Sun screen, some new information
I had my bi-annual dermatologist appointment yesterday and thought I’d pass on some more refined information about sunscreen.
First, a couple of fundamentals. There are two types of Ultra violet or UV rays, type A and type B. Type A is the kind that penetrates to the deeper tissues and can eventually manifest on the surface as one or other form of skin cancer. Type B is the kind that causes sun burn.
All sunscreen will work against Type B rays, the more effective having the higher numbers.
I asked the doctor specifically about type A rays. I told her that I’d heard that no sunscreen is effective against them. She said that’s NOT strictly true, that some sunscreens are effective against UV A but that the chemicals break down after about an hour of sun exposure and cease to provide protection. She said that the most effective sunscreens contain either zinc or titanium. That information is available on the product label.
This includes the old standby, zinc oxide, the white cream that’s been seen on noses for many generations. Apparently the zinc reflects the UV A rays. The white cream is certainly effective at covering up the surface skin, protecting it from burning.
She specifically recommended Neutrogena Ultra Sheer. As she’s a rather young light skinned caucasian, the most susceptible skin type for cancer, I’ll take that advice as significant.
Edited 9/15/2007 12:20 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Replies
bump
What's sunscreen?
i use bullfrog mist. good stuff.
It's especially good for bald spots! buic
I was a wiseazz on this topic too, before the first occurance of skin cancer. That was enough to get my attention, thankfully before it became life threatening.
Had I known about how sunscreen works I might've avoided a lot of issues I'm now forced to deal with.
We've had threads on this topic, one of them earlier this summer, so I'm just revisiting the subject with some of what I learned from the doctor yesterday.
Now, if you're not living in a fair skinned caucasian body, you can forget all of this stuff.
Thanks for the update. I go Monday, and I'll quiz my dermatologist. He's a researcher also, so he should be up-to-date. He reccomended NoAD 50 SPF before.
I go Monday, and I'll quiz my dermatologist. He's a researcher also, so he should be up-to-date. He reccomended NoAD 50 SPF before.
Good. I'd like to keep the information from different dermatologists coming in. There are new sunscreen products showing up on the market regularly, each of them with their own claims, so it would be helpful to hear recommendations from all of our doctors.
I was also given a couple of prescriptions for other forms of treatment she wants me to try. One of them is a topical form of kemotherapy called Efudex, a brand name. I've had a lot of A.K.s popping up on my face and particularly my forearms, the last few years.
The doctor said that the kemo cream brings all the precancerous cells up to the surface where they're killed off. This should eliminate the A.K.s which, for the last fifteen years or so, have been frozen off with liquid nitrogen, applied by the doctor.
I've done a bit of research on line, reading up on this treatment. I wanted to make sure that it wouldn't cause any serious side effects, which apparently it does not.
One other item of note: While researching Efudex I discovered that it's available on line, from Canada, for about one third the best price I found locally. $70 vs. $215.
The other prescription is some special moisturizer. I haven't looked that one up as yet.
My doc freezes, then burns off the keritoids with a cauterizer. Twice the fun. Smells like Yankee BBQ. ;-)
Always look for the "ink stain" type of blemish. Could be a melanoma, and those will kill you....
Always look for the "ink stain" type of blemish. Could be a melanoma, and those will kill you....
Yep. I had one of those on my upper back, a few years ago. It started out looking like an oblong mole then, after about six months, morphed into a small ink stain. It was biopsied and came back as a melanoma in situ. That was taken off with a fairly substantial piece of flesh. The biopsy from that was good with plenty of margin so the prognosis is excellent.
BTW, I had a mole cauterized once but mine smelled more like roast chicken...even though I was fearless. ~!~
Edited 9/14/2007 1:32 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Another option beyond sunscreen if you need one
http://www.sunprecautions.com/
Another option beyond sunscreen if you need one
http://www.sunprecautions.com/
Thanks for the link. That's something I'll definitely look into.
My doc had given me a perscription for a product called Aldara. It is for AK and basal cell. It somehow uses your own immune system to fight it. I used it for quite awhile it worked great no more buring, freezing or cutting. Then I had a couple of spots pop up on my shoulder/neck. The spots get worse bebore they get better with this medicne.
Well these spots got worse and bigger and stayed bad. I ended up with a "spot" about 6-7 inches in diameter and just raw. It took stroids and some other type of cream to clear it up. So just watch out for topical creams to get rid of AK and Basal cell.
