I was at Lowes today looking at roof shingles and saw some that were called T-shingles (I think). I have never seen them before! do they have a special pupose and are they hard to put up? I didn’t want ask anyone there. I thought I’d get a good answer Here.
Ward
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temporary shingles...ya put them up till the real ones get delivered..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
You ought to be asahmed of yourself.
ya mean they're not?..ooops.
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So they interlock for high wind areas...Thanks
Ward
Well the way I roof they might be there untill I hire someone. But they were T shaped?
Were they t-lock shingles?
OK that sounds right!
Ward
They interlock from one course to the next. I believe the theory is that they withstand wind better than 3-tab shingles, but I have no idea how the actual performance compares. I've seen them. I installed some on one job 30 years ago. I don't recall ever seeing them mentioned in FHB, and I've got a complete collection up through last year.
There was a funny story in Domebook II about a commune building a 40' diameter dome in the mountains in California, how they drove a whole truck load of t-lock shingles up the mountain, realized that you can shingle a cylinder with t-locks, but you can't shingle a hemisphere with t-locks, and trucked the whole load back down the mountain. The funny part is that the dome was faceted, and they could easily have shingled each flat face with t-locks and put ridge shingles over the joints just like you do with hips and ridges.
<and I've got a complete collection up through last year. >
Dunc- through last year, aye? Care to expound on what happened?
Inquiring minds just gotta know
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. [Helen Rowland]
I was short of money when it was time to renew last year. Didn't renew, and found I didn't miss it that much. Like a number of people have said in the Feedback folder, it seems like the Fine has been leaching out of FHB for some time. I think the first time I really noticed it was the article on installing built up beams.
It piqued my interest when you said that in that I jumped shipped last year and it got me thinking if others had also.
Actually I'm thinking of re-upping solely out of respect for breaktime and the folks here.
Always believed that if I dance then the band ought to get paid.
Sure hope they end up sounding better than the neighborhood garage band tho'.
For now, I guess I'm hoping the little dab of information or humor I can offer occasionally will suffice to pay my freight. We'll see what happens if I ever have income again.
They're "interlocking shingles", or something like that. If you visit Fargo, ND, virtually every home has them, since Fargo is the windiest city in the US.
I helped reroof a garage with them up there, about 15 years ago. The shingles aren't hard to install, but they go on quite a bit slower, since you have to interlock the tabs as you slide them into place, and since a single shingle covers a bit less area.
We just followed the instructions on the back of the package and had no problem. You do need, however, some matching roll roofing or 3-tabs to do the starter strip and cap, as you can't use the interlocking shingles for that.
They are T-locks and they were developed in the early days of asphalt shingles before sealdowns. Believe it or not, the three tab shingles were once sold with no sealant strip and if you lived in even a moderately windy place, you had to stick each and every tab down.
T-locks can lay almost as fast as three tabs once you get the technique down. I've laid sixteen squares in a day several times. Thery make fairly good recovery shingles too for roofing over an older roof, because the pattern will hide telegraphing better. They are harder to lay though. It can be easy to get off pattern and then lose the locks on a few shingles.
Eave edge treatment is different too. You lose the wind lock at cuts so you have one of two options, Either use a gravelgausrd style metal to buffer the wind, or seal down with pukey. ( oops, that's an inside trade name for Plastic Roofing Cement)
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Years back a house next door had those T-lock shingles still on there after 50 some years. They replaced them cause the granules were wearing off.
Place had these giant old maples in the front and side so the roof was almost always protected from the sun.
A couple of things about Tlocks, Ward.
1) they are without a doubt the UGLIEST shingles available.
2)Around here use of Tlocks will indicate( generally) really,really poor workmanship.
The contractors using them Sub everything out
the gable ends of the roofs will be Face nailed withbox nails
no flashing will be replaced---but a heavy layer of roof cement will be slathered around chimneys,waste stacks,skylights etc.
