I had a little fun over the weekend. We set up a small booth at the Pontiac Silverdome. This is my first marketing attempt directly to retail buyers in about 10 or 15 years. I really didn’t have any idea how to go about it, so I treated this as my retail marketing birthday.
Frank and I didn’t know we were going to be in this show till the last week or so and we crammed a lot of decisions into a very small time frame. Our “display” was going to be a semi-simple/elaborate rough framed house with some stepped ceilings and roof. When we got there, we figured out that we weren’t going to be in the main areana and we had to cut the sidewalls down so low that a ceiling was impossible.
We punted.
Here’s a pic of our booth. After setting it up in about an hour, we walked around the building and came to the conclusion that we came in second place…second from last….there was one booth that was worse. We just laughed and plodded on…
Luckily, we later noticed another worse booth….a basement guy standing behind a barricade with a very large banner saying “Affordable Basements”. He pathetically was tied for 1st. So…we came in third.
We probably have a million dollars worth of stuff to bid…so it didn’t turn out that bad. I’m sure we’ll land at least one quality rough frame package, which was our goal.
blue
Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I’m a hackmeister…they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Replies
hey is this a test
the pics are dated 2002
or am I in the future looking back
if so , let me get to the bookie and place some bets on the super bowl winners of 2003 and 2004
the world series and a few b-ball games
hey babe , we finally hit the big time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know Isa....that goofy camera of mine keeps resetting itself back to it's date of origin or something. It's also forgetting to delete pictures that I've already uploaded to my harddrive.
It's time for a real camera....but I have no time and no money!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Anyways, on with the show....
So I'm at the show thinking that people will actually know that I'm willing to frame them a house or something. It quickly becomes obvious that our message isn't on target as much as a competitor....some of you might know this outfit...it's a firm called U-Build-It! I met the guy that is/was Kacy's consultant (Kacy has a thread in the Photo section).
Their display lloudly said: Your house or addition, our expertise, your equity...or something like that. They had people standing there talking when we didn't....we were jealous...
Anyways, when things slowed down I had a little chat with Pete Moceri who was manning the booth. He was a very nice gentleman indeed and we exchanged info. I decided that I like U-Build_it's philosophy and Pete and I agreed to meet later this week to start the approval process for us to be a qualified vendor for them. In fact, since our consulting services are secondary to our business, I found myself sending them possible business from people that I was talking too at the show.
Networking....a powerful tool in the construction business...as well as any business!
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
What a small world! That is great and I hope that all works well for ya!
Pete's a great guy.
Best,
Christi
Thanks Christi. I connected immediately with Pete and I was able to understand and relate to his business even though I haven't read anything more about Ubuildit than what was posted in kacy's photo thread. The reason I understand it so well is because I've been thinking that same thing for about 15 years now!
I'd rather do rough carpentry for informed homeowners. I like the idea that they will have Pete on their side to help them to moderate any misunderstandings that could possibly occur when I frame something for them. I'm not perfect, and neither are they. I see Pete's role as an expert advisor and mediator and I know I'll rarely have to defend myself if the other guy truly knows his business. In some of my past experiences with homeowner projects, I was victimized by the owners' relatives who worked in the auto industry that had built a doghouse once. Instead of believing me, they believed their relatives who couldn't frame their way into kindygarten.
UBuildit eliminates my main source of frustration with homeowners...ignorance coupled with power.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Exactly!
Okay....a little more tidbits about the show.....
We set up camp and right next to us is a Romanian guy that does decorative concrete. This good natured fellow loves doing concrete but hate selling. So, to avoid his pain, he simply sets a very competitve price and proudly bellows that number out to just about every customer that stops and looks at one of his props. We spent the entire four days laughing at his "$8 per square foot" price and pretty soon every thing is 8 bucks! You know the routine.....
Anyways, the amazing thing is that Mr Decorative stone is a prime vendor for anyone that would love to add a profitable product to their retail offerings. After discussing his methods, capacitys, crew size, equipment size and work ethic, I determined that he probably installed about 150,000sf of concrete last season. That was based on him buying 1500 yards from one supplier and 500 from another. I heard those numbers discussed when he was talking about material costs with one of his competitors. The competitor ran five crews, not the one that Mr Decorative concrete-man does.
The competitor sells on value. He sells the same product for $12 per square foot. He also mentioned that he went on 21 sales calls last week and collected 18 deposits and is booked into late april already. Needless to say, these numbers fascinated me. I'm currently sceduling some estimates with various concrete installers to get Frank's patio yanked out and replaced with some decorative stamped concrete! I'll know later this week if $12 is a viable sales number or just bluster.
Hmmmmm a $4 per square foot spread on 160,000 sf of concrete?
