beginning of last week u memtioned u would tell us what youse did to cure the situation.
impression i remeber u would tell us by end of last week.
did i miss it?
bobl Volo Non Voleo
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Old masonry may look tough, but the wrong mortar can destroy it—here's how to choose the right mix for lasting repairs.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
So that you all understand what we have done here it is: Every new registrants' first post goes into a queue which we will review and then approve. Yes this means that there may be a delay of up to 48 hours say on a weekend for instance. But then after the intial post has been approved the user is then able to post to there hearts content as long as they abide by the terms of service... Break the terms of service and you will never see your posts appear on the site again. It is unfortunate that we had to take such drastic measures.
If you have questions or problems posting please don't hesitate to email me. As Always you can reach me at [email protected]
For Now...
Bobl,
Heres the message that I posted last week explaining, if you still have questions let me know and I will gladly answer them.
-Mark
SYSOP
[email protected]
Edited 7/17/2003 9:42:24 AM ET by SYSOP
Not sure I understand...if the first post is nice and polite and so forth, then the participant is given free reign for life? You have a really tough job, one that I wouldn't want (unless I got a free FHB hat maybe), but I'm not sure that this is the answer. But then I have no clue what the answer is. Don't tell me the details of the dark secretrs, but do tell me that there is stuff you can't talk about, procedures you are implementing to control the forum...
Do it right, or do it twice.
Edited 7/17/2003 10:20:50 AM ET by ELCID72
Ok there were 64 messages by time I read this thread, so I’m going to admit I didn’t read approx. the last 61 messages. With that said my apologies if I’m repeating something already suggested.
On a few other forums I’ve monitored in the past there is an option for members to complain about a specific poster. When that member gets a specific number of complaints within a certain time period his/her account is immediately shut down. Then the moderator(s) decide whether to reinstate posting status or not.
That would be a nice option here on Breaktime.Scott R.
If you'll read the few posts previous to yours, you'll see that indeed it is so..
Excellence is its own reward!
Actualy, the option to report a particular post is there.
But an account is not suspended automaticaly, after a certain number of reports.
I think that would be a good option to have here. With caveats....
Foremost... The total "number of reports", (that it takes to temorarily suspend an account), has to consist of reports by unique usernames. No repeat reports from the same username count in that total number.
Second, the number of reports can't be some ridiculously low number.
Third, maybe the "tnor" should center on one post, and not just the "tnor" on that person overall, all over the board.
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Shouldn't be anything automatic. There are very few trolls here over the years and the sysops have a new gun with which to shoot them. Moderating new posters, plus giving someone on the weekends the ability to kick them back to moderation should cover 99% of all cases. The other 1% get to feel special while they sneak in a few extra posts, but then they're gone too. Let the new system work or not work before we reinvent it.
In dealing with trolls the best plan remains to identify them and follow with ignore. Never answer their posts and refer to them in the third party or as "it".
It drives them nuts as was seen with the martin troll. I had the least amount of contact with it and it retaliated with vile personal attacks until it totally lost it.
As a group, we know a troll and we should be able to deal effectively with them.
I think that the new measures will go a long way to mitigate their damage to this board.
Gabe
So if everyone else gets to play someone who am I cast as? The navy seal that stays in the shadows and comes out into the light only when needed? Working in Stealth mode...
As has been pointed out by many the more Troll defenses we put up the tighter things become for you the users and even more so for new users. I believe the steps we have taken are a good compromise between keeping the forums "open" and also keeping the Trolls out. As Luka has pointed out if you see a post that you don't think should be there Report it using the report violation under the options link. Or at the least email me directly at [email protected] this way we can take action very quickly if need be.
For now...
SYSOP[email protected]
(p.s. sorry Gabe this was supposed to be addressed to all)
Edited 7/21/2003 9:49:07 AM ET by SYSOP
Is it possible to prevent someone from just getting a new account under a new name and with a different ip address or even a different isp (yahoo or hotmail acct?)? How far can one go in tracking down people who don't play nice and preventing them from relentlessly resurfacing? Not asking what you did here, but just what's possible with the administration of any forum like this. I have a yahoo group, and we qualify membership and can moderate posts, but seem to have no further tools.
sorry
guess i missed it, even tho i was looking.bobl Volo Non Voleo
The best solutions are to block IPs if you can, otherwise just ignore the culprit.