I have torn off a zillion of these roofs----never seen Tlocks used as an original roofing material---I have often seen them used as a 2nd layer install-----but most frequently seen them used as a 3rd layer install.( any roofer will tell you what nightmares usually lurk under a 3rd layer install)
In short ,in my area , I wouldn't touch em under any circumstances.
but what the f@#$ do I know?---that's just my opinion.
One thing about these shingles is that they do, rather cheaply, provide a somewhat more "textured" appearance, similar to the laminated or pseudo-laminated shingles. If that's what interests you.
Also, because of the way they interlock, they sort of space themselves, if you follow the directions. (Don't start from the ends and work toward the middle!) So really they're good for amateur installation.
"Around here use of Tlocks will indicate( generally) really, really poor workmanship. "
That sounded kind of odd to me. I've only dealt with T-lock shingles once. Seems to me they were at LEAST 50% more than 3 tab shingles.
So if the workmanship on the roofs you mentioned was poor, I would expect to hear that they used the cheapest shingles possible.
What did I miss here?If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. [Will Rogers]
Boss,
you are confusing workmanship with material.
I don't care for the Tlock style---but the MATERIAL they were fabricated from was pretty good---a heavy weight organic shingle.
Keep in mind that the Tlock pattern is more of a single coverage application---the material HAS to be heavy to get anykind of life span at all. compared to a 3 tab or dimensional shingle which is a double coverage application due to the overlap.
I think my remarks about the workmanship I see used with these things was pretty clear-----------
Keep in mind --also----that I was referring to MY area.
Here---these Tlocks are really only sold by one contractor---and they are marketed as a re-roofing shingle----who stocks and buys them direct from the manufacturer. they are installed by subs---who "just nail on shingles". no flashing is replaced.
Here---they are marketed to the vulnerable.widows,elderly,very low income types.We don't find them on homes owned by the relativly affluent----or even moderately middle class.in fact even the landlords don't really use 'em.
Here the pitch generally is something like" We can save you the cost of tearing of the 2 layers of shingles you already have on the roof.sign here ---we will start Tuesday". the contract that is signed---for what will be a 3rd layer installation---is often MORE than what a quality tear-off and re-roof with other materials would have cost.
and HERE you won't see these Tlocks used in municipalities requiring permits and inspections---or ones which limit roofing to 2 layers.-----that should tell you something.
BUT----I am curious about one thing. If Tlocks are supposed to be so wind resistant---------how come I don't see them used at the beach. Every year I rent a house at the ocean for a week or 2----I never see Tlocks there.
The t-lock shingles are every bit as much of a double-coverage shingle as the three-tabs and they are totally wind resistant.(unless a tornado takes your roof off) If you're seeing them installed without proper flashing, then again this is directly related to the roofer and not the shingles. They would be installing the three-tab the same way. We always used the proper flashing techniques when we shingled, regardless of whether we were using three-tab or t-lock.
As far as the actual quality, like I posted a couple of threads back, you can get the same year-gaurantee with either. As with any roof job it is always better to strip the roof first and start over. Cheaper in the long run!
Duey,
I think I was pretty clear to point out that my remarks---in both posts---referred to the workmanship I see in my area------.
also---regaurding double coverage--------
We are almost definitely referring to 2 different things when we speak of Tlocks-------the ones I am thinking of are about16-18 inches wide and are kind of hour glass shaped. I have torn of tons of these---and the interlock area around the perimiter of the shingle is double coverage---but the field---the center exposed part of the shingle---isn't what I would call double coverage.---but hey---maybe I am wrong
As someone else has already pointed out----this is largely a regional thing. In my phonebook I have approx. 140 other roofing contractors advertising----------and probably AT LEAST that many local small companies who DON'T advertise in the yellow pages. So---out of approx. 280 contractors-----2 are known for interlocking shingles---and NEITHER of those is really local.
so----in my area it's reasonable to say that there is an OVERWHELMING bias against interlocking shingles. It might well be different in your area.
also----since I make my living from this( roofing)----I make it a point to offer my customers NO BRANDS that can be purchased at Home Depot or Lowes.As an independent contractor----selling materials that can be purchased through Lowes or Home depot would be short sighted and counter productive.