I might not be doing much carpentry this season......
blue
ps Oh yeah, Mr Decorative Concrete-Man agreed to install as many concrete jobs that we run into....he said just ring his phone, he can usually give firm prices over the phone while we're still at the homeowners house. His main condition is being able to get his equipment back in the yard. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
More (and better) stuff to come tomorrow....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
In another life, I used to have to be the company rep at 4-5 trade shows a year (selling to emegency services providers). Although I liked the sales part of the job when I was dealing with real-life qualified customers, I hated manning the booth and dealing with the public who relly cared less about our products, but wanted whatever stupid giveaway goodie-bag stuffer the boss dreamed up that week.
I really enjoyed the slow times when I got to walk the floor and see what the other vendors were up to. Most of them were great folks and we often ended up with great synergies about joint marketing, cross referring, etc.
It sounds like you had a similar experience in seeing paths you hadn't imagined before. It bodes well for the future of your new venture.
=====Zippy=====
I work in Automation Technology and we do a show or two every year. I hear ya about the goodie bag folks.
We set out a coffee cup filled with little screw drivers. We have to keep it full because if the last screw driver is taken, the next guy takes the cup!
You're right Zippy, networking does bode well for us, as well as our newfound contractor buddies!
Mr Decorative concrete man doesn't know it yet, but I've got my eye on his May scedule! I've already started my search for a sales agent and I have a few guys/gals in mind that might love a 16 hour week that could pay them 4k or more!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Hey Blue,
That's cool that you met up with Pete! He is a very nice guy, as is his partner George too.
Sounds like you impressed him as well. That's great that you are looking into becoming one of their approved vendors. I wish you could've been our framer. We've been having some issues with ours and UBuildit is not too happy with them right now at all since they were one of their approved vendors.
No work has been done on our place for almost two weeks, hence why I haven't posted an update in a while.
Anyway, good luck with your meeting and I'm glad you got some good leads at the show!
-Kacy
Thanks Kacy.
Tell me more about the delay on your addition. What is left to do? Is something holding the framer up?
I don't know why framers delay doing their last few hours work. I also don't know why they won't finish every last detail before they leave. It's not uncommon for them to know there are six items, yet they still go home for the day...EARLY!
Framers are weird sometimes.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Update on Mr Gandalf. I saw him today...he reminds me of Lt. Columbo. He said that he's going to have a buddy start flying him around the area looking for buildable tracts of land, especially around lakes. He said he used to fly himself, but his bypass has grounded him.
I love this guy!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Well, our framers didn't show up last Monday (the 7th) so we called the owner and the lead carpenter to see what was up. We talked to the lead guy and he said they had to work on another job that day but that they'd be back Tuesday (the 8th). Well we talked to the same guy again Tuesday and found out that they were not coming back all week.
In the meantime, we kept trying to get in touch with the owner because we wanted to know what was going on. He told us before they even started that once he got his guys started on our job, then they would stay until they finished.
Anyway, we called the owner several times Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday of last week and got no response. We finally talked to the lead guy again and he said that the owner's wife's grandmother passed away that previous weekend and that the owner was out of town working things out with his family.
Now I understand that he had family stuff to deal with and I agree that family comes first...but don't you think it would have been nice for him to call us and let us know the situation. All of the stress we have been going through the past two weeks would've been avoided had he just called us 1 time to let us know he was going to be gone.
What's even more ironic (and what has been causing us the most stress) is that the Friday before the owner went MIA, we paid him a big check (i.e. more money than work has even been done, like 9K more) I know that's a big no no but we really trusted him and he said he needed it and that we would be doing him a favor if we could pay him it a little in advance. He also said he would in turn give us a deal on the change orders we both agreed on. (we got all this in writing by the way). We did still hold back some of the money.
Well, since we gave him that check, we haven't heard a single word from him. And even though he hasn't "had time" to call us, he certainly "had time" to cash our check.
Nice, eh?
We figured after a week of no work and plenty of time to work out family stuff that we would hear from him this past Monday (the 14th). Well, we still haven't heard a thing from him and it's Wednesday night. The only thing we have heard is from the lead carpenter who said they would definitely be back on "Wednesday...uh...or Thursday...uh....or Friday at the absolute latest."
So that's almost two full weeks of absolutely nothing being done on our house. And since we don't know if/when their going to come back, we can't even give our other subs an estimate as to when we'll be ready for them. Heck we don't even know if they're coming back at all.
Is this normal. Are we being unrealistic thinking he should've called us by now, at least once? We've left him probably 10 messages on his various phone numbers. (cell, office, etc.)
It all just seems really fishy to me. I'm pissed and if he didn't have 9K of my money then I would've already been trying to find someone else.
What sucks even more is that I thought he was a really good guy and I trusted him. And even if they do show up tomorrow, he still put us through hell since he didn't even have the courtesy to call.
What did he think we would think? We give him a big check and all of a sudden he goes MIA?
So that's my sob story. I still have hope they'll come back but I wont be totally at ease until I see it with my own eyes.