I've also seen boards block any members trying to use hotmail/yahoo/etc. email accounts for verification. Unfortunately, that can hurt some legitimate users as well.
As for the moderating of the first post, I can see that being more of a bother for some people than a benefit for everyone else. But, hey, whatever works...
The reason they went to this (as I understand) is that our troll was finding ways around all the stuff they'd tried before. If you block hotmail accounts, he can use yahoo. Block yahoo, and anyone can use MSN.com, etc.
I don't know about the IP address thing - The troll might have figures out a way around that too.
This option was put into place to block one specific troll, who kept circumventing the login restrictions.
Basically it's no different now for regulars. We can post as we always have. The only difference is an unfortunate one for new signups - They have their first post held hostage until the SYSOPs can make sure they're not the troll. That's unfortunate, but probably unavoidable given the persistence of the troll.
This also means that any regular who goes postal on us can be banned, and not be allowed back in. You may recall before that a couple of people were banned, then came back under different names and started posting again.
And I'm sure the SYSOPs will continue to censor threads that are out of line.
All in all, I'd say it's worked. I haven't seen or heard anything about the troll since this was implemented. I think it's been worth the change.I'd rather french kiss a skunk.
"This also means that any regular who goes postal on us can be banned, and not be allowed back in. You may recall before that a couple of people were banned, then came back under different names and started posting again."
Actually with the new system ANYONE can get back in with a new name. As long as there first post is on the level (or plumb).
But what it realy does it to prevent the spamming of junk post.
"Actually with the new system ANYONE can get back in with a new name. As long as there first post is on the level (or plumb). "
Maybe - I don't know exactly what happens to the first post of newbies. Maybe they can tell if it's a troll from the IP address or other info that's included in the login stuff.
It definitely keeps the troll from setting up a new account on Friday night and trashing the place over the weekend. For every action, there is an equal and opposite government program.
First post moderation is a tool that we have had since day 1 of Prospero but one that we where very reluctant to implement because we felt that would take away some of what makes these forums so great. It is unfortunate that a Troll forced us to take these steps but in the end the forum is going to be a much better place.
Without giving away all of our secrets I will explain a little more about how this works. We have several options for approving posts if the user is suspect we will grant them the ability to post once if it is an old time user that hasn't been around for a while then we give them full posting privileges, if it is a troll the post goes into cyber space never to be seen again. This gives us the comfort to know that on weekends and nights we can rest easy knowing that the Trolls won't be overrunning the place. The people that are really most affected by this are the forum Moderators as they are the ones that have to keep on top of all the new posts. All in all though I feel that this will help keep these forums Troll free and allow you users to concentrate on what your here for the exchange of great information (or to share a laugh or two or to...)
Well gotta run the Black helicopter just landed and I need to start my surveillance operations again... SYSOP[email protected]
Well, as you can see, the troll has slipped under the bridge, to be ready for another insanitation situation.
Crafty lil bugger.
I think the best thing you could do it allow a few trusted members to have plug pulling privilages over the nights and weekends. Troll patrol, to be used in case of emergency. I nominate Luka, (but don't let him delete me), and Piffin, (and he can if I get too far out).
We can clean our own mess up, Sys, and what you are doing only delayed a couple of nice folk I recommended here.
Thanks for the nomination.
You really think I'm objective enough to handle the job? .
Excellence is its own reward!
do you need to be objective?
the guy is banned, so no matter how nice he is he doesn't belong here.
and I've thought the same thing Matt has, give it to you and Luka I think you are both trustworthy enough to handle it.Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
It would be to act as bouncer, or gaurd of the drawbridge once determinations have been made, not to act agressively for other posts that can be handled by regulat Tauntonians in the Castle L'Engle.
Just to keep the place clean. .
Excellence is its own reward!
That's an excellent idea and great nominees. I have seen some really well run sites kept clean with a few judicious user moderators. ...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
I have been on this board for maybe 6-9 months, and have not experienced the "troll". I am not a heavy user either, a few free minutes here and there through the weekdays. It must be a really terrible experience.
If the obnoxiousness is a vast number of posts, why not limit the number of posts someone can send in a time period? I would think there is some statistical average # that people put out and a higher # for obnoxiousness.
remodeler
The intrusive posts were more like bad flatulence--even one was enough to stink up the whole place.
"bad flatulence" LOL
More like intentional diarhea at a nudist colony, IMO.
Excellence is its own reward!
