Replies

1. 
   Courtney_Ostaff | Aug 10, 2001 01:28am | #1

   *
   call realgoods and ask.....www.realgoods.com Huge tech staff....

1. 
   Rich_Beckman | Aug 10, 2001 01:50am | #2

   *If you're looking for a brand name, my understanding is that Red Jacket is the best.Rich Beckman

1. 
   Johnnie_Browne | Aug 10, 2001 02:58am | #3

   *stupid question: Why would lightin strike matter, everything below ground?

1. 
   Courtney_Ostaff | Aug 10, 2001 03:04am | #4

   *mmmm........dunno - metal parts above ground get hit, in contact with water, water carries electricity, electricity shocks sub pump?

1. 
   G.LaLonde | Aug 10, 2001 03:16am | #5

   *Check out the new variable speed motor pumps. They keep your water pressure within +/- 2psi of where you set it. Almost like being hooked up to city water!

2. 
   CaseyR_ | Aug 10, 2001 03:45am | #6

   *G.L., do you have any more info or brand names on the variable speed motor pumps? I just bought a 1/2 horse Red Jacket submersible pump to replace my 1hp jet pump and no one at the pump shop mentioned anything like that. Have the standard pressure switch that gives the 20psi swing between on and off. If I could get a +/-2psi pump for a reasonable price before I dunk this one down the well, I just might use it instead.Real Goods has some fun stuff, but they have premium prices. The stuff I have priced there I have found for significantly less elsewhere.

3. 
   Courtney_Ostaff | Aug 10, 2001 04:19am | #7

   *No, I wouldn't buy at Real Goods. Their tech support is invaluable though - they have more experience with funky stuff like that than anyone else. Like I said - call and ask. I didn't say buy! :).... Jade Mountain has some of that stuff cheaper....try BackHome magazine for some other places.....

4. 
   Johnnie_Browne | Aug 10, 2001 07:03am | #8

   *Everything on my well is PVC

5. 
   Scott_M. | Aug 10, 2001 09:08am | #9

   *HooWhee.... There's issues flying all over the place here, pressure, materials, lightning etc. Don't know about the lightning issue, but then my well is inside a building....If you've settled all other issues (and there are lots of them), and the only thing left is pump mfg, then I'd just go with a competitive price on a respectable manufacturer with a good warranty. I ended up with a Meyers; but there are many others.Never heard of a variable speed pump......Scott.

6. 
   Al_Fielder | Aug 10, 2001 01:31pm | #10

   *My well driller has been in business for many years (2nd or 3rd generation), has the best reputation in this area by far nad is sold on the Red Jacket brand (The company itself has undergone some changes but he still thinks its the best pump out there. Lightning strikes: I don't think any pump can withstand that, they happen, the voltage surge trashes the windings in the motor. I'd make sure your homeowner's insurance covers you for this.My understanding of the well drilling is this.The hole is bored (drilled) far deeper than the water level. There is typically some sort of casing put down into the hole but not as deep as the hole. There are two different water levels determined; 1. The static level which is where the water is at that point when the driller hit water; then 2. the pumping level which is where the water level drops to when water is being pumped out at some rate. I don't know the rate and it may be linked to the max capacity of your pump.The pump is then put into the well to a level below the pumping level. That difference is what I would call the safety margin so that in times of water shortage or other factors, your pump still stays submerged while pumping. The other thing is that you don't want the pump too near the bottom of the well because of silt, etc. that could get drawn up into the pump.I don't know where you are located but if a lawn irrigation system is a future possibility, I would oversize the pump to accomodate it as well.Good luck, sorry for the long winded message.

7. 
   CaseyR_ | Aug 10, 2001 07:33pm | #11

   *I would assume that it would depend upon the type of soil structure in your water bearing strata, but I was told to be wary of going too big with the pump as it could pull more material from the well walls into the well and could even lead to the well walls collapsing. The larger the motor in a submersible pump, the more torque it produces on startup which must be considered. There was a discussion in Breaktime a year or more ago which mentioned some torque resisting measures. If you go to a very large pump, you probably want to talk to your well equipment supplier about handling the start up torque. I decided to go with a slightly smaller submersible pump and a somewhat larger storage tank. My well pump will not be adequate for fighting the inevitable brush fire in my area, so I am seriously considering putting in a water storage tank and auxiliary booster pump for fire protection.