(by the way, these guys were approved vendors with UBuildit. And UBuildit has been trying to get in touch with him too and gotten no response.)
_______
Oh yeah, I forgot to add. They got the whole addition done (minus both sets of stairs) but they haven't done any of the framing in the existing house. They still have to do that plus install all the new windows in the existing house plus all the exterior doors in the entire house. Plus we also gave them a big deposit to do the roof as well. So there's probably 15K worth of work to be done and they have 9K of it already in their pockets.
Edited 3/16/2005 7:50 pm ET by kcmarie122
Ouch, ouch, ouch Kacy!
Sorry to hear about your dilemma.
I shoulda warned you...a lot of framers are chemical dependent. There are a lot of "normal" guys that like to sniff white stuff up their noses. The others are drunks...but they are easy to spot.
IF Ubuildit doesn't promptly drop them from their vendor list, I don't think I'll be bothering to apply for certification. I'm not interested in being lumped in with these types of contractors.
One more thing...carpenters are notorious for using their grammas and grampas dying. I've heard that one many, many times. One time, the drunk...err...carpenter told me his gramma died. I said sorry and asked what funeral home she was laid out in. The guy told me Calcaterra's Funeral home. Big mistake....my father in law was Lou Calcaterra. I called Lou up and asked him if there was anyone by that name...nope.
Next day, fired.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Kacy,
Be sure Pete knows. If these guys aren't reliable, they are toast.
Blue Eyed is right though.....last time you saw them did they all come out of a van together.....with funny smellin' smoke seeping from the window cracks? (just kidding)
-christi
Edited 3/17/2005 1:45 am ET by UBuildIt
Christi-
I know the "smoke coming from the van comment" was said in jest, but let's get real here- you're a VP at UBuildIt, and this is the type of contractor that your firm's franchisees are putting on their "approved vendor" lists?
Seems to me that Kacy probably could have found a bunch of crack-head framers just fine on her own. Part of hiring UBuildIt and paying the fees associated with your services was probably the "level of comfort" that she got that UBuildIt would help to shield her from the garbage contractors that permeate our industry. It sound like y'all haven't quite figured out how to do that yet.
That's one of the reasons I've never been able to stomach paying $25k for UBuildit to tell me how to run a consulting company- I don't see the real value in what you're providing yet. Of course, the line about "no construction experience required" on your franchise opportunities webpage, kinda turned me off too- makes it seem like any monkey with $25k and some liquid capital is welcome to join the club.
Not trying to be harsh, but reality sometimes is.
Bob
Bob,
Point taken.
Our franchises owners don't have to have construction experience. They may be well funded and have a background in running successful companies.
Our consultants do have to have 10 years of verifiable experience in the kind of work that is being done. Production background wouldn't qualify, it has to be full custom....in the market that the office is working in. So, if you are in Florida, experience in Maine doesn't help.
Most of our offices have a lic. gc on board and that's good.
If Pete recommended a framing crew that is falling down on the job or is not being responsive to Kacy, he needs to know about it so he can put some heat on the guy. Our subs know that they don't get to work for us if they aren't cutting it.
Regards,
Christi ~Peace
Thanks Christi, They are definitely on it already. They've been trying to contact him too but haven't heard anything. I think that's in breach of some contract the owner signed with them. Now we're just waiting to see if they show up tomorrow like we were told.
Either way though, I can't imagine George or Pete recommending them to anyone else after all of this. I think my framer's burned that bridge already even if they do show up and finish the job eventually.
And by the way, we did finally hear from the owner this morning. He left us a message. He sounded a little irritated that we were so insistent on talking with him instead of being satisfied with talking to his lead carpenter. Well considering his lead carpenter has a cell phone that doesn't work, i.e. he calls us (like twice in 2 weeks), we can't call him, I don't see why he's surprised that we're ticked off. Also the fact that our house has been sitting totally stagnant for two weeks. Yup, I think we have a right to be pissed. A simple phone call 2 weeks ago telling us that for the next two weeks, we need to talk to the lead carpenter instead of him would have been sufficient. Then we could have bitched to him about why the other job was being finished before ours! Granted we still would have been annoyed that no work was getting done but at least we wouldn't have had the stress that we were getting totally screwed!
At even that is still in question...We'll see if they show up tomorrow.
Hey, Kacy,
UBuildIt consultants are not supposed to recommend that clients 'pay ahead' the trades. Of course, that means the loss of some serious performance leverage.
Did George, your consultant, tell you to do that? George has a lifetime of construction experience dealing with trades and should know better.
Please get back to me....
Christi~Peace
Actually George did caution me about it. He was immediately hesitant when I told him that the owner asked if we could pay some more money a little ahead of our agreed schedule.
But George has also been really good the whole time thus far about letting us make the final decisions. And he told us that we needed to evaluate our own comfort level with this company and if we felt comfortable, then that was our decision. He did suggest that if we decided to still give the company some money that we at least not give him as much as they originally asked for.