Best wishes to you. stephen
When I have seen T-locks blow off it is always two or three near the ridge, about two or three courses down where wind velocity is highest from the venturii over the ridge. But it is also true that the particular ones that blow off were not correctly installed. Lack of care in attending to alignement allwed them to be laid loose without snugly fitting into the lock tab. sometimes this is where they have run off because of the uneveness of an overlay or sagging roof structure. It does take a flat roof plane to lay T-Locks properly without fighting them.
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I wasn't trying to give you a hard time - Just curious.
Generally it seems like I see poor quality workmanship and poor quality materials going together.There is no psychiatrist in the world like A puppy licking your face. [Ben Williams]
No problems at all Boss.
however-----I would like someone to explain to me why I never see Tlocks at the beach if they are supposed to be so wind resistant?
could it be that they are so freakin ugly?
Why is every home, from the lowliest hovel on up, built of brick in Toronto?
Perhaps the head archy came from St.Loius.
Don't know about Toronto. It was that way in Denver until well after WWII to prevent or slow the spread of fires.
Why is every home, from the lowliest hovel on up, built of brick in Toronto?
Not sure where this question came from on a thread about T-lock shingles, but there's always a first time for a Breaktime thread to digress. :-)
Houses in Toronto are built of brick because that's what they've always been sided with in this geography. Brick is more expensive than most siding materials, but to do otherwise in Toronto would make your house stand out in a way that is rarely beneficial to resale. As well, there are lots of bricklayers in Toronto because that's what everyone uses, so the labour is available and priced right.
Houses also get bricked in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area for you non-Ontarians) because the land is so ridiculously expensive, that the added cost of brick is a proportionally smaller cost. A tear-down house in my brother's neighbourhood recently sold for $850k (for those of you shocked by this cost: keep in mind that this was an extra wide lot: probably 60 feet by 130!). If the lot costs you $850k, and all the surrounding homes are bricked, I think you'll pay the measly extra $30k for brick, or $70k for stone.
Having said that, if you look at the cheaper houses (under about 2000 sq feet) going up in the GTA (since there isn't really any land left available in Toronto, anyway), more and more are getting vinyl, at least for the upper story or sides not facing the street. Anything 2500 sq ft and above is probably still getting brick.
One of the things I enjoy about this forum is reading about these regional building techniques/choices. Toronto certainly has it's very narrow subset of choices.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Naw, It's a matter of survival!
They drive about 120KPH up htere so the brick gives you a modestly better chance of surviving the impact when a fellow Ontarionian leaves the road suface and strikes your dwelling while you are watching re-runs on the TV
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120kph? You musta been in the slow lane...or behind a cell phone user. :-)
I think you're pretty close on the money, Piffin, except there was a notorious case of brick not stopping a dump truck exiting the highway in North Toronto a few years back. Brakes failed, went thru the T-intersection and a woman died almost exactly as you described.
On the other hand, another formerly common Toronto building technique is hefty poured concrete front steps (nowadays they're mostly hollow precast). I remember from my childhood 4 local drunk teenagers driving at least 60mph in a 25mph zone, and failing to negotiate a sharp 90 degree turn. That big ole Dodge moved those steps a good several feet. Killed all 4 instantly. Woke up the homeowners.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
steve, beauty is in the eye of the beholder - - I special ordered t-locks for my barn (gawd, that was 1978) because I like the look - larger elements - 3-tabs just look puny - - the barn is holding up well, but we just lost the first little pieces from the gable edges (where the birds sit and wear the granuals) 2 weeks ago in a cold blow - but it looks like it will shed water for 30 years - -
redid dads house in '89 with t-locs, just because that is what I grew up with - - the t-locs we torn off were the second roof over the cedar shingles - house built 1865 - - the batch we used have not held up - - poor quality materials obviously, and we are gonna have to redo the roof this year - - pisses me off, we put a lot of care into stripping, sheathing and flashing so I wouldn't have to worry about it for 30 years - - such is life - - well use arch heavy weights this time - "there's enough for everyone"
ok shaz i have tried since this morning not to get into this conversation but you want to keep pushin it.in morehead city nc which is a state port they ship a lot of some kind of chemical that if it gets wet explodes.they have four huge(like airplane hangar huge)buildings that are covered in??t locks.all the buildings that are not steel roofed are?? tlocks the chemical buildings are shaped like an upside down u so there are 100s of sqs on one times 4.they are ugly as sin i agree but obviuosly they work in windy conditionsoh yeah i was ther for hurricaanes fran bertha floyd bonnie uh seems like there was one or two more but cant recall the names but anyway my point is they only lost a few shingles in each storm and these sit right on the intercoastal waterway
bud,
thanks for the information.