8. 
   David_Thomas | Aug 10, 2001 09:23pm | #12

   *Casey: Virtually all modern wells have casing installed - metal or plastic pipe which is slotted through the water-yielding zone. (An exception would be some wells drilled in rock.) Cased wells can't collapse due to high pumping rates, but more silt can be brought into the casing by higher pumping rates. All wells should be developed - pumped at a high flow rate to clear out these fine sediments before the well is put on-line, but that it rarely done adequately.For fire protection, I like the storage tank approach (or swimming pool or big fish pond) and a gasoline-powered pump. During a area-wide fire, you are very likely going to lose electrical power. Consider some automated system of sprinklers on the roof, etc that could be deployed quickly while you get your butt to safety. -David

9. 
   CaseyR_ | Aug 10, 2001 09:46pm | #13

   *David - thanks for the info. My 120' well was drilled sometime in the 1940s (I think, as the local Watermaster has no record of it). I was of the impression that the casing did not go down the full 120 feet, although I don't really know. As to the water tank for fire safety, I am tentatively planning on a 2000 gal tank that will be on a hillside about 40' above the house. (I currently have a 500 gal tank mounted on a trailer and have a small Honda gas powered pump I plan on mounting on it.) The area has orchard grass and oak trees. Any thoughts on about the minimum size/cheapest gas powered pump to hook to the 2000gal tank?

10. 
    CaseyR_ | Aug 10, 2001 10:02pm | #14

    *Bruce - If you are serious worried about a lightning hitting the electrical line in your area and frying the pump motor, you could install a surge arrester for your pump. I believe that companies like SquareD have surge supressors that fit in a main panel or a sub panel. I have installed various surge suppressors for electronic equipment and computers, but not for motors. If you are worried about a lightning strike actually hitting your pump house, then you might want to install lightning rods on the pump house. We don't use such things in this part of the country so can't give you direct advice, but you can do a search of the Internet on "lightning rod" and there is some info out there.

11. 
    David_Thomas | Aug 11, 2001 02:01am | #15

    *Casey: I'd pick the pump based on two things: hose size and height of burning objects. Take the hose cross-sectional area and multiple by 5 feet per second (the best speed for water in pipes). So 3/4" gives 7 gpm, 12gpm in 1", 28 gpm in 1.5", 50 gpm in 2", etc. A 100 gpm pump will only do 12 gpm in 1" diameter hose.Next, start with at least 20 psi to make the nozzle work. Then take the height (in feet) of the tallest tree or building you want to water, divide by 2.31 to get psi. And add 5 psi for each 100' of hose. So a 2-story house on a 40-foot hill, 200 feet from the tank/pump would want 20+(30+40)/2.31 + 2*5 = 60 psi required at the pump. NOT its max pressure, but its pressure at the desired flow rate (such as 12 gpm for 1" hose). For selecting a hose/tank size, I'd ask how long so you want to spend playing firefighter. I'm thinking that in less than an hour, things have either gotten a lot better or a lot worse. So 2000 gallons/60 minutes gives 33 gpm or about 1.5" hose to make full use of your 200-gallon tank. However, anything over 1" is a lot of hose to handle single-handed. Ask a firefighter.Another perspective would be the unattended sprinkler system and then two garden hoses at 7 gpm each would give you 2.4 hours of protection. Ideally you'd have some heat-sensitive trip for the sprinklers so you could leave a long time in advance and let the sprinklers come on when needed.I saw a friend on the newscasts of Oakland Hills Fire of 1991 (2300 homes lost) trying to hose down a roof. He could have done better peeing on it. Between massive water use and power failures to the pump stations, only those with pumps and hot tubs would get any flow. -David

