Greetings,
I was watching This Old House last night and have a question about table saw safety. The show is the 4th or 5th dealing with a brownstone in NYC. A worker in the GC’s shop was replicating a molding using a tablesaw with a molding head and blade, and a bench-mounted router. The worker wasn’t using push sticks and his hands looked very close to the business end of the saw. Am I too safety conscious?
Steve
A rear addition provides a small-scale example of how to frame efficiently.
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Replies
I imagine somewhere in all of those credit rolls there is a disclaimer saying these are trained professionals and don't try this at home.
People do get sloppy around power tools and they do lose fingers. If it doesn't look safe it probably isn't.
http://www.sawstop.com/
I couldn't tell, was that a Sawstop saw?Steve
I don't think so. I just posted that because it's interesting.
Hey, come to think of it,I'm curious if you could even use a moulding head on a Sawstop saw? I'm pretty sure the device wouldn't work as intended.
Anyway, I have run Moulding heads in radial arms and tablesaws for about 30 yrs now, and if you ain't at least a little scared , your crazy. Just the sound of it ramping up to speed is so unlike a normal blade, you had better pay attn. There is a such a thing as too much safety, it's when you are so scared you can't focus and control the work, and may have a weak link in your pushing style, this will cause chatter and possibly kick back. Normally I listen to the little voices, if it says "man this is an accident looking for a place to happen" I rethink it.
And, yes pushsticks are all over my shop, the jointer, the bandsaw, the TS and at the router table. If not a dedicated homemade one, at least a 'follower' board for things like thin moulding on the Router table. Same with a bandsaw ( the closest I ever came to losing a digit, was on my bandsaw) I'll use a hunk of scrap for that last few inches of feeding.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
the closest I ever came to losing a digit, was on my bandsaw) I'll use a hunk of scrap for that last few inches of feeding.
Same, same
You ever see Sam Maloof saw on his? Don't do that at home..LOL. Blade exits suddenly or work twists, and you are in the motion..bye, bye digit. Almost took off my L index at the hand knuckle.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
No, never watched that video.
First attempt at resawing, I almost split my thumb into a couple of 3/8" slabs. Good thing I had the wrong blade for resawing on it. The one I use now would have gotten to the first knuckle before I of could pulled back.
Never used a molding head on my TS. A blind dado cut in a cabinet panel knocked me on my butt with the kick back once, the strawberry and bruse stay around a long time to remind me to pay attention all the time. No matter how reppetive or often I've made the same cut.
A molding head on a TS is some kinda scarey, and can launch to near sub orbital speeds <G>
Edited 2/20/2009 2:53 pm ET by DaveRicheson
Off the subject but....What saw and blade do you use for resawing?I recently acquired an old 20" delta that I want to outfit for resawing but don't know what blade to look for.DC
Ya can't go wrong with the Timber wolf Woodslicer , from Highland woodworking in Atl.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
wait until you up the chances with a scoring blade to boot!
My 20" Delta (1947-ish) runs 99% of the time on just two bands:3/8X4PC "Timberwolf"
1/2X3PC "Timberwolf"I used to buy the bands locally, but you can get 'em online from Suffolk Machinery.Pete
I'm using the Timberwolf that Sphere mentioned. I think it is about 5 tpi by 3/4 or 1".
I've watched Sam Maloof cut curves on the bandsaw and he is violating every rule in the book.
But the curves he wants in his pieces would be very difficult to do otherwise.
Discussing safety can be difficult on a forum. Some people are like the safety police. If you say anything that even resembles a breech of safety rules they are all over you.
It's the same way with some people and political correctness. It's their job to defend every group of people down to their toenails. Sheeesh. Give me a break.
PAW,I couldn't agree with you more!DC
On the push stick thing, I began making custom "push sticks" about thirty-five years ago. The thought of using a little stick to push something past a two billion mile and hour, carnivorous blade just seemed insane.Instead, I ALWAYS use push sticks that allow me to keep about nine inches or more of the push stick on the work piece during the entire cut. This works as a hold down and solves a lot of problems with flexible pieces that would normally vibrate and create wood grenades.In choosing a shape. I just play on the band saw, or with my saber saw, until I find a shape comfortable to my hand. The general shape starts with a point at the point of the cut and tapers up so, at the back, where my hand rests, it will be about nine inches off the table. That part is rounded to make it comfortable in my hand. I cut a notch out of the bottom from the front to back just a bit shallower than the wood I cutting, leaving the last 3/4" or so to push the wood through.It isn't uncommon to find these push sticks stacked about my shop. Some may only be an eight of an inch thick and made from Masonite, and the dept of the bottom notch changes to accommodate the thickness of wood I'm cutting (e.g., 1/8" to 3/4"). Using these makes cutting far more comfortable, physically and mentally. I have cut hundreds of 1/8" x 1/8" pieces, or similar insane sizes, that would have been propelled back, but because the whole piece is covered by the push stick and the back is pushing, they just push on through.I try to be careful around my saws. This is inspired by my back trouble - I have a foot wide yellow streak running up it. But I still have all my fingers after all these years. That's not to say I haven't scared the hell out of myself a few times.On free handing, I do it often with my little Bosch table saw, but wouldn't dream of it with my cabinet saw. Even then, if it's a narrow board, I flip it and start from the other end a little over half way through. Much of the plywood I've had to scribe to something allowed me to run the entire cut in one pass. Regardless,I try to keep at least eighteen inches between me and the blade.Edited 2/21/2009 2:52 am ET by dejure
Edited 2/26/2009 3:15 pm ET by dejure
Even then with push sticks, one may not be safe!
