I just purchased a house with white oak ~2″ strip flooring throughout the first floor. The contractor apparently used a finish of marginal quality, probably a urethane, so after only 8 years the finish is gone in some high traffic areas and dirt has accumulated in the rays and pores. I called one local expert who said the only solution is to redo the entire first floor, since the house has an open floor plan and there are no clear boundaries.
The price of $4K plus the hassle of moving out for a week seems excessive given the affected areas can’t total more than 20 square feet. There isn’t any stain on the wood.
Can you think of another solution? Could I have the problem areas cleaned, lightly sanded and refinished? Any suggestions for finishes?
Thanks for your suggestions!
Replies
you CAN do it in sections.... even with an open floor plan..
BUT.. the dust will go everywhere.. and you won't believe the dust..
you didn't say what the dimensions are or what the area is.. so I have nothing to judge the scope by..
your choice.. try to patch it... a lot of elbow grease... some Minwax polyshades so you can match teh existing...
or do it in sections .. or go whole hog and do it all at once..
take your family on a cruise and have a talk with the floor guy about dust control and clean up...
BTW .. normal here is 4 coats.. one seal and 3 finish.. but high traffic areas should get 6 to 8 coats.. so your original finish may not have been inferior at all.
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 9/13/2002 8:16:14 PM ET by Mike Smith
Mike
Thanks for your reply. The problem areas are maybe 5 sq ft in 3 spots. I'm not suggesting that the entire floor be refinished in sections, just local control and top coating of the problem areas.
If I decide to go this route is is possible to use light sandpaper, water and mineral spirits to get the dirt out of the pores? Any suggestions on techniques or materials to clean?
If I can't get the dirt out, I'd be in the position of sanding below the dirt level, in which case the floor will be uneven in spots - hardly optimal. Or sealing in the dirt or filling the grain to hide the dirt.
What's the strongest urethane to apply?
Thanks for the advice!
Chan
"C"
A good quality finish will began to fail after only a few years on high traffic areas and if the floor is not properly cared for.
What you need is a screen and re-coat. It is best to do the entire floor to avoid lap marks. A screen and re-coat can be performed in one day and will create very little dust.
If the worn area is beyond a screen and re-coat and you decide to do the entire floor look for a finisher that is using dustless equipment. Everything I run is 90% dustless, from my big machine to my spinners to my detail sanders.
Ditch
Ditch
Thanks for your comments. What is involved in a screen and a top coat? Is this going to remove the dirt that is in the pores and rays in the high traffic areas?
What is appropriate 'protection' for high traffic areas? Do you mean rugs and runners?
Chan
"C"
My technique for a screen and re-coat involves:
String mop the floor with TSP and warm water. String mop rinse the floor a few times with warm water using a wringer style bucket and wringing the mop out very dry. Resand the floor with 220 paper on my spinner or if the original finish has not completely failed buff with an aggressive pad. Re-coat.
I always recommend a complete refinish when the original finish has failed and bare timber is exposed.
Proper protection means keeping the floor clean, having walk-off matts outside of all doorways and not wearing dirty/gritty shoes in the house. I don't like 'runners' in hallways. Room size area rugs are nice though.
Ditch
Edited 9/15/2002 2:49:55 PM ET by luvditchburns
What is the benefit of my company purchasing expensive dust-free sanding vacumns for my spinners and buffers? Does it save me money? What is the financial return on investment? Since I charge from 150-500 dollars to plastic off cabinets, draperies, lighting, etc. at a good profit, (any 10 dollar/hr helper can do it), what is the incentive for me to make the big purchase, and what is your total investment in that equipment? I an not aware of any finisher that has died exclusively from dust inhalation considering the use of dust masks. GW
What is the benefit of my company purchasing expensive dust-free sanding vacumns for my spinners and buffers? Does it save me money? What is the financial return on investment? Since I charge from 150-500 dollars to plastic off cabinets, draperies, lighting, etc. at a good profit, (any 10 dollar/hr helper can do it), what is the incentive for me to make the big purchase, and what is your total investment in that equipment? I an not aware of any finisher that has died exclusively from dust inhalation considering the use of dust masks. GW
Greg,
First of all, a spinner and a buffer are the same machine.
The benefits of going dustless are too numerous to list. Most importantly it makes me different from all the other finishers. Dustless sanding is a service within a service. It is also the reason I went to water-borne finishes (which you questioned me about in another post)... Because of water-bornes low VOC and fast dry times, I get the job completed faster and don't leave a lingering solvent odor behind, and that lessens the 'hassle factor' for the customer. I've taken a service which used to be a messy and smelly total pain in the a$s for the customer and made it bearable...even enjoyable.
Yes, the equipment is expensive and I purchased some entirely new machines because my old Hummel couldn't be retrofitted. Then I went on an advertising blitz, you know, dustless, odorless, yada yada yada.....and watched my business explode. I am booked 6 to 8 mos. in advance and the calls keep coming. I'm also working in prime market areas which have belonged to other finishers for generations. I'm at the crucial point in my business where it's time for me to expand.
My investment in the equipment was large, but I have been able to pay for it since I made the investment, with the increase in sales.