12. 
    Steve_Hansen | Aug 11, 2001 02:30am | #16

    *Casey,Before you install your water tank check with your fire department. Find out what kind of connection they will need to hook up a pumper and how they would like it marked. In this area (NE Ark) ponds are commonly fited with a simple PVC stand pipe that the pumper trucks can use as a source if necessary.Steve

13. 
    Don_Reinhard | Aug 12, 2001 03:17am | #17

    *Lightning strikes: One of my neighbors had lightning strike a tree about 100 ft from his well. Surge traveled through wet ground to well, split casing on the way to the water table some hundreds of feet below ground. Where we are, North GA, wells are typically 300 plus ft deep. Well is cased as deep as bedrock and grouted. That is usally 75 ft. Several days after neighbor lost his well, we had lightning strike tree about 50 ft from well. We now have a lot more sediment in water. Haven't opened well head up yet to look. No guts!!!Don

14. 
    splintergroupie_ | Aug 12, 2001 07:15am | #18

    *The controls on my pump were fried with lightening--electrician said the lightening hit the ground (dirt) and likely traveled BACK along the ground to fry the controls. The next time, it took out the pump proper...*sigh*...the insurance doesn't cover acts of God unless the lightening starts a fire, then you're covered for fire. Your mileage may vary, but i asked to amend my homeowner's policy due to my lightening-prone area and my knowledgeable ins. rep said it just isn't done like that.The best installers around here use Myers pumps. The next-best installers use Red Jacket. My wells are 150' deep, static at about 45' above that, 15 gal/min with a 10 gal/min pump (you want to err on the side of caution). I have 3/4 horse Myers pumps in both of them, though the 1/2 horse pump is just within parameters on the chart. I can run two impact sprnklers on it, but more and they don't go 'round....

15. 
    Martagon_ | Aug 12, 2001 02:40pm | #19

    *SG: insurance policies must vary, lightning struck my Mother's TV aerial a couple of years ago, and travelled through to one on the electrical boxes and took out the phone. The insurance covered replacing the rotor, radio, and the phone. No hassle. When she called, they just said, 'oh, did you get struck too?' So they must've had a few calls after that storm. S. Ontario is a fairly common area for thunderstorm. (We can only dream about thunderstorms, or any other kind of rain storm this year. 1/16" rain since July 1)

16. 
    splintergroupie_ | Aug 12, 2001 06:31pm | #20

    *Thanks, Martagon! I'll do some checking into this further since the other house i'm remodeling is nearby the one that gets hit a lot. I could see a good storm taking out both places pretty quickly, lots o' dollars...i lose my phones all the time, even on surge protectors!Odd year: spring and summer traded places. Drying out now, but it doesn't look like we could have the Summer of Fire like they were predicting agian for this year...unbearable smoke for weeks and weeks.

17. 
    Erich_Muschinske | Aug 14, 2001 03:26am | #21

    *Surge protectors aren't desigend to handle lightning strikes. Lightning arresters are different beasts. Usually a surge is only a couple of hundred volts on the line, lightning strikes go up into thousands of volts and hundreds of amps. You might want to look at the Polyphaser web site for additional info (www.polyphaser.com). Erich

18. 
    splintergroupie_ | Aug 14, 2001 04:50am | #22

    *Erich,The surge protectors i have offer a 100% lifetime guarantee of connected equipment replacement, so that's the main reason i have them, that and the fact my co-op elec co. stinks and plays with the voltage from time to time. The do seem to be doing something--haven't lost a phone so far this year, knock on wood.Thanks for the site. I poked around and understood about a tenth of it, but more than i knew before!

2. 
   Bruce_Pirger | Aug 14, 2001 04:50am | #23

   *
   Yahoo! Over 15gal/min in my new 174' well. Everyone suggests a different submersible pump to me. Any comments on the "best way to go"? I'm up on top of a hill...I have some fears about lightning strikes.

   Thanks much,
   Bruce