Synthetic Roofing Underlayment
Hey everybody, I just finished a house and used synthetic roofing underlayment for the first time. I’ve got to tell you, I will never use felt paper again if I can help it. I used a product called Titanium-UDL and is made by InterWrap in Canada.
It comes in four foot wide rolls and covers 10 squares on the roof. It is gray in color with blue writing and is textured for traction on the roof. It is rather expensive, but the benefits far outweigh the cost.
My crew and I were walking around on the material, cautiously of course, on an 11/12 pitch without toe boards. Have any of you used it before and if so what is your opinion of it. As far as I go, I am sold.
Mike Gavrillen
Ocean State Builders, Inc.
Wilmington NC
“My only limit is your imagination.”
Replies
We use it extensively..I love it as well.
Trick time: it cuts like butter if you use your tinsnips like a sliding scissor, just hold it taut and pretent you are cutting fabric ( my wife taught me that thick)...and it is faster and easier than using a razor knife. Being as I do copper roofs, I always have the snips handy, some others may not tho'.
It will degrade after a bit of sun exposure, we were on the dry in for a few months, and it will kinda "pill up" and get slick..so be careful.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" you? YOU!? Are actually listening to that CRAP????
How about? going to werk, how about"...I can't do it, it aint fair..but
HOW ABOUT THAT REZ GUY? UH HUH? ...He ain't Silesien I bet....wimp
I used it on my own roof project, and I too loved it. It was nice having just one roll that does 10 squares. Tougher than tarp and doesn't tear.
They make a claim that the light grey will help keep the roof cooler... though I'm not sure how that would happen under shingles. It was definitly nice to work with it under the beating SoCal sun though.
I also used some 75lb felt for some areas to even out some bumps... that SUCKED to work with in comparison.
RoofTopGuard II is another product out there that also comes in a 10sq. roll, but is 5' wide. It comes in a dark color though.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Is this like the Grace company product sold as a watershield? Can' think of the name. I have used the Grace stuff and its a world of difference from felt."Democracy is when the people know exactly what they want, and get it good and hard." HL Mencken
You may be thinking of "Ice and Water Shield", which is a sticky backed synthetic bitumen. It is used in valleys, roof edges, and the area over where your roof starts over living space to keep water from penetrating. It seals up around nails. It's rolls are usually 36" wide and covers 1.75sq., I believe.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
No. Ice and Water Shield is a peel and stick heavy product. The otheres replace roofing felt/tarpaper and are far superior to felt.
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I'm not sure which Grace product you're talking about.
Grace makes a great Ice and Water shield (as long as you're not the one installing it!) but that is a different animal all together than what it being discussed in this thread.
But, Grace also makes a product called Tri-Flex 30 that is comparable to Roof-Top Guard II. I just used in for the dry-in of my own second floor addition. It too comes in a 10 square roll that weighs just 30 pounds. I was very impressed with it's tear resistant properties as well as it's water resistance. 4" overlap and no stick down and it kept us totally dry during some late summer thunderstorm downpours. Nailed it down with roofing nails and 'silver dollar' roofing tins.
diesel,
I have experimented with the tryflex 30, rooftop gaurd, AND Titanium UDL.
In my opinion the tryflex 30 was the WORST stuff to work with solo-----actually harder to use than 30# felt--- was impossible to get flat on a steep roof---to " flimsy"---( might be ok on a 4/12 though)
did like the Titanium UDL----a little pricey if it is shingled over the same day , though, like I usually do.
Stephen
Hmmm, I'm surprised to hear that. The front of my house is a 12/12 and I followed my guys up as they sheathed it. I was rolling out the tri-flex by myself and nailing it down with tins and a roofing nailer and I kept catching up with them. I thought it was much easier to work with compared to felt, mainly because the roll held so much material, yet weighed so little.
Different strokes for different folks I guess. Maybe next time I'll try one of the others and find it even easier.
dieselpig,
In it's favor----the tryflex 30 girl in the ads ---is HOT.
But the product I found----I guess soft is the word-----when I rolled it out on a steep roof---it doesn't support itself well----and wants to sag down hill----making it harder to keep it straight and wrinkle free. I also thought it was a little slippery for my tastes. I think it was a 5ft. roll which was awkward also( this was 3-4 years ago.
The titanium udl------had the right amount of rigidity and traction----just wish it self sealed around nail punctures like the rooftop gaurd ( I found the rooftop gaurd too slippery when wet/damp from whatever.---that was the original rooftopgaurd product---and not rooftop gaurdII----I have never tried rooftopgaurd II)
get yourself a hitachi button cap nailer---ALL these underlayments install fast AND secure with the button cap nailer----even felt.