Well we took his advice and suggested a smaller amount to the owner but he came back with an "in between" figure that we said agreed to. This company really had been good to us up till that point and we felt like we could repay them the favor. We really had no reason to doubt them.
I guess the thing we didn't think about was that once you pay them for more than what they've done, you really do lose a lot of leverage in getting them out there. Not because their trying to screw you but because their "other job" probably isn't paying them up front (they obviously being smarter than us) so the framers want to get that job done pronto so they get more money.
The other thing that made the money even more sticky was that we also hired this same company to do our roof. Well they asked for 3K up front as a deposit to order the materials. We didn't even ask George about that one because we figured it was a no brainer. But that 3K along with the extra we gave him on the framing job adds up to a bit more than we're comfortable with now that they've been missing for two weeks.
It's sad that we are being taken advantage of because we truly are trusting people who like to return favors. We just assumed that because they were treating us so well that just because we did them a favor by giving them some advance money that they would stop treating us the same. We're still hoping they show up tomorrow but you are right in that we lost some serious performance leverage and that was a big mistake on our part.
Let's just say we learned a major lesson. It just sucks that we are going to have to be hard-as--es to all the rest of our subs down the road. No more favors....no matter how nice they are to us up front. I hate living life with the attitude that "you do what you have to do to not get screwed."
I guess the good subs wont mind waiting to get paid and then when they are completely done we can "reward" them at that time for their great work.
Oh, Kacy!
I'm sorry that you're in this spot, but I have to say I'm glad that you got good advice from George.
In our business, most of the problems we have are related to this very thing: us advising one thing and the client choosing to not take our advice.
Still, I'd heat Pete up to get him on the sub.
Thanks,
Christi~Peace
Hey Christi,
I really don't want you to think that we are not happy with Pete and George's services. We are very happy with all they've done so far and we have no worries about it down the road either. This is an unfortunate situation that we are in but we really only have ourselves to blame for being too trusting despite George's warnings.
I just wanted to let you know that Pete and George were both aware of the situation we are in. We have been in contact with them the whole time and they have been doing everything they can to help us get this figured out. I hold them in no way responsible for our framer's poor professionalism. There's no way UBuildit could have known that this type of thing would happen.
This framer had a good reputation. I just think something's going on within their company that needs to get worked out, i.e. legal issues, workers getting let go. It doesn't seem like this is something they do a lot. I just think we got unlucky in our timing with them.
And really, it's not like the framer's already fled the country or anything. In fact the framer has contacted us and said they are coming out tomorrow to start working again. So really, all we're looking at, at the moment, is an unfortunate 2 week delay of our construction and a lack of communication between ourselves and the framer. It just got a little frustrating and I needed to vent.
I realize now that I really should keep these types of frustrations to myself, because I see how my venting can reflect negatively on UBuildit and I really did not intend to do that and do not ever want to do that. My husband and I have been extremely pleased with the level of service we have received so far from them.
Thanks for checking up on us though, but Pete and George have been awesome so far and we truly have absolutely no complaints about them. I see now how my comments about the framer maybe led some people to think I was blaming UBuildit. The only one to blame here is the framer and ourselves who went against George's advice. UBuildit has done everything they can to help us work through this situation and I know that nothing will stop up from getting our house done.
And from what I've heard from other owner-builders who have done it on their own, this type of situation is not all that unusual. No home construction is without it's glitches at one time or another. But at least we have UBuildit on our side for additional support in getting this straightened out with the sub.
Thanks again and don't worry about us! We're in good hands!
-Kacy
You know what, Kacy....don't stop posting. I'm confident in UBuildIt and confident in Pete and George. If we mess up, we should have dues to pay. It it happens in public like this, then so be it.<!----><!---->
These guys all know the dangers of the construction business. Some may not understand or like assisted owner/building, but that's okay. <!---->
It is very important that you follow George's advice though. When things go South, it's usually because an client ignores our advice and that's dangerous: it can put you off schedule, affect the quality of your home or put you over budget.<!---->
You paid us, so let UBuildIt really advise you.<!---->
There's a famous story around UBuildIt about a client that got to thinking he knew everything he needed to know. You know the old adage – “you can't know what you don't know?†So, this guy decided to convert the garage into a cathedral ceiling without talking to the consultant....he just gave orders to the subs. Well, of course, neither the plans nor the budget included that, so all hell broke loose. So, these cathedral trusses show up on the site, and there’s no steel windframe or structural stuff to support turning a garage into a 2 story wall with a garage door in it. The garage door guy nearly keels over because how can he hang the door? The framer freaks because now there’s no stability in the structure or the walls and they are flopping around like a trout out of water. The client freaks because he’s over budget with all the shoring up that has to be done.<!---->
And the moral of the story is, it’s big trouble for squirrel and moose if you get off track of the system. If you go over budget because of unexpected and poorly thought-out change orders…where would the money come from if you blow through your contingency? You would find yourself in the unfortunate position of owing money to subs/vendors and not having any draw left. The bank, if they got wind of it, would put your loan in stasis (risk management) and you could end up with a lien on the house.<!---->
Now, I hate to cry wolf and scare you to death, but that’s worse case scenario.<!---->
It can be small stuff, too…..maybe your consultant has structural fill planned for the porch that wraps around the front and the concrete guy says “hell, I’d just use dirt!â€. Well gosh, that is one way to do it, but is it the best way? Do you want the cement to crack because the dirt shifted or do you want some stability? Do you realize that dirt sitting over there is allocated for elsewhere and you gotta buy more dirt?<!---->
That is all stuff you need to know, so that you can make informed decisions. That’s what UBuildIt is all about – informed decisions.<!---->
So, once again, use George…..and call me if you have any trouble. Your house is going to be beautiful and you'll be proud of it!