I hadn't seen my neighbor, who is a fellow woodworker, for about a month or so.
Finally saw him and found out that while he was running a piece of wood through his table saw, the push stick he was using, pushed down on the back of the insert plate, which rotated the front of the plate up, and caught a saw tooth blade. The insert shot back and him him in his chin. He said he had a cut on his chin and he had some loose teeth, but his wife had him go the the dentist.
Found out that he had broken his jaw. And since this happened New Years Eve, with most oral surgeons out, he had to wait 5 days to get in to get his jaw repaired.
End results, he ends up having his jaw wired shut for a month and is still wearing a brace on his upper and lower teeth.
Ironic thing is, is that he had just ordered a magnetic feather board a day before this event.
I think I can say, and say with pride that we have some legislatures that bring higher prices than any in the world. - Mark Twain
I usually say that safety is mostly just a matter of proficiency, confidence, and focus.
I don't use a guard on my table saw, a practice seen as unsafe by most. For me, it's just part of the job and a characteristic of the saw I use. As long as I am in control of the machine, the material, and everything in my proximity there really shouldn't be any problems. Even with the guard off, I still know where the blade is and therefore can still judge a safe distance from my hand. Even still, I am sure to always have a push stick or two in reaching distance just in case I change my mind during the cut.
But, it takes years of experience to develop a keen sense for using such a machine safely.
Anyone new to a table saw should do as they say:
"be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your power tools properly will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury"
Exactly how close IS too close?
For me, about the thickness of my thumb plus the length of my thumbnail at the time plus about 1/4". For others...3" maybe?
DC
Considering all your posts about mandated training in the other thread, it seems pretty hypocritical to be advocating methods which violate OSHA safety standards.Although I do much the same.John
never said I was perfect
Really, I think kickback is the big issue with a table saw. I once knew a guy who was cutting a 2x2' square of plywood on a big powermatic table saw. He was a real safety nut, and even though an elephant could have fit its foot between the fence and the blade, he was using a push stick. You can guess what happened. He didn't have control of the piece, it wobbled a bit and kicked back. I got there just after it happened. He was sitting on the floor groaning incoherently. Got him in the testicles. He made a full recovery, though I think he may have avoided the table saw after that. The point is that sometimes you are better off with your hand on a stick of wood if it means you have better control of the situation.
Your right about push sticks causing problems too.
My dad had me ripping plywood on the jobs from a very young age, so
the old school (safety free) way was how I was raised.
At some point (I think it was hanging over at Knots too much) I decided it was time to shape up. So I whipped up a push stick and proceeded to launch timber across the shop!
Sometimes keeping your hand on the wood is a smart move.
I'd be a little wary of taking a lot of the advice from Knots too seriously.There are an awful lot of tool polishers and "theoretical" woodworkers over there whose "knowledge" is based on articles and tool reviews rather than hands-on practical experience. Their voices tend to swamp the few who really do have something to offer. Far better to rely on your own experience, common sense and internal alarm when deciding what are safe practices.
Your right of course, but I've been in the trades
all my life so I can usually tell the **** from shinola. LOL! What I found interesting over there was the European Table saw
methods. Much different then ours, with a large emphasis on safety. Basically I've gone with a riving knife and an intent to rig up a top guard. Other then that jobsight saws just don't lend themselves all the gear.
>>>There are an awful lot of tool polishers and "theoretical" woodworkers over there whose "knowledge" is based on articles and tool reviews rather than hands-on practical experience.Hahaha.... I got a chuckle out of that, though I think there's a little bit of 'tool polisher' in all of us, depending on our skill and knowledge set.Scott.
