing, making my decision very easy.

   (Incase you all were wondering, i'm going with a replacement normal good ol' tank, gas fired unit DIY. I figure, between myself (a second semester 3rd year Aerospace Engineering & Mechanical Engineering double degree student, and my two Aerospace Engineering student friends(/tenants presently), can most definitely figure out a simple H2O heater install.

   And I do plan to wrap it up....eventually.....when theres funds for it :)

   Thanks again everyone!

   -still loving FHB-

   Ben

1. 
   DanH | Feb 11, 2012 10:02pm | #10

   I figure, between myself (a second semester 3rd year Aerospace Engineering & Mechanical Engineering double degree student, and my two Aerospace Engineering student friends(/tenants presently), can most definitely figure out a simple H2O heater install.

   I dunno.  After all, installing a water heater isn't rocket science.

1. 
   xxPaulCPxx | Feb 12, 2012 05:10pm | #16

   It could be!

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGWmONHipVo

2. 
   calvin | Feb 12, 2012 10:32am | #13

   Ben

   There's got to be some humor in the idea of

   a couple engineers working for an engineer on a something as simple as a water heater install.

1. 
   DanH | Feb 12, 2012 11:01am | #15

   Not just engineers, rocket scientists!

7. 
   bmell | Feb 11, 2012 05:05pm | #9

   ...oh one last thing

   one last thing since i have such awesomely real people replying to me,

   Should I tell United Air Temp to bug off with this service warranty nonsence for $40 four times a year?

   They really don't seem to do much but once every 6 visits or so where they pull out the blower housing (i think?) and hose it down and replace it. And they say check the exhaust outlet pipe for cracks.....

   The reason I ask is because, I live in a 1940's built cape style home. During the winter months my home heats super unevenly.

   In order to have one of the two upstairs bedrooms to a barely comfortable warmth, the two downstairs bedrooms and bathroom get BLAZING hot, especially at night when people are sleeping and our doors are closed.

   The upstairs bathroom (above the downstairs bathroom and inbetween the two upstairs bedrooms) gets blazing hot as well and the second upstairs bedroom (across the hall from the one thats hard to get warm) gets plenty of heat.

   I've asked United Air Temp several times, this year and last, about them fixing this.

   I've gotten a whole line of answers from them rangeing from: its just the way your house is.... to its just the way this style house is.... to: you can purchase this that and that with an extra that plus that.....

   Its all nonsense. Is there anything that I can try, short of designing my own active damper actuated system on each of the vents in the house OR reducting the system so it isn't idiotic as it presently seems to be...?

   Thanks again everyone

   -Ben

1. 
   DanH | Feb 11, 2012 10:04pm | #11

   You certainly don't need the service 4 times a year.  Once a year at the start of heating season is reasonable (but I'd suggest you find another contractor).

   And very likely the uneven heat situation can be improved at least a little by installing dampers in some of the ducts.

2. 
   rdesigns | Feb 13, 2012 10:36am | #18

   The uneven heating is due to uneven airflow--that much is obvious. I mention it to protect you from anyone who might suggest that the solution is to buy a bigger furnace, because a bigger furnace will actually make the imbalances worse.

   The simplest action you can take to improve temperature balance is twofold: 1) run the furnace blower on low speed all the time during the heating season. This will help average out the temperatures by constantly mixing the air. 2) make certain that each upstairs bedroom has an unrestricted path for return air--this need not be a dedicated duct; just a tranfer grille or even a 1-1/2" door undercut will help. You're just giving a path for the supply air to get out of the room without pressurizing that room, because a pressurized room creates backpressure on the duct system, thus causing air to find a path of lesser resitance, which, in your case, is the lower floor rooms/spaces. 

8. 
   davidmeiland | Feb 12, 2012 10:09am | #12

   Agree with others

   that a gas tank unit is best and that a tankless won't save money.

   The one thing I will add is that location matters. If you have a natural draft gas water heater inside the living space, you need to know that it has enough combustion air to burn cleanly, and that the flue is venting well when the unit burns. So, before I simply removed and replaced an existing unit, I would look at where it's installed, whether or not there is spillage or backdraft, what the flue looks like and what other appliances share it (or used to share it), and so on.

   Take a few pics of the installation and post them if you have a minute.

9. 
   kurt99 | Feb 12, 2012 10:58am | #14

   Tankless may actually use more energy

   One of the advantanges of a tankless hot water tank is that you will never run out of hot water (so long as you don't exceed the flow rate that the heater is rated for).  This can be a good thing if four of you want to take showers in a row.  The last person will get just as much hot water as the first.  If, however, you have someone who likes very long, hot showers, with the present hot water tank, they get 40 gallons of hot water then a subtle reminder that it is time to get out of the shower when the hot water runs out.  They won't get this reminder with a tankless and can stay in the shower all day.

10. 
    renosteinke | Feb 12, 2012 07:20pm | #17

    Here's a "Polish Sauna"

    Here's a "Polish Sauna"  :

    That is ... I'm going to roll you in the snow first, and thaw you out in the nice sauna later ...

    The snow bath part:

    WTF are you thinking? DIY? A rental? Full time student?

    First off, learn some respect. Any tradesman puts at least as much effort into learning his trade as any engineering student. There's a reason these are called 'skilled trades.'

    DIY may not even be legal in your situation, since you are renting the property out. Especially in places like Massachussets, you'll likely need a permit, inspection, hire someone with a license, and bring everything to current code. Water heater codes have changed.

    A lot has changed a lot in the past 30 years- especially for gas heaters.

    Double degrees?  You ought to know by now that 'mechanical engineers' don't fix cars.

    Now, for the warm and fuzzy part .....

    Water heaters have limited lifespans. It's quite possible that yours needs replacing, but I'd prefer a better reason than just "it's old." Is it leaking? Filled with scale? Is the anode gone? Has the dip tube fallen free? The reason for the need to replace the water heater just might affect the choice you make.

    One area where water heaters have really changed is in terms of efficiency. Do you have a receptacle nearby, for the igniter? Pilot lights are history. Look at it this way: that pilot light alone burns $10 of gas each month.

    That said, the water heaters available to you at the box stores leave a lot to be desired. The licensed plumber has access to better stuff. Pro supply houses can't be bothered to sell the trades junk.

    The pro also has all the sundry bits & pieces handy. No point buying a set of tools and making ten trips to the hardware store. Ask yourself: what will you do if a joint doesn't open? Do you have a torch, a threading machine, or a torque multiplier?

    Tankless units have been getting a lot of press, but that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with having a traditional unit. It IS important that the heater be sized correctly; not all 100 gal units are the same.

    Which brings up the various code changes. There have been major changes in the required venting and support requirements. You might -depending on the location- even have to put the heater up on a platform. Getting a new heater with a quicker recovery time just might mean the venting you now have is inadequate. Anyone who just quotes a simple swap-out is doing you a dis-service.

    Another item to be looked at is the flue, and flue cap. Water heaters don't work very well if there's a bird nest atop the flue. Did your guy even look?

    You want to play student, you might start by curling up with the ASME "Boiler and Pressure Vessel" code, looking up the difference between 'water heater' and 'boiler.' Otherwise, your time is better spent studying.

    Let's look at the $$$. Just the parts, for a simple swap-out, using economy stuff, will set you back $500. Code upgrades and decent stuff from a pro, and a $2000 bill is quite possible. I'd call that a bargain- especially since your gas bill (for heating water) will probably drop 30%.