Thanks,
Christi~Peace
Hey, Kacy,
We probably oughtta pick up these last two posts and put them over in the other thread. This thread title is about a home and garden show and I think we moved the party over here, which might leave a bunch of people wondering what happened.
After all, we got some good communication goin' now!
What do you think?
Christi~Peace
kc
did your framer show today? I'm guessing....not. See you Monday
And I'm just guessing here but I don't think your money has run out yet. Monday will be about right. Bad news on your roofing deposit. Is there a company that you could check to see if he ordered material?
Edited 3/18/2005 10:48 pm ET by SCRAPR
"but he came back with an "in between" figure that we said agreed to. This company really had been good to us up till that point and we felt like we could repay them the favor"
That's really sad... a contractor is doing a decent job on your project and you consider that a FAVOR??
Sounds like the home and garden show opened some doors for you, blue. I'm happy to see it! I truly believe that the universe favors the bold, and when you step up and declare your intent to build a future using your own creativity, persistence, and vision for the future, just as you're doing, forces in the universe shift and align to move you down your path...doors open...people appear...things happen that blow your mind...like meeting the old fellow again. You're creating your own reality, beginning with merely thinking about it. There is great power in that.Then when you talk about it, declaring openly to the universe your intent, there is huge power in that, too. A little voice in your head brings the home and garden show to your attention...something inside, or maybe someone you trust, says give it a shot..Now you're taking action, and the universe responds even more. Huge wheels that are already turning speed up a little. Opportunities present themselves...again?Your willingness to step up and seize them, acting in pursuit of your dream, will cause those wheels to turn even faster. More doors will open...more "coincidences" will occur. I know this isn't just starting to happen, but has been going on all along. That wheels been turning for some time, and is moving along at a pretty good clip, seems to me. One thing that I sense is that you are truly having fun doing this, fully realizing it could all go right down the tubes, and you'd still have the things that are really important to you...your family, home, etc. I think that's a huge plus in taking the bold path.That's also one of the great things about our trades. You can invest huge and lose huge, and still put your bags on for another man for a good living wage. Makes it a little easier to dream big. Saturday morning ramble..it's raining outside....anyway, good luck, blue, with all your ventures. You're our inspiration...keep us posted.
Allen in Santa Cruz
kacy, for a lot of us, the scenario you describe...gave the framer a check for $9,000 after he asked for an advance to help him deal with some family problems, and haven't heard a word from him in two weeks...means one thing....crackhead.Or chemical dependency of some sort. Alcohol and other drugs are behind most of the take the money and disappear problems with tradesmen, in my experience.Just as you've found, often those types do good work when they're sober/straight, and are sometimes genuinely nice and good people with a serious problem. You just have to be careful about letting them have too much money. And you usually don't find that out until after the deed is done.About ten years ago, I lived in an apartment complex, and there was a little girl who was always hanging around, and I'd talked to her sometimes. I got to know her mom a little. She was a hard-working girl, going to nursing school and working full-time.She had a boyfriend who lived with her who was a painter. I'd see him coming and going in his van. He was very polite and friendly, and he mentioned a few times to send some work his way if I could.So my mom asked me if I knew a good painter, as she wanted to have her house painted. So I recommended this guy. I told her I'd never seen his work, but he seemed like a nice guy, and it might be helping the little girl and her mom. So she called him, he gave her a price, that sounded fair, and he and a helper started working. To make a long story not so long, before they had been there two weeks, they had gotten about 7 or 8 draws from her, for a few hundred at a time...constantly coming in late in the morning or not at all...acting wierd, etc. I don't remember all the details now, but it was apparent that both of these guys were abusing something, and I think it was alcohol. I gave the guy a call, and told him he needed to go ahead and get my mom's house finished, and to not ask her for any more money until he was done.He was very apologetic, toooo apologetic, and he did get over and finish the job. I say too apologetic, because for some people, apologizing just seems to come too easy, as if they have to do it all the time and are well-versed at it. That's always kind of a red flag for me. Another Saturday morning ramble...