Of course I have never been to Morehead City,NC-----so it's not surprising that I have never seen the warehouses you are describing. Of course I am up and down the outer banks pretty often---and have been since the '60's------and I don't recall seeing Tlocks there. what I DO see are modern dimensional laminates on newer roofs,wood shingles, and on older houses something that looks like GAF Nor'easters-----strip shingles with no tabs.
also----I never said tlocks weren't wind resistant------what I said was---how come I don't see 'em at the beach if they are so wind resistant? I am thinking UGLY plays into that.
the outer banks are really nice arent they.I have done a bunch of work over on orocacoke(or however you spell it lol)2 1/2 hr ferry one way wild ponies and all that.
probably ugliness is why the t locks dont get used much any more still get some old timers want them on thier houses though.
have a good weekend high of 83 here going to an old bike and car show
Maybe wrong beach. I've seen them in Florida when I worked there.
Now, I'm not defending T-locks because I don't care for the appearance either and would far rather lay a good three tab now, but they were great in their day before the sealdown strips (do you remember back that far?) and they definitely ARE DOUBLE COVERAGE. Take a look at some to refresh your memory there.
But I agree with you about most of the usage and marketing of them nowadays.
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Piffen,
As I said before---I could be wrong about the double coverage on Tlocks----but I really think I am visualizing something different than most of you.
the shingles I am thinking of are about 16" across and interlock in a kind of basket weave effect.I do recall replacing a few for elderly customers( The contractor who installs these here---won't do repair work)------the shingles I am thinking of aren't really available to anybody who doesn't warehouse their own supply------and the contractor protects his market by not selling to us.
so to replace several missing interlocks in the past---for elderly customers-------i recall we removed a full shingle---and used it as a pattern to cut new "shingles" out of 90#. I don't think we have ever done more than 2 or 3 shingles.
not the best solution---but since the contractor who installs these won't service their own older roofs---or sell us the material to make the repairs------what else can we do for older folks in a tight situation?
BTW----there is another contractor here who installs another type of interlocking shingle-----that one looks like a big diamond or octagon----pretty rare here---i have no idea if it is double coverage or not. the octagons seem REALLY big---so if they are double coverage the full shingle must be HUGE.
also---regaurding the sealdown strips. those came on the market before my time----when I got into roofing the big fuss was still over fiberglass versus organic shingles.Much like now the argument is laminate vs. 3 tab. 15-20 years from now I think 3 tabs will be a "special order item"---virtually obsolete in practice.
Too bad about the way it is there for you - or for the customers - locally. We totally agree on the ugliness.
cutting your own replacements from 90# is not uncommon.
I still believe that if you take another close look, you'll see that they are double coverage. It'd be hard to design then to interlock and not get double.
Those diamond patterns are coming back into style as a copy of some old asbestos tiles that werre single coverage and had to have two plys of 30# or a hot mop underlay. Slickest roofs I can remember being on with moss growing....and believe me, I remember. I think that hip still hurts! I haven't actually seen the new ones in person yet.
When I started, you had to answer the question with every order - "Sealdown or regular?" The regular were about $6.20/square and the sealdowns were seven bucks.
I was on a crew that had some of the first fibreglass shingles in Florida and had to write an evaluation of them. They were testing the market, I guess. They were made thicker and sold as a 25 year shingle in a three tab cut but with a sort of woodgrain pattern embossed into them. I remeber one of my comments was that the extra thickness was twice as hard to cut, but that was well before I had ever met a lam architectural shingle.