MikeWe are the people our parents warned us about. J. Buffett
I was also given a couple of prescriptions for other forms of treatment she wants me to try. One of them is a topical form of kemotherapy called Efudex, a brand name. I've had a lot of A.K.s popping up on my face and particularly my forearms, the last few years.
My doc tried the efudex on my AKs and it sort of supresses them, but doesn't really make them go away permanently. He told me that it is very effective for some people, just didn't work for me. I get the liquid nitrogen, which does work, although it doesn't look so hot :) for a while.
My father died a few months ago from squamous cell skin cancer that metastacized. Apparently that is extremely rare, but??
I'm sorry to hear about your father. But thanks for reminding us that all forms of skin cancer are potentially serious.
IMO, anyone who got sunburned as a kid should get examined by a dermatologist once a year, even if they've never been burned since. I was told that childhood sunburns are often enough to cause melanomas, later in life.
The melanoma which popped up on my back would've gone undetected, had it not been for a timely exam by the dermatologist.
Edited 9/14/2007 10:34 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
HVC - Sorry if it came across that way, not my intention.
I was serious about spraying my bald spot, and the rest of me as needed.
Been doing it for years. I keep bullfrog spray in my toolbox, another in my garage, and a third in the house.
I've found sprays the easiest to apply and reapply.
And for the record, I am living in a middle aged, overweight, "fair skinned caucasian body." (g)
Hopefully for quite a while longer...buic
define middle age...
or is that middle ages???Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It's what I say it is!(g)
I'm not old, I'm middle aged.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it....
fer a sec there I thought you meant you were from the middle ages...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
ya mean ya thought he was Piffen?
dat too...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Holy C***, no one else is that old, are they? (g) buic
that's one of the things that makes him special.
One time, when he and Noah were working on the ark...
just a minute, someone's at the door...
I was serious about spraying my bald spot, and the rest of me as needed.
Been doing it for years. I keep bullfrog spray in my toolbox, another in my garage, and a third in the house.
That's a new one for me, the bullfrog spray. I'm glad to hear that you like the spray. I bought the Neutrogena stuff in that form yesterday, thinking that it might be a little simpler to put on.
"I bought the Neutrogena stuff in that form yesterday, thinking that it might be a little simpler to put on."
Exactly why I use the bullfrog spray. It's easy and simple so I use it more often.
I never liked smearing my skin with lotion, much less use it on my head! buic
You know they have this on thing for bald spots, it's really effective. Gosh, what is it called? Oh yeah! HAT!
Where would I go to look for one of these "hat" things? thanks...buic, ;>)
edit to add, I've always hated the feel of a hat on my head.
It was never a problem until the first time my bald spot burned! ouch
Edited 9/15/2007 10:55 am ET by BUIC
Good info, HVC. Just so happens that Neutrogena is the type I have. Guess I'll buy more...
Good info, HVC. Just so happens that Neutrogena is the type I have. Guess I'll buy more...
I went to a well stocked drug store this afternoon and bought some Neutrogena Ultra Sheen spray, rated 45. I noticed that Neutrogena makes several types of sunscreen and that Ultra Sheen is the only one of them that is rated to deal with both type A and type B UV rays.
Hey, how'd this thread end up in the tool bin? LOL.
I thought I put it under General Discussion. An apparent SNAFU.
Coincidentally enough, I had my annual dermatology checkup this week also, and the doc again recommended the Neutrogena. Apparently it uses "Helioplex," some sort of process that makes the stuff effective for much longer than regular sunscreen. They now make a product with spf 70 as well.
Decades ago it seemed like a good idea to spend all summer out without a shirt. Now, maybe not.
I'm suprised to read all these Dr recommended high spf's.
coupla years ago my Mom's skin cancer Doc told her anything over 15 was just real high doses of added chemicals ... so she was to use 15 and cover up.
coupla years after that ... our son was born and had eczema ... and we got the same advice from a different Dr. ... granted ... I was the one that brought up the subject.
he said not to give a baby higher than the previously recommended 15.
said the chemicals were as bad for them as the sun.
said use 15 , actually apply and reapply the right way ...
and limit the sun when needed.
as a side note ... my Mom was never a big "sunning" person. Just didn't like baking in the heat. We went to the beach every summer. She'd always cover up and sit under the umbrella ... while Dad who worked shirtless most of the summer would hit the beach the first day and fall asleep first thing in the morning. He'd cook for a coupla hrs ... next day he'd sleep on the other side. Every year ... lobster red.
rest of the week was to "bake it in ... turn the burn to tan".