Allen in Santa Cruz
Hey Moondance,
Thanks for your advice. I might not have made it clear but part of the money we gave him was for work they had already done. They were due some money, just not quite that much. We probably gave him more like an extra 3 or 4K. But then when you add in the 3K for roofing materials (a totally separate transaction) it hurts a bit more.
And he did not say he needed the money or that it was for a family emergency. We made a deal that he would give us a better deal on the extras (change orders) if we paid the balance of our original contract then (even though not quite all the original items of the contract were completed yet).
I truly do not think he went on a bender. It was not like that at all. The news of a death in the family did not come until the following week. It seems a bit strange that it would take 2 weeks to take care of family stuff for your wife's grandmother's passing. But who am I to judge. Maybe there's some legal stuff going on with the will or something. If his guys were still showing up at my job, I wouldn't care where the owner was. But the fact is they weren't. Supposedly they are finishing up another job first.
But I have not given up hope yet. I think deep down that they will be back. We'll see, I guess.
-Kacy
By the way, I will continue to update this situation on my other thread so as not to completely take over Blue's original post.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=53790.1
Edited 3/19/2005 2:53 pm ET by kcmarie122
Kacy,
Something is seriously wrong with this. UBuildIt's change orders are at cost to the client - there should be no upcharge for change orders.
Using Pete/George's subs for any future business you do on the home would be a good idea. They have control of the subs and the their subs do business the right way. There's leverage.
And, I know this is a horrible way to learn the lesson, but dang, girl.....no more paying anybody in advance, 'kay? I know George (your consultant) said not to - that's from experience, not just UBuildIt experience.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Moon, thanks for the upbeat response.
I agree, we do create our own reality. Frank and I were discussing why the grey haired old guy, whom I'll respectfully call Mr Gandalf, should include us in his latest venture (aventure?). There are two basic reasons...1)he'll make a lot of money....probabably twice as much as I will. 2)Because I asked to be included...I asked for his help!
Old guys that have accomplished things in life have a hard time dealing with total retirement. They lose a sense of self worth and when a youngster, even a grey haired old codger like me, asks for help, it revives their essence of being. I swear, only a blind guy would have not seen the significant change in attitude and spirit of Mr Gandalf when he came back to double check my intentions.
Mr Gandalf and I have spent the last week carefully measuring each other up in terms of compatibility. Indeed, Mr Gandalf has even spoken about our mutual motivations and has unconsciously (semi-unintentionally) signalled his pleasure of again working with someone that wants to play the same game he has played...all his life. He's also already mentioned that he doesn't intend to go back at it full time and that he probably has only a couple more deals left in him (his exact words were "two, maybe four more deals"). The one major motivation that he has, but he is not consciously speaking of is his desire to pass on some very valuable information. We all gain validation by teaching, and he is no exception.
You are right, this isn't just starting to happen, the process was started a couple of years ago while I read a book on a Florida beach. I was using my recreation ("re-creation") time to re-think my life's path. Back at home before my vacation, I had just finished the book The Cashflow Quadrant" and decided to change my financial happenstance. The author of the book told me to "learn about financial matters", something of which I had totally neglected my entire life. Up until that point in time, I had totally devoted all my educational efforts toward one thing, carpentry, and as a result, I was totally financially illiterate. Since that ephiphany, I've delved into many different arenas of financial matters. Some of the time, I felt I was wasting my time or effort, but I continued on anyways. In essence, I was preparing for my second "chance" meeting with Mr Gandalf, as well as the many other experts that will be forthcoming.
Over the years, I have learned that 98% of the wealth is controlled by 2% of the population. I've also learned that those 2% do things that are different than the other 98%. This might sound like a seminar guru's cliche, but when you analyze it, there's a lot of truth to it. For instance, let me rehash a discussion I had with Frank this week concerning Mr Gandalf. Understand that I am Frank's mentor, so I occasionally take off my partner's hat and put on my mentor's hat with him.
Here's how the conversation went....I do most of the talking....: "Frank, 98% of the people do not educate themselves about financial matters. When you heard the man say that he was retired and I asked him from what, he replied "syndications". I immediately responed and asked if he would teach me about them. What did you think when you heard him say that?" Frank replied "I didn't have a clue what he meant". "That's the difference between you and I Frank", I responded. I continued "Furthermore, if Mr Gandalf repeated that exact thing to every particiapant in this show, fewer than 10 out of 100 would know what he was talking about and even a lower percentage than that would ask for his help to learn more about them, even if they knew what they were. I've spent considerable time learing about syndications and indeed have been formulating plans to implement them. This opportunity to ask for mentorship presented itself and I was open and willing to embrace it. I wasn't that smart the first time that Mr Gandalf entered my life."