"The point is that sometimes you are better off with your hand on a stick of wood if it means you have better control of the situation."I agree...As I said I always keep a push stick OR TWO at hand. Read the situation first then adapt as needed."Really, I think kickback is the big issue with a table saw"Kick back IS an issue, and although not always unavoidable, it can at least be more controllable if some forethought is given.As far as your friend is concerned...sounds like he needs to better understand his wood. A piece of wood with complex grain requires more discretion than a common grained piece. Likely, he misunderstood or was unaware of the characteristic of his wood and in turn it bound on him. I understand that it can happen, the key is knowing that it will.At this point, I cannot think of any reason to be afraid of ("avoid") a table saw.ThanksDCEDIT:
I guess I misinterpreted your quote...."The point is that sometimes you are better off with your hand on a stick of wood if it means you have better control of the situation."I though you were referring to keeping your hand on the pushstick. In reguards though, I think a machine user of any sort has the responsibility to read the situation first then adapt as needed. The machine is stupid, the wood is stupid, you are the only one with any reasoning ability.
Edited 2/20/2009 7:17 pm ET by Dreamcatcher
There's a couple of things that I consider before deciding how close to work on a table saw; how solidly mounted the saw is, how smooth the blade is spinning and what sort of material I'm working with.
A really solid saw with good bearings cutting clear pine, no problem working close to the blade.
A sloppy saw sitting on an old pair of horses cutting knotty Doug fir, I be pushin' with a stick, standing to one side.
I met a home owner once who had a fresh bandage on a splinted thumb. Said that, in hind sight, the table saw had been vibrating because it wasn't solidly mounted and something was a little out of balance. That's pretty common, particularly with cheaper saws.
So while feeding a piece through by hand, the out-of-whack condition and the vibration suddenly got together and spit the work piece back, tearing up the end of the thumb badly.
Edited 2/21/2009 11:23 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
The other day while working at church on our Mens Workday, I walked by two old dudes cutting triangled pieces of plywood on the table saw, free hand, no fences, push sticks nothing ...just plow through fearlessly. I told the Pastor, Thats why we won WWII.Old dudes, total BadA***s"Gentle to the touch, exquisite to contemplate, tractable in creative hands, stronger by weight than iron, wood is, as William Penn had said,"a substance with a soul.'"Eric Sloane
I walked by two old dudes cutting triangled pieces of plywood on the table saw, free hand, no fences, push sticks nothing ...just plow through fearlessly.
I used to free hand 3/4 clear pine jamb extensions which I'd scribed to fit, then use a block plane to take off the last 1/16 or so. It wasn't very smart, working the last few inches with both thumbs so close to the blade but I got away with it, some how.
Partly an understanding of and respect for machinery, partly intuition.
Now I'd make those cuts with one of the much better, more powerful jig saws which are on the market. Didn't have that option then...or a nice band saw either.
I wonder how much safer it would be, doing those scribed cuts with a band saw. I've never owned one or had access to one on a job. Seems like the pucker factor would be reduced but not much else. Of course a band saw is less likely to spit the work piece back but the thumbs/fingers are still vulnerable, working that close to the blade.
Edited 2/21/2009 4:46 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Are you too safety conscious? You like all the things god gave you, right? You can never be too safe. We've all done things where we got away without injury and thought "what the heck was I thinking?"
With table saws, a push stick is fine, I think this is much better. Also having a riving knife to prevent kickback is important. Rockler has the gripper on sale now for $39 vs. regular price of $55. Well worth the money in my opinion.
http://www.microjig.com/GRR-Ripper.htm
What might be safe for one could be unsafe for another.
If you think it looked unsafe then you shouldn't do it.
That doesn't mean someone else shouldn't do it though.
I should make clear, when I said I still do free hand on my portable, but not on my cabinet saw, that I never get closer than around sixteen or more inches from the saw. For example, I'll do this when cutting a long board and need to follow an angled line (flipping it 2/3 through), or when cutting, say, a triangle on a large piece of ply. The point is, though the Bosch is a good saw, I can stop the blade and it doesn't have the power to out power me, as long as I have a good grip (I'm a white knuckler for these projects). Not so with the cabinet saw. It'll turn a 4'x8' piece of paneling into a kite.
I bought a Merlin splitter for my saw, because factory ones are a joke, in so far as convenience is concerned, and when compared to riving knives. It was an excellent investment. I actually put it back on at every opportunity, since it doesn't take three days to do it. I also bought an Excalibur over arm guard. It's far from perfection, but gets used a lot on larger pieces. However, until someone in the guard business comes to realize guards don't have to make it impossible to do repeat cuts an 1/8" wide (e.g., right side removable for a left tilt and used in conjunction with a push block which rides on the fence, with the upper push offset), they're still going to be limited.
You know, that microjig might just be what I have been looking for. Thanks.
Always always use a push stick. All these posts are true & fact. To me though, what is most effective in preventing accidents is knowledge & concentration. Knowing the physics of what's happening and being ultra sensitive to it and by either anticipation, forward prevention, or reactionary being able to adjust accordingly. After a while it becomes second nature.
Check that all systems are go like fence allignment, type of material and what it acts like, machine anchoring, your stance and where the potential energy is in your body.
That, and don't do anything stupid.
Push sticks always.