They're both in their mid 70's ... each get checked ... each year she gets a small piece cut off ... each year he's clean.
should be completely reversed!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I'm glad that you brought up the concern about chemicals, Jeff. I've been having a conversation about sunscreen via Email with a cyclist friend over the last few days. He just sent me this link to a web site which provides a lot of information about each of the chemicals in different sunscreen products. http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/special/sunscreens/summary.php
I haven't had the time to study it yet but I will be doing that over the weekend. It looks like something worth discussing here and with our dermatologists.
Edited 9/15/2007 7:34 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
yeah ...
that's why I just used the term ... "chemicals" ...
don't have enough working knowledge to talk about the specifics. Understood what both Dr's were talking about at the time ... but not enough to try to really explain it to someone else, ya know.
but appearantly there are not so bad, bad ... and worse. And different levels of each in there. And for a long term user ... definitely something to talk to an expert about.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Just pure coincidence, but I happened to be writing a bit in a different forum about light and windows. In this case it was about UV, visible, and IR light spectrums.
If anyone is interested, here is a snippet from that other forum about UV light that backs up what HVC was saying in the first post.
All light is part of the Electromagnetic spectrum. We, as human beings, are biased toward the visible light portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. For the most part, unless it somehow directly affects us, we ignore the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum except for the visible light portion.
Considering visible light as the starting point, at the far end of the UV spectrum we find x-rays. When needed, we certainly do pay attention to x-rays – and with the relatively new awareness of the damage that UV light can do to our bodies, we have become much more aware of UV light in recent years as well.
How many folks buy sunscreen? How many folks use tanning booths? How many folks actually understand the difference between the UVA and the UVB labels that are printed on the bottles of sunscreen? Many people have heard that UV is a sanitizer – does all UV light sanitize or just some parts? Anyone ever buy a UV or “blacklight”? Does UV light affect plant growth? If so is it good or bad?
If you have a sunburn, you have experienced UV light directly. If you have ever moved a wall hanging or picture and have seen faded paint, you have experienced UV directly. If you have ever had a tan, you have experienced UV directly. You can sun-tan thru a piece of clear glass, but you can’t sun-burn thru a piece of clear glass. Why? Because ordinary clear glass is transparent to UVA and opaque to UVB and as it happens UVA is responsible for tanning your skin while UVB is responsible for burning your skin. So, obviously UVA is good and UVB is bad, right?
Not necessarily. UVB causes you to burn because your skin is relatively opaque to the UVB frequency range and the UVB “rays” can’t penetrate very deeply into your body. This results in red and uncomfortable surface layers – or sunburn.
UVA, on the other hand, penetrates those top layers of skin very easily which then stimulate melanin production which results in that nice dark tan. Unfortunately, since UVA penetrates relatively deeply it also may affect you at the cellular level resulting in those unfortunate lesions which we call skin cancer.
So while UVB causes you discomfort, UVA can kill you.
The blacklight that I asked about earlier radiates at 365nm (nanometers) which is right smack dab in the UVA spectrum. Does this mean that your innocent little blacklight could cause cancer? Nope, it is way too weak for that without massive exposure – way more than you need to worry about.
Anyone ever go to the doctor and have him or her use UV light as an anti-bacterial agent? If so, he/she was using UVC in that capacity. Notice I didn’t mention UVC in the earlier paragraphs? Well that is because UVC is blocked by the ozone in the upper atmosphere and doesn’t reach the ground. That is good because UVC is nasty stuff – it kills things. The very best reason for protecting the ozone layer is to ensure that UVC doesn’t reach the ground…that would not be a good thing.
Your doctor, swimming pool, hot tub, and whatever other germicidal purpose that uses it, likely is using UV light at 254nm to kill germs. Interestingly, UVC at 254nm also causes many minerals to fluoresce or to glow. Mineralogists use 254nm UV all the time to help identify certain minerals in rocks. Additionally, 254nm UV light also causes the tin-side of ordinary float (window) glass to glow as well. This allows glass folks to identify the tin or air side of a piece of glass which can be important in certain applications – such as applying LowE coatings or in laminating glass.
About 3% of sunlight that reaches us here on the ground is UV. About 5% of UV is UVB and about 95% is UVA. And as I said, ordinary clear glass blocks UVB but it allows UVA to pass right thru. And for those who are curious, about 46% of light that reaches us here is in the visible spectrum – which leaves 51% of light that reaches the earth as IR.