You are right too Moondance, I am having fun. If you'd fully understand how bad the last year trainwrecked my cashflow, you'd have to think I was looney for being so calm and happy. Frank was all stressed out and I was just laughing at him. I remember the days when I too thought the sky was falling when cashflow ceased, but now I just patiently continue on doing some of the right things, knowing that we'll smooth things over next month.
I'm more amazed that I'm entertaining the idea that I'll deal with retail homeimprovements!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Update on Mr Gandalf...
We talked this afternoon...he's be recuperating from a medical procedure so I've been laying low. I sent him a few emails containing the terraserver and a survey of our primary target right now with some new information. The new info tells us that the property will be able to produce either 80 or 104 buildable lots. We're not quite sure at this juncture. After discussing some various strategies, he decides that the best course of action will be to walk in there and make the offer on Monday. So, just like that, we're going to make an offer of somewhere around 3.8 million dollars....with the appropriate outs of course.
After further discussion, we decided to meet with another interested party that may have some additional information first. We'll make that offer on Tuesday instead!
Have I mentioned that I love working with Mr Gandalf?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue-
Just a word regarding "Mr Gandalf", since I worked for a guy who sounds just like him. Be careful, and don't spend any more time on dealings with him than you're willing to lose/waste.
My "Mr Gandalf" couldn't complete a sentence without the words "joint venture", "syndicate", etc in it. Every time I'd talk to him, there was some great new deal in the works, NONE of which ever materialized. I watched investors come and go, spending money on due diligence, and nothing ever took place. Fifteen years later, he finally completed one deal and made a million or so (though it consumed three years of his time), and the guy on the other end may have taken a beating.
Just a heads up- hopefully your experience will be different.
Bob
Bob, Mr Gandalf would have to be spinning a very long elaborate tale. The guy would have to be insane to create such a deep scheme with no payoff. I don't have any doubt whatsoever about his authenticity. Even if he was whacked, I'll find out in about a week.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
The "long, elaborate tale" sounds familiar....lol. To hear my "Mr Gandalf" tell it, you'd think he'd had dozens of deals under his belt, millions in the bank, and investors lined up at his door. It's good that you'll know if he's the real deal within a week- I wouldn't spend any more time than that without doing some in-depth financial research on him.
Hope it all works out,
Bob
Bob, I wasn't born yesterday but I appreciate your warning.
I'm as skeptical as the next guy about a lot of things, but I just haven't found even one little warning sign. When I met the guy the first time he basically told me that he was winding down his career...retiring. At that time, he offered to sell me a lakefront lot, since I had told him I like lakefrontage. We walked a beautiful 3 acre parcel that had 300 foot of frontage. At that time, he offered to let me spec a house on it if I wanted to, if I didn't want to buy it outright. I told him I'd think about it.
After thinking a little bit about it, I decided that I wasn't ready to start speccing houses yet, especially high end lakefront houses that are located out in the country a bit. That would have been a very risky deal indeed and thankfully I dodged that offer.
He still has that piece, less 43' of frontage (he sold a small trinangular piece for 25k a year or so ago). He said that he likes to go out there a couple of times a year and fish off the banks....I can easily believe that. But, he said, since it's such a valuable piece, he'd probably be still willing to sell it or let someone spec on it. He now wants 300k for the piece and it's worth it. Both Frank and I will definitly be pitching the lot to high end clients this year!
A few years ago, we also looked over some other "leftover" parcels of his deals. At one site, he had a bit of trouble remembering which of two country lots were his. As we wandered through the fields, the neighbor walked out and wondered what we were doing walking all over his property. Mr Gandalf explained that he still owned one of the lots, but couldn't remember which one. Then, the two guys remembered each other...Mr Gandalf had sold the man the empty lot next to his house. This was not a staged event. It was real and I could easily see that the two men had indeed been involved in a mutually agreeable land transaction. There were a couple more things, but I don't feel the need to explain them. It'd be too much typing.
Basically Bob, I have no reason to believe that Mr Gandalf is doing anything less than attempting to make a couple more big hits before he retires again. Personally, I hope he does another deal and makes a cool million or so. The most important thing that I'm after is standing next to him while he negotiates, interrogates and arranges these syndications. I'm also interested in the paperwork, how and why the "outs" work in big deal. Lastly, I want to hang out a little while with the CPA's and Lawyers that participate in these deals by contributing their expertise, as well as buying in as investors.
I guess I could chase Mr Gandalf away again and crawl safely back into my routine....
Nah!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Mr Gandalf update.
Our information gathering meeting went so-so today. Our intent was to glean enough info about our target property to formulate an offer or strategy. Instead, it turned quickly into a reversal, the party who already had invested a bit of time was interested in finding out what kind of investments might be suitable for us. I was mildly and pleasantly surprised that Mr Gandalf was so candid about his current stature. If I ever had any doubt about his credibility, it was put to rest today. There were numerous questions that I would have somewhat dodged, or steered away from, but he layed it all out. After the meeting we discussed the turn of events and Mr Gandalf just basically stated that he'd rather get all the facts out and see if we can develop a mutual reason to co-operate, instead of skirting things and beating around the bush. It's obvious that My Gandalf is going to steer his ship, no matter who gets involved.