After seeing greencu use the titanium udl on that monster copper roof he pictured---- I am re-considering adding titanium udl to my standard package.
Stephen
Go for it..careful tho' , I said it will "pill up" and get a tad slick after time..grenncu wasn't up there everyday, it has the disadvantages just like anything else. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
HOW ABOUT THAT REZ GUY? UH HUH? ...He ain't Silesien I bet....wimp
I'm curious about that. I've also had TitaniumUDL up for months, contantly walking on it. I'm down in SoCal with a pretty hot sun but mild temps. There was stucco demolition debris, old roofing gravel and granit "sand" from decaying shingles, woods scraps, metal scraps, shingle bales everywhere, etc. Basicly I gave some areas ALOT of wear.
BUT - I did not experience the "pilling" or slipperyness you describe. Granted, I'm one person, and not on that surface every day for those months.
What were the circumstances that your underlayment went through? I'm going to use more of this in the future, so I'd like to understand it better.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Edited 11/15/2005 4:06 pm ET by xxPaulCPxx
It was just a hot summer here in Horse land, and what I saw was the "weave" would start to telegraph just befor it wadded up a tad..also, all 12/12 roof...no other traffic ( well I did notice that the dust from cutting in counters on the chimnies got REALLY slick, but so does the copper..so chicken ladder all the way).
Mighta been a batch thing, or just the situ of NOT having any traffic or rain on it..hell, we didn't have dew for months.
Glad to be done with that one is all I can say. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
HOW ABOUT THAT REZ GUY? UH HUH? ...He ain't Silesien I bet....wimp
Hey Sphere,
question I have been wanting to ask you or greencu,
On that copper job------- it looked like it went on for 3 months or so.
Even working section by section----you still must have had significant " open time"---------that is time when parts of the roof were just felted in ( or rather Titanium UDLed in )
Are you guys tarping off every night---or depending on the titanium udl?
do you guys---or greencu rather have anything written into the contracts about who is liable for water infiltration during the re-roofing process ?
I rarely,rarely,rarely,rarely ever leave anything felted in over night---what gets torn off gets roofed back in by end of day. Maybe 3 times in 18-20 years have I left something under felt overnight. I know that's not possible for you guys----so how are you protecting yourselves ?????
Reason I ask---see, I have this job coming up in the spring that may drag on a bit---- LOL
Stephen
That roof never saw a tarp. I saw that there was 90lb under the steel and I guess CU told Los Guys to leave it..so they did, and added Ice and water shiield around all the penetrations and valleys..then nothin but TiUDL for the remainder.
In actuality tho' they tore off just in front of us, so really nothing saw sunlight for more than a few weeks at most.
I don't have a clue how he words the dryin clause..but I guess his methods work well, we RARELY have a dry in issue ( leaks) unless swamped by suprise..which , in this business is a given at times.
In some places we ( installers) added a layer of rosin where we had soldering ( bitumen in a solder joint sucks) and also cuz it was so damm HOT, we couldn't stay on the I and W shield, with out getting cooked.
I am sure G man will be along shortly..I figgured rain all day and all we got was really high wind down here at mi casa. He might be mad at me..LOL Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
HOW ABOUT THAT REZ GUY? UH HUH? ...He ain't Silesien I bet....wimp
My titanium only covering got rained on a few times with no leaks. Almost tempted me to leave it up longer... almost.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Paul,
I have used the titanium udl several times----but it was shingled over by the end of the day.
However----the project I am planning will have what I consider significant open time.
about a 17/12 pitch, 14 valleys, 7 dormers, 3 with copper roofs, most likely miles of copper drip edge and copper valley flashing, copper waste stack flashing, copper roof vents. some copper gutters and downspouts, copper window pans. High profile location----and the most demanding of customers---me. Probably the last roof I do in my career with this level of risk. I am already riding an exercise bike an hour and a half a day to prep for it.
Stephen
How many Sq? How many helpers?..can ya not tear off old or is it new?
TiUdl is awesome, just back under with I and W and yer good to go..really.
No Staples...gotta nail it. And We also caulk wit geocel at dry in, at all the penetrations on tear off..
DO NOT CAULK where you will solder, and do NOT solder wher you caulked..trust me, they will not ever mix."Gocel and flux, flux and geocel never the two shall meet". Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
HOW ABOUT THAT REZ GUY? UH HUH? ...He ain't Silesien I bet....wimp
Woodstove?Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
Nope..lost the center dormer tho'.