...why not limit the number of posts someone can send in a time period? "
I think you may really be onto something there. I emailed the idea to the sysop, just to make sure they saw it. Q: What's the difference between a liberal and a shopping cart?A: A shopping cart has a mind of its own.
I dunno about the limit idea Boss. Some of us have days where 10-15 posts over the course of a day isn't uncommon. Any way I can think of to set a post limit for a given time period wouldn't do the job without killing us regulars.
If it's say...20 posts in a day, won't keep trolls out. If it's 5 posts/day it'll keep everybody out.
Mike
Don't use a grenade to kill a mosquito.
This whole issue that Andy and Mark have to deal with is similar to national security. How much freedom and convenience do regular citizens need to give up to have security? And the troll has a lot of parallels to the behaviour of Yassar Arrafat and some other well known terrrorists..
Excellence is its own reward!
It'd be interesting to fill in the rest of the characters in this drama. Does Andy get cast as Ashcroft or Reno? Do people support lessening the rights of everyone to stop the terrorists, or value freedom above all? We need Walker to represent the ACLU, kai and pi to stand in for the peace-niks, Mr T as Bill Maher, Gabe can be Chretien (sorry, Gaabe, had to do it!), Andy C can get arrested for protesting something or other and be put under teepee arrest, Jaybird could be Bush be/c he always sticks up for him except he's much smarter, Pete D would make a great Rumsfeld, and Boss could be Powell be/c he's turned into quite the diplomat. Continuing on with my plan to alienate everyone here, I'd cast Phill as Phill, Mike as some elder statesman like Kerry, Theo as the foxy head of the Library of Congress, Frenchy as Hans Blix, PaulP as the CIA because he gets the facts right just about as often. And of course, you'd be Cheney, the person who really runs the whole show anyway. And me? I'm gonna be the person tiling a bathroom today...
LOL
I'd put Andy C in as Hans Blix. Gunner could be the right wing head of Isreal, I wanted Rumsford but I'll accept the compliment as Chenney. We need a position for Gabe now - ever here of Rush Limbaugh?
Brian is a retired military general. Kidd is now overseeing the guns.
Jencar - I'm thinking Barbara Streisand, but I'm afraid of insulting her.
Who wants to step up for ex-POTUS Carter?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Gunner is perfect for Sharon! Good thinkin'. I like the irony of Gabe as Chretien, no? Oui! Jencar/Streisand is good. Beckman/Robbins and Jencar/Sarandon also works for me. Or Theodora and Jen can flip for those spots. Couldn't come up with a Luka character, though he has a bit of the wild-eyed David Kelly look (though he's now deceased, sorry David, sorry Luka). Can't remember who I'm forgetting... (maybe that means I'm Reagan!) Sorry...
'Gabe as Chretien'..?
I'm not sure if that's an insult to Gabe--remember, Jean Chretien is capable of shoving his foot into his mouth in both official languages even though he can hardly speak either one intelligibly.
I've got no opinion on Dubbya--but I'd sure have liked to see how JFK and PET would have handled the garbage we're dealing with today. I've got a feeling the results would have been similar but the style would have been far far superior....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
If I really thought Gabe was a good match for him, I wouldn't have said it!!! I believe I know what Gabe thinks of his fearless--or is it feckless?--leader. He'll see the humor in it...I hope.
I give up--PET?
Pierre Elliot Trudeau. He was brilliant, fearless, and essentially uninterested in politics. He only became Prime Minister because his country needed him. As soon as that was no longer true, he went back to doing what he really liked: skiing, reading, thinking, and writing.
We could do with a few more like him, but you only get lucky like that once in every four or five generations.
Try this link: http://archives.cbc.ca/400d.asp?id=1-71-162-429-20
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Well one thing we can do to help the good guys with the guns is whenever we encounter a troll is to post the words "Delete Me" in the thread to the Sysop. If it worked, all they would have to monitor is "with unread messages "To Me""
SamTSleepless in Columbia. Diurnal rhythm? What songs did they do?
Go to the bottom of any post. You'll see the word "options".
Once the page is fully loaded, you can put the cursor over that word, and you'll find a menu.
In that menu is, "report a violation.
Use that to report the post.
The sysop does not need to do any search at all
: )
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Thanks Luka, I've never used "Options" before.
What're you doing up ATT?
SamTSleepless in Columbia. Diurnal rhythm? What songs did they do?
AHH HA! One of the best pieces of advice so far. Then it's a simple matter of the sysop checking his mail once in a while.Who Dares Wins.