Thanks Oberon,
I'm reprinting it, one size larger, so that those of us with smaller screens can read it more easily.
All light is part of the Electromagnetic spectrum. We, as human beings, are biased toward the visible light portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. For the most part, unless it somehow directly affects us, we ignore the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum except for the visible light portion.
Considering visible light as the starting point, at the far end of the UV spectrum we find x-rays. When needed, we certainly do pay attention to x-rays – and with the relatively new awareness of the damage that UV light can do to our bodies, we have become much more aware of UV light in recent years as well.
How many folks buy sunscreen? How many folks use tanning booths? How many folks actually understand the difference between the UVA and the UVB labels that are printed on the bottles of sunscreen? Many people have heard that UV is a sanitizer – does all UV light sanitize or just some parts? Anyone ever buy a UV or “blacklight”? Does UV light affect plant growth? If so is it good or bad?
If you have a sunburn, you have experienced UV light directly. If you have ever moved a wall hanging or picture and have seen faded paint, you have experienced UV directly. If you have ever had a tan, you have experienced UV directly. You can sun-tan thru a piece of clear glass, but you can’t sun-burn thru a piece of clear glass. Why? Because ordinary clear glass is transparent to UVA and opaque to UVB and as it happens UVA is responsible for tanning your skin while UVB is responsible for burning your skin. So, obviously UVA is good and UVB is bad, right?
Not necessarily. UVB causes you to burn because your skin is relatively opaque to the UVB frequency range and the UVB “rays” can’t penetrate very deeply into your body. This results in red and uncomfortable surface layers – or sunburn.
UVA, on the other hand, penetrates those top layers of skin very easily which then stimulate melanin production which results in that nice dark tan. Unfortunately, since UVA penetrates relatively deeply it also may affect you at the cellular level resulting in those unfortunate lesions which we call skin cancer.
So while UVB causes you discomfort, UVA can kill you.
The blacklight that I asked about earlier radiates at 365nm (nanometers) which is right smack dab in the UVA spectrum. Does this mean that your innocent little blacklight could cause cancer? Nope, it is way too weak for that without massive exposure – way more than you need to worry about.
Anyone ever go to the doctor and have him or her use UV light as an anti-bacterial agent? If so, he/she was using UVC in that capacity. Notice I didn’t mention UVC in the earlier paragraphs? Well that is because UVC is blocked by the ozone in the upper atmosphere and doesn’t reach the ground. That is good because UVC is nasty stuff – it kills things. The very best reason for protecting the ozone layer is to ensure that UVC doesn’t reach the ground…that would not be a good thing.
Your doctor, swimming pool, hot tub, and whatever other germicidal purpose that uses it, likely is using UV light at 254nm to kill germs. Interestingly, UVC at 254nm also causes many minerals to fluoresce or to glow. Mineralogists use 254nm UV all the time to help identify certain minerals in rocks. Additionally, 254nm UV light also causes the tin-side of ordinary float (window) glass to glow as well. This allows glass folks to identify the tin or air side of a piece of glass which can be important in certain applications – such as applying LowE coatings or in laminating glass.
About 3% of sunlight that reaches us here on the ground is UV. About 5% of UV is UVB and about 95% is UVA. And as I said, ordinary clear glass blocks UVB but it allows UVA to pass right thru. And for those who are curious, about 46% of light that reaches us here is in the visible spectrum – which leaves 51% of light that reaches the earth as IR.
Thanks! I should have noticed that it came across smaller when I pasted it.
When I cannot wear my tinfoil hat (not stylish enough--I know, hard to believe, tin foil goes with anything), I've found that slathering my head in zinc oxide works almost as well, and it really holds the hair in place! Protects me from all those unwanted rays.
On a similar note, I read somewhere that vitamin C works as a sun screen--guess you mix the powder in water and apply it, but it seems like it would be sort of chalky.
Danno! Wonderful to hear from you, as always. You'll have to come by for our next pool party. We'll make you happy with your favorite hallucinogen and flip you over, every half an hour or so, until you're ready to serve. ;-)
Sounds good to me. (I'll drop by--only probably about a fifteen hour drive ('course that depends on what I've ingested on the trip.) I'm partial to those little colorful poison arrow tree frogs, and so appropriate for around the pool. I'll be the guy with the really white hair. ('course, that depends too!)