I left the paddles in Dales truck..did 99% from the inside.
I hate wind and 200 yo Maple trees in the same sentance..these seams ain't squashed like ours, I got two males and a cap cover, and that farking cap is NOT what I can clamp onto, it peels away, so I started to rivet the cap pc. as I went up (10/12) ..no joy..drill died, riveter broke, and not enogh paddles...
It better not get stupider..I got the pregnant daughter ( step) and ele hubby showing up on Fri..to wire the rest of the upstairs before insul can be finished, befor the nonexistant woodstove arrives
I saw no need to cal ya at 0600, looked like a wash, but we had showers and then SUN..farke me ..
Heads up for morrow? same job? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
HOW ABOUT THAT REZ GUY? UH HUH? ...He ain't Silesien I bet....wimp
Sphere, Geencu
I am about 70% sure I am going to do this roof in the spring ( it's my house and I have other considerations as well)
for sake of conversation we will call it a little over 40 square.
I have done several roofs as steep as this, many as complicated, some in as high profile a location, some with the same level of materials etc.
but I don't think I have done more than 1 or 2 combining ALL these elements.
house originally had slate----that bad really soft Pennsylvania slate----that was torn off about 18 years ago ( I am finding pieces of it wedged in behind some of the old copper gutters)------after the slate---roof was replaced with Elk Prestique II----but high nailed-, and only 4 nailed--so a lot of the shingles are starting to slide down hill. shingles are still in decent shape---it's just a shame the installation is now allowing them to begin sliding off the roof.
since it's my house--- I will probably do it as" fill-in"---among paying gigs. I am planning to do the installation solo---with maybe a laborer to help with the heavy lifting------- but I will almost certainly have help on the tear-off.
No more than about 6 square will be open at a time.
If I can develope some faith in the titanium udl---- I expect this project to be a HUGE amount of fun.
A couple of years ago -- I did the roof on the new church my parish built( only a few blocks away)------knowing my family friends and neighbors would be " marrying and burying" under my roof for the next generation or so----I assumed THAt roof would be the pinnacle of my career.
THIS one however will be as close to my " masterpiece" as I can envision----and I am hoping the Titanium Udl---combined with my hitachi button cap nailer---will reduce my stress and put the fun back in this.
wish I could post some pictures of it.
Stephen
It'll do ya..fer sure.
I just informed Grant , I lost a fair part of my center dormer standing seam tern metal, yesterday..maple tree branch and wind.
As tough as that stuff is, it folded up nicely ( no grin), and I did get it flattened out again..but geeeze Louise, I like copper a whole lot mo betta.
Being as this roof ( I too, know what was on it, shakes) is from about 1909 according to the neighbors, I feel blessed.
I got a slew of screws and recrimped the seams..figgure it'll survive the winter...( he hopes) and be thinking of affording a new lid next yr. This was a close call, and I called the HO insurance just so maybe I can get paid for my time and matl's.
Now i gotta find a real good tree guy to keep it from a repeat encore. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
HOW ABOUT THAT REZ GUY? UH HUH? ...He ain't Silesien I bet....wimp
Ya,
I was just shaving down a door---while listening to the radio---heard you guys had a tornado down there in KY yesterday.
My grandma lives in Elizabethtown----think it missed her ?
Stephen
Btw---- I just sold a nice little roof ( on a small cape)-----to a old customer-----talking on the phone and typing to you----hows that for multi-tasking.
filling up my spring already.
Edited 11/16/2005 12:07 pm ET by Hazlett
I think Elizabethtown was not near the one that whacked out a " manufactured" home..all reports I hear is that one person died, an 85 yr old lady?
We had a ruff go of it here in MAdison Co....just now got back in from the main plane and found even more damage than I suspected. Mostly the valley joints..we use cleats and flat seams pounded down these days..my old roof is just lapped ( or was).
I riveted and screwed, and Lexcelled..gonna have to score some geocel from Grant to make it thru till spring I guess.
I hate wind.
Grant is right, them caps will get squishy over time..but 6 days? Yer covered for sure. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
HOW ABOUT THAT REZ GUY? UH HUH? ...He ain't Silesien I bet....wimp
" Nie dajê siê olœniæ statkami parowymi i kolej¹ ¿elazn¹. Wszystko to nie jest cywilizacj¹. - Francois Chateaubriand (1768 - 1848) "
I'd check out that Hitachi button cap nailer before you buy. I remember people saying some bad things about it jamming or just not being a good tool.