"Gunner is perfect for Sharon! Good thinkin'."
I'm ready to start blasting. Let me at em. Who Dares Wins.
"...Boss could be Powell be/c he's turned into quite the diplomat."
Really ???
It wasn't intentional....................(-:Diplomacy: Telling someone to go to hell, and convincing them that they will enjoy the ride.
Anybody but Reno!Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator
Knew you're appreciate the humor! Just going by similarity of facial hair. <G>
Yup, although I really, really hate those suckers! I try to kill every one I see.
Mike
At peace with nature.LOL
A grenade doesn't seem out of line.
"Some of us have days where 10-15 posts over the course of a day isn't uncommon. "
I wasn't thinking of limiting the posts per day. I was thinking more like you can't post more often that 5 times in 10 minutes, or something along those lines.
The last time the troll trashed the board, he just kept posting the same message, over and over - Possibly more than one a minute until one of the Taunton staff cut him off.
That wouldn't kep a troll out, but would limit their attacks on the board. Maybe it could be set so there was a limit of one per hour until you'ver been a member for 3 days?I feel so miserable without you, it's almost like having you here.- [Stephen Bishop]
I was thinking more like you can't post more often that 5 times in 10 minutes, or something along those lines.
That seems pretty reasonable. Good idea Boss.
I agree, Good idea Boss.
It might also cut down on some of the personal attacks. Give people time to stop and think before posting.
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Once I stopped thinking in terms of a daily total limit, I agree. Good idea.
I know the pen can be mightier than the sword, but I never thought we'd need a "cool down period" for posts as well as handgun purchases!
Mike
Ahhh, that's workable. I was stuck thinkin' about a daily limit...
Carry on ;)
Mike
"The best solutions are to block IPs if you can"
The problem with that is most posters have dynamic IP's. So you can't block just one.
What you can do, if the problem is bad enough, is to complain to their ISP. And if the ISP does not respond then you can block that ISP.
Now I don't know if the PIQ (person in question) had another account, but he did have an AOL account. And if they blocked up blocking AOL then AOL will shortly have enough complaints that they would have to respond.
The feature laden Prospero software doesn't provide ip addresses, and their troll advice is here if you want to look. This sounds like what Sysop is doing now.
Sure, anyone can get around this if they want to, and I expect we haven't seen the last of the derailed one.
That thread had a pointer in to this one.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/hosting/messages?msg=5.1
"TOS cannot monitor messages in your forum for you. TOS cannot set a watch for new accounts. TOS cannot block IP addresses except in extraordinary cases; blocks are not effective anyway and easy to get around. TOS cannot go to court for you. TOS will not give away personal information or write to ISPs or employers about troublemakers."
Apparently they do have it available in "extraordinary cases".
Start posting a series of message offering child porn and I am sure that the IP address WILL BE FOUND and traced back to you.
Also realize that Delphi is a "retail" service. While Taunton is buyign wholesale.
Go into a dealership and want to buy an F350, but with some of trim and stuff off of an F150. They will either laugh at you or charge you for two trucks, but the cost of making the changes.
Go in as a utility company and want to buy a 1000 of them and they will just ask "and what other custom features do you want"?
I've gotten numerous "friendly" e-mails from you know who. Seems that since I tried to become rational and thoughtful and compassionate with him he befriended me.
After finding out that he got kicked out of JLC as well as here theres too many questionable thoughts about this individual and the time I seemed to have wasted trying to talk with him.
Once again.....my only thought is to not converse with him or you too shall be kicked outta here....two strikes and yer also out.....theres graffiti all over the world but Teflon has its place.
Be Teflon
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
That's his MO, Andy. Rant on and chum up with whoever happy talks him.
Dozens of us have tried to tell him he is welcome, just lose the bull, but he is into it for the bull. He is an virulent strain of virus that feeds off good and bad, and in the absence of food feeds off of himself.
Toss him in the tipi with a steady diet of mushrooms and you might get somewhere, but don't hold your breath.
Mark, I e-mailed you earlier this week or the weekend on why my posts were deleted in my thread "A Leg To Stand On". Did you ever get that?????
I didn't use the "forumhelp" e-mail address, maybe that was the problem?
Will
PS: Oh, and on a travel bulletin board I have been on for years now, we had a similar problem with a couple spammers. The site took some pains to get rid of these individuals, but finally did. What a waste of bandwidth that some individuals take to muck up a bulletin board. The cyber world really is the "real" world where there are malcontents in both pieces of space; real and otherwise.