Concerning the health factor: Sanding dust is dangerous, especially the first cut, where old finishes could contain any number of toxic substances, and only an approved MSA and serviceable respirator will contain the particles. The use of oil-borne finishes over a prolonged period will cause permanent central nervous system damage, says so right on the label.
...And you charge the customer $150.00 to $500.00 for hanging plastic? That's bad business. I also hang plastic between areas that aren't being sanded, and I run an air cleaner in the room and exhaust fans in the windows...at no extra cost. That's good business.
Any smart business owner understands the concepts of reinventing yourself, how new technology can increase sales and improve profits and provide a better service to the consumer. Remember: It's not about us, what's easiest or what we're familiar with, it's about the customer and what makes their experience with your business a positive one.
Winters coming...our winters suck! I might move my business to a more comfortable climate and take market share from other finish companies...hmmm..... So. Cal. might be a nice place to live....
Ditch
L,
All of my questions towards you were sincere in nature. I can understand the need to sell your business with these various new techniques. But for an installer/finisher that has been at it for over 20+ years, I no longer have the need to sell my product. It sells itself. I do not advertise and I am only in the phone book so my old customers can find me. Most of my business is with building contractors. I do very little with the public. Since I do not have competitors I am on a friendly basis with most of the other flooring contractors in my area. Only one that I am aware of has the dust free system, and he only works with the public. I am only interested in how it would benefit me to buy the products. I currently have over 60K invested in equipment not including any vehicles.
You and I will part ways as to why we are in business. I am not here to serve consumers. For me it is an even trade. I give them a floor and they give me money at the best rate of pay that I can convince them to pay. I am not the highest, but I am just below that level. I work out of my house and maintain very low overhead. Since only one finisher in my area is dust free, charging for plastic work is a standard in my locale. As to the spinner/edger issue. Back in the late 70's when I first bought sanding equipment, I started with a 12" American Drum Sander and an American Spinner. That is what they called it then, and it caught on here in So. Cal. No one here calls them an edger. When I talk to installer in other parts of the country I usually call them an edger to make it easy. Also, a buffer is a buffer here.
I used to sell Breathe-Easy Respirators nationally to floor contractors through the Hardwood Floors Magazine. It is a full helmet with positive flow filtered air to the mask. About 1K to purchase. I sold most of them to guys that used water based products, ( 5 of them to the Russians in Moskow), because the toxins in water base at the time was worse than the toxins in oil polyurethane. One could not smell them though. I got interested in them because I used Glitsa on my white wash finishes, and that was all we did in the 80's. 8 out of 10 jobs were whitewashed. Waterbase would not hold up on them. Glitsa did the job, and a B-E respirator was a necessity. I still use mine on oil base jobs. That is an exposure that I am not interested in. Not at 50.
I am not knocking your style. I am just interested in your thinking. I applaud your vigor to stand up for your successful business practices. GW
The U-sand no dust orbital sander is a great machine. I just did a 12x13 fir 2nd floor BR, and have done no cleanup anywhere else in the house. Even the windowsills in the BR showed only a thin film of dust even though a few gallons of dust were generated (Hint, wear a dust mask when emptying the dust bag, and do it downwind at the far end of the yard). I hung a sheet over the door frame (no door at moment) and set up a box fan to push air into the room and that was it for whole house dust control. I think Ditch summed it up best when he said he differentiated himself from the rest of his competitors by offering new improved services. Everyone we asked about floors and floor people described their nightmarish experience of having floors done in an occupied house, which convinced us to do them way ahead of schedule while the house was empty, and therefore we weren't that inconvenienced by the dust. Now contrast the experiences of those other peope against someone who can do the work without the mess and guess who the consumers will choose once they are aware there is a choice. My experience was so good and the mess so little with the U-sand that Princess is even considering letting me do the floors in our BR. And she is the queen of clean.
The place I rented from charged $36/day, 144/wk, and about $400 a month. Go to http://www.u-sand.com and they have a list of places that rent their machines all over the country. I have to admit I was amazed that Ditch knew of two places in my town that rented them and he lives over 2000 miles away.
Also, I did a premptive strike against high wear with a few strategically placed area rugs, especially one at the bottom of the stairs. One of my friends showed me where he had high wear on the landing at the bottom of the steps, and of course this was where the cat chose to pee while they were off on vacation.
Put a real nice rug over the spot. There are some unbelievable persian or other high quality rugs you could chose from. A good rug is very durable and will hold up to high traffic.
As far as the finish, the best (toughest) I have found is a moisture cured urethane. Few people are skilled at Appling it and you need to be aware that if you use an oil base stain, the stain must dry for a min. of 72 hours. A faster turn around can be had with alcohol based stain but even fewer people can do this (its a real pain not to get lap marks). I am an architect that has worked for the Hard Rock Cafe for over 20 years and we have tried a variety of products (water based, standard poly, glitz, etc.) and the moisture cure urethane has had the best durability. In a residence I don't see how you could need this level of protection if you clean and maintain the floors.
Here is a link to what is now the standard spec.
http://www.ultradec.com/urethanes.html