You might want to look at the new button staplers that are out there - but talk to the InterWrap people first. Every 8" it says NO STAPLES, but I don't think they ment button cap staples.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
the Bostich buttoncap/ stapler is a smooth working toolMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Paul,
I have owned the hitachi button cap nailer for several years. It shoots a small ring shank nail through a green button cap.
when working properly it is a wonderfull tool
BUT---it can be a little finicky----the buttoncaps come on a cardboard reel( like dressmakers ribbon?)---if that cardboard reel gets a little damp, deformed, slightly bent etc. ( that never happens roof top does it ? LOL)------- it will jamb.
so---there IS a little finagling with it EVERY day that you use it-----it is STILL way faster than hand banging button caps, much more secure than slapjack staples-----and all in all I can felt in solo with it about as fast as 3-4 guys handbanging.
Whatever is felted in with the button caps STAYS felted in.
however------if I was looking to buy NOW--- I would look hard at the hitachi button cap stapler which I have heard jambs less.
Hey----- Mike Smith------ Freddie Lu turned me on to this hitachi gun----member him ???????
Stephen
and I am hoping the Titanium Udl---combined with my hitachi button cap nailer---
If you're gonna have any significant open time on the Titanium, I wouldn't use gun cap nails. We've done several projects where the UV was breaking down the plastic caps so the staples could pull thru them. May be a specific brand of nails, but I won't get a cap nailer for that reason.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
greencu-----
my gun shoots a ring shank nail through the buttoncap.
By significant open time---- I anticipate no more than a week per section----probably no more than 2-3 days. To me----that's significant open time compared to my almost universal practice of shingled in by end of day-----but not significant compared to your 3 month open plan LOL
should I still be leary ?
BTW----any chance the ones you encountered were just overdriven ?
Stephen
Edited 11/16/2005 1:35 pm ET by Hazlett
should I still be leary ?
BTW----any chance the ones you encountered were just overdriven ?
The ones I'm talking about drive a staple thru the cap. The caps seem thinner. I don't know the brand. New construction where the framer put the dry-in on is where I've seen this.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
It's not just your nail or staple caps. I lost a bunch of hand nailed button caps to fatigue. They just aren't ment to be walked on day after day... or at all, really. Their strength is in numbers. Even though I lost some caps, I still had no tearouts - the other caps held tight.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Stephen,
Some of that roof was open for nearly the full three months. This particular roof was steep and had some kind of torch grade dry-in on it originally. It would have leaked like a sieve if it hadn't - that green steel roof was a total hack job.
As far as "who pay's if it leaks?", I usually do. I spend about $500 a year on painting and repairs. It's mostly minor stuff and related to box gutter relining. If it's a major F/U on a sub's part, I'll deduct it from what I owe them and run them out of town with a switch. It's been years since I've had to cut one.
I tried RTGII and liked it. I didn't see any evidence of it sealing around nails. I tried Titanium and liked it better. As far as getting covered up on what you tear off each day, I'm in KY. Yesterday they said 80% chance of severe thunderstorms for today. I told Duane to stay home. It never rained a drop - It's 75 and the sun's shown all day. The opposite can happen. I insist on doing a dry-in as if a storm will be here in an hour and it's gonna bring 2' of snow. Doesn't always get done, but that's what I'm after.
Probably the last roof I do in my career with this level of risk.
Use Titanium and ice guard as temporary flashings. Man, I'm considerably older than you and I've been saying the same thing for ten years. Then, I get offered something like this last one and I can't say "NO". I love a challenge. Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
Actually, RTG2 is now made in a light grey. The black is way to hot to work on.
Based on what I had read here previously, and a friend's experience, I used Titanium-UDL when I roofed my house this year.
It was only an 8 square section of the roof, but I was working alone ... just a few hours a day. White cedar shingles over Cedarbreather. The Titanium-UDL was exposed in some areas for more than a month as the only roof covering, with no problems. No leaks; no noticable degradation.
I used only one roll of the Titanium-UDL, so cost wasn't an issue. The Cedarbreather, however, was very pricey.
InterWrap Inc claims a 6-month UV rating for Titanium-UDL.
I also found it easy to walk on, though a bit slippery when wet.
http://interwrap.com/Titanium-UDL/titanium-index.html
I also found it easy to walk on, though a bit slippery when wet.
The first time I used the stuff, we had a heavy dew. My guys got up on the roof near the ridge (4/12) and the temp dropped below freezing. It iced up immediately. They couldn't get back to their ladder at the eave. I had to come move the ladder tho the ridge to get them off. Thank heaven for cell phones.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/