Edited 7/17/2003 12:23:13 PM ET by Wiley
Wiley,
It might have been an unintentional deletion with all the posts that we had to remove last week yours might have been a "casualty of war" my apologies. I will look through what we have as they have all been saved, for legal reasons, and if I come across it I will be sure to repost.
If you do need to get in touch with me the forumhelp email is the best place to send anything.SYSOP[email protected]
Mark, no worries, I just didn't know if I was being "marked" (I hear that chopper sound above) for something I wrote or did.
If it's a legal thingie, I understand. I was just hoping to have the whole thread intact and was only trying to post updates in that one thread instead of starting multiple threads which some posters have written works better (the former, not the latter) than making multiple posts on the same issue. I'm still waiting for my court judgment and thought I would post the results and final thoughts. Also, some family and friends were asking about the small claims case and I was just going to direct them to this site and thread instead of rehashing the whole issue to them verbally. So since all my posts were deleted, there's no background to the issue, and there's only just replies which are out of sync to anything that happened.
No biggie, just my...well, amost 4 cents now. ;-)
Why so many deleteions in this thread?
Looks like the troll was back.
Hey, if he comes in with a legitimate question, or his first post otherwise sounds legitimate, he could be allowed to post.
But at least they are catching the posts and deleting them. I am sure that every one of them that is caught is immediately banned as well. (I am also sure that if I am wrong about any of this, I will be corrected by Sysop. LOL)
IMO, what they are doing is very effective. It should stop a lot of spam and trolls at the door. What is left is cleanup. And it looks to me like they are a lot more on top of cleanup than before. Methinks that Handy Andy, Marky Mark, and Jimmy da Kidd are going the extra mile, and are checking in many times during their off hours. Nights and weekends. Good job, guys. We do appreciate it.
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Thanks Luka, and you're right, all of us are checking in from home occasionally now.
Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator
Ocassionally? I heard you where online for almost 6 hours last night... I was on the other 6...SYSOP[email protected]
Is there anything beyond ignore that any of the rest of us can do to help? Like luvditchburns, I refer clients and others to this site, and professionalism is paramount. Some of the nonsense that's gone on makes me wanna keep people away!
Yeah -- Report violations. Also, be aware that we're taking a proactive approach that may inconvenience newbies. Be sure to let anyone you encourage to visit know that it may take up to 48 hours for their first post to appear. While that's unfortunate, it's a result of the recent episodes of vandalism, and the hope is that all legetimate users will benefit. Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator
A good thing to tell newbys... Is to tell them to try to register and make their first post, during the early part of any business day.
Maybe youse guys could get Prospero to add something along those lines to the registration page ?
Just tell people to try to make their first post early on a business day, and that if they post during a weekend or evening, they may not see their post appear for more than 63 hours. (5 pm friday, to 8 am monday.) Could be even longer if it is a holiday...
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
I suggested we help pay for the additional cost by subscribing, renewing subs, buying Taunton books and stuff.
Afterall, the issue of just where the financial support for this website comes from has been made clear in many earlier posts. From the paragraph above.
If we feel Andy's gang has done US a special service, we should understand just what motivates them. I appreciate their fine efforts. I signed up and bought a bunch of unnecessary things just to help out. More of us need to do the same. Piffin said he was going to renew his sub as a result.
But don't count on a hat. I didn't get one with my shipment that just came yesterday.
But a question - Do I have to go get the new issue from Borders, or will my new subscription come soon enough to include it?
I can't say if your sub will start with the current issue (Aug/Sep) or not, but I can tell you it's destined to be a collector's item, so stop at nothing to get 1 or 10. :)
I know my sub is current and I've bought a coupla design books from them recently.
Hey, maybe all of this trollnicity is just a Taunton plot to increase the renewal rate!?!?!?!
Hey, maybe all of this trollnicity is just a Taunton plot to increase the renewal rate!?!?!?!
If so, they certainly sucked me in!!! (;^0)
Cereally, I'm not so sure these old carps can think as fast as you can!
But we do need to encourage contributions to the improvement of this site - however such improvement is defined.
Depends on if you checked "Start with the current issue".Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator
Seems your "drastic measures" weren't drastic enough.If we keep doing what we're doing, we're going to keep getting what we're getting. [Stephen Covey]