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I think I saw somthing like that at Hoffricters Lumber, It was an octigon style tab shingle .I think three or four tabs ,$80.oo+ a square . He does not stock them . They looked real good . I wanted some till I heard the price .
I liked the look of Tlocks on large buildings.
>> I wanted some till I heard the price.
The economics of supply and demand, reduced to a single sentence. :o)
i know it's a little late to jump in, but.... i have t-locks on part of my house (read: shack), my neighbors have them, as do a lot of BEACH (actually, bayfront) shacks in this admittably less affluent area of the jersey shore. the installation craftsmanship leaves much to be desired (face nails all over the place, on the 3-tabs too), but they are probably twenty-plus and ain't leakin' yet! and yes, they are hideous to the point of obscenity.
I live in a fairly windy northern state and around here the interlocking(t-lock) shingles were the only thing used until recent years. They wear very well as you can get the same year-gaurantees as you can with the three-tabs. As Piffin stated, the installation techniques are somewhat different, but they are not difficult to install. I have installed both the t-lock and the three tabs, and I have to admit that I liked the 3-tab a little better. They install a little faster and save on the fingers. With the t-lock you have to lift the edge by the little slots in the previous course shingle and slide the ears of the tab in.
The downside of the three-tab is that if you use the standard 15-20 year ones, they do,as previously stated, telegraph any imperfections below them much worse than the t-lock. Definitely best to strip the old shingles first. Also, if you live in an area with a lot of wind, you will have trouble with the occasional tab breaking off.
Now to give the three-tabs their proper dues, they have been using the 40-year, heavy-duty, architectural style ones around here and they are fantastic. They have that kind of a pseudo-shake look(looks great), they seem to be impervious to the wind, and, like all three-tabs, they install a little faster and easier than t-locks.
We will be shingling my Dad's house this summer and he is flat-out adament about using only t-lock's. Old habits die hard!
As far as t-locks indicating poor workmanship, totally untrue! This would be directly related to the workman, not the product!
Edited 3/13/2004 8:44 am ET by Duey
There are techniques for avoiding all that finger wear starting the corners of the T-Locks.
Working from above a shingle, you use a curved claw hammer set over the insert notch to act like a shoehorn as you slip the tab under it. Of course, this means that the other hand is slinging the shigle into place alone and that can result in some excessive wear on the thumb of that hand as the shingle pivots back and forth.
working from below the shingle on steeper roofs, you use a roofing hatchet and flip that corner up a hair with the blade while starting the tab into it.
Keeping the sides parrallel and top edges in line is the harder part. I usually laid out three or four shingles to adjust the lineup and then nailed them in. Nailing one at a time makes it easier to get off run without noticing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Back in the day ........M y buddy Jack and I did the shingles for the roofing co. We would devide labor .He would lock them and I would nail . Jack would use a straigt claw to lift the previous shingle and lock the next course . I would follow slightly behind aligning if need and nail with the hatchet. We did one course at atime allthe way across nomatter how long the roof . We used to cut the bottom of the lock off to make starters . They were all gooped down with the roof cement when we were done so that it wasn't in our hair on our shoes and the roof. We also cemented the rake edge , NO exposed nails . I kinda liked installing tlocks. If you can like installing roofing.
Piffin,
Just checked back in on this post. Appreciate the advice on fingertip-saving techniques. I don't know why that never occured to me. I'm wondering if maybe I just wanted to show off my calloused fingers as some type of a machismo thing. Anyway, I will be using your methods when we do my Dad's house this summer.(and anyone else who insists on t-locks.)
The way we keep the shingles aligned is we lay a row all the way across and then nail them all in place. This works well on the lower pitched roofs, anyway. It's not always possible on the steeper roofs, when you're working off a plank, though. Like you said, they are a little trickier to keep lined up. Would horizontal chalk lines help? Might have to try that.
Edited 3/15/2004 10:31 pm ET by Duey
Sure, chaulk lines can help
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I'll jump in here. I am from the same area as Haz, and everything he told you is true. He has torn off many single coverage interlocking shingles. I have too.
The thing is, all T-locks are interlocking shingles(and T-locks are double coverage), but all interlocking shingles are not T-locks. The companies that he speaks of install primarily the single coverage interlocking shingles.
I can't buy them, so as Haz described, I have to make my own from 90 lb. rolls on repair work.
Owens Corning makes T-locks and they are available by special order from my local suppliers. But they don't match the the single coverage shingles
Hope this clears things up a little.
Thanks
One more tiem in the education
and a better understanding of why they are held in such disdain there
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Piffen,
I have a picture which will show what I have mistakenly been refering to as Tlocks.
In the photo shown in the previous post------the corner of the neighbors house on the right hand side actually shows the shingle type a bit better.
I was thinking of this conversation while roofing yesterday------and the more I thought about it---the more I was sure that these shingles weren't the same thing that you folks are calling Tlocks. then I remembered that a customer had given me a disc last summer which might illustrate the shingle I was thinking of.
( funny---I had remembered that the NEIGHBORS house had interlocking shingles---but I forgot that HIS house had them as well,and the left hand neighbor as well. These 3 houses are easily the nicest houses I can recall seeing these shingles on.
now---while on one of the houses I was working on yesterday( 3 tab blow-off repairs BTW)----I looked around the neighborhood and spotted one of these interlocking shingle roofs with a shingle blown off. I took a couple pictures---but because the camera was a polaroid---and because I couldn't get close enough in that neighborhood-----those particular pictures wouldn't show up well here( assuming I could even figure out how to scan them in here).
however---if you could see the roof I was looking at yesterday----you would see that when these shingles blow off---they are not double coverage. they are about 16inches wide, and I think about maybe 20 inches high. they interlock and lap about 4 inches around the perimeter. When they blow off you can see that an area about 8 inches wide and 12 inches high in the center of the shingle is single coverage. I am guessing at the 8 inch dimension---but the 12 inch dimension is pretty accurate because the previous roofs' tabs were exposed----2 courses at 5 inches and about 2 inches of a 3rd course.
so---in short folks---I will freely admidt my statement regaurding tlocks being single coverage was in error-------but I think the picture posted will clear up the reasoning----lol.
good Luck All.
BTW---yesterday was sunny,warm,not a cloud in the sky---beautifull all around.
today,however the wife and kids have a snow day off from school!
And I didn't know there was a similar shingle that interlocked....
Live, love and learn.
wE get that snow tonite and tomorrow. I mounted the plow but hope I don't have to use it.
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Your picture certainly cleared up the confusion in my mind about the type of shingle you were talking about. I've never seen anything quite like it. BTW, with a roof that steep, could you use siding instead of shingles??
FWIW, they are fairly common on 60+ year old houses in my area (NW Ohio.) As many have noted they are good at resisting wind.
The ones that used to be used around here seem last much longer than any other asphalt/fiberglass shingle I've ever seen - the old ones were much thicker then the then used 3 tab (lam's weren't around when they were common.)
I often see them on top of the original cedar shingles.
I don't see them stocked any more around here, apparently special order only. I haven't seen enough newer installations to draw any conclusions about actual life expectency of the ones available now, but on the few more reecent installations I have seen they still seem to be a bit thicker then 3 tabs and I don't think it likely that they will have the surface cracking on the laminated sections of lam shingles which are common.
For the older ones- when they start to go (seems like they last 30 -40 years) they go fast.
_______________________
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T-locks are still fairly common here. I saw a pallet of them at the yard the other day. Yes, as everyone else said, they are good at resisting wind.
That said, I think they are on there way out since lams do just as well in the wind.
Yes, they are double coverage.
Something is what it does.
To all who responded..thanks I now know what t-locks are and that I don't need or want them on my little ranch.. 3 tabs are the order of the day!!!
Ward
p.s. wow that was some great conversations!!!!