Here's the biggest events that are listed on my two pages of notes.
1) Our maximum investor bankroll is about 10 million, give or take a few mill either way. That means, I have to limit my search for smaller projects...LOL! 2) The type of the investment doesn't really matter, many of the investors really don't want to know what the project is, they're only interested in the numbers...the returns. 3)Mr Gandalf was asked if a 40 story loft conversion project in the Downtown Developement District would be palatable to the investor group. Yes, those kinds of investments add appeal to the investors because they are exciting and have a high profile. The investors get to have bragging rights amongst their friends and he's already worked with a group of Drs that have done loft conversions in a different downtown district. 4)Mr Gandalf always takes his cut on the tail end, everyone else gets paid first, except for some necessary fees and expenses. 5) Mr Gandalf has done 24 deals. 23 were winners, one didn't go as planned. He didn't take his cut at the end and that was enough to satisfy all the investors. His investors therefore are batting 1000. Mr Gandalf is batting .960.
Okay....I'm learning a little about syndications.
Oh yeah, one more thing. The 3.8 mill lowest bid is now up to 4.1. Final decisions are going to be made in Chicago the week after Easter. Theres a large commercial bldg available to build with the cash generated from the land sale. No one in the group has any experience with commercial projects...yet!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue, thanks for sharing all this, very interesting.Keep us updated.
Butch, your welcome. I will keep you updated, just for the fun of it. I'm totally interested in the process myself because this is something that I've been studying for quite a while now. I think a few in here might be interested but I'm also sure that a majority would be skeptical. The 98% & 2% ratio filters down into every equation.
One of the things I've noticed is that Mr Gandalf is re-affirming all the things I've read and learned. I haven't found anything inconsistent about his approach to what I thought should happen. Everything he says and does revolves around one...finding a deal that will easily make sense to investors. It doesn't matter if the deal is big, medium or small, it has to make sense and the exit strategy must me easily explained. When any idea is discussed, he will quickly dismiss it if he can find even the slightest negative. For instance, we are driving by a beautiful property. It looks great to me, he sees that it's close to the river. I think rivers are great, he sees them as a threat because the property is "low". The negative trumps the beauty.
He is cautious. He will not attempt to force any thing. It has to flow easy.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Mr Gandalf update:
We've been talking to different people and asking around about different things. One of our meetings resulted in some talk about a downtown building deal that would involve some condo loft building. Today I got the word that a building has been put under contract. Mr Gandalf is meeting tomorrow with the person that has put the building under contract. He is exploring how his funding and our company will play a part in this endeavor. He mentioned that there is a very short time frame to pull all the parts together. 60 days was mentioned. That means that a huge amount of information must be gathered, checked, verified and if it all makes sense, then a package must be created that is presentable to investors. It has to make sense financially and it has to have some appeal in some way.
I think SamT calls this one sex appeal.
The downtown area is booming with redevelopments. Mr Gandalf is pretty anxious to learn more about this one. So am I.
It's nice when we have people bringing us deals!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Friday before the owner went MIA, we paid him a big check
Big time no no. No sub gets ahead of you. (And I are one) You just financed a bender. They always have such a sad face. Just say no. That's why General Contractors are the pros. They've seen this stuff over and over. As a HO contractor you are a 1 off. That framer will never see you again. You have zero leverage with him. U Buildit has very little leverage either.
You are in a tuff spot. Good luck
Geez, I thought your booth looked pretty good....
And a million bucks worth of business to bid on.....???
Sounds like it was time well spent.
Nikki, actually a million bucks worth of bids isn't all that impressive. We've got about 15 leads on varying types of additions or buildups ranging in value of 30 to 130k. There are about 5, maybe as many as 7 possible rough frames ranging in value of 15 to 40k. A guy dropped a basement build on the table that looks like 130-150k worth of work.
We are going to take a harder look at our "no remodeling" position. We're rethinking our hardline stance since were going to be in the "people" business anyways when we're doing roughs directly for homeowners.
Next year, I think I'll grow a beard and long hair, set up some sawhorses and plop some beer cans on it....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I've been in booths at home shows for some of the truss companies I've worked for. So I have a sort of love/hate thing with home shows. You meet some interesting people, and the networking is good. But you always get morons in there too.
Probably my favorite moron was a guy I mentioned in the truss uplift thread. He had built his own house, and had serious uplift problems. And he came in with a real smart-a$$ed attitude, too.
After he described his problem, I started asking him some questions. He had installed vented aluminum soffit and ridge vents. But he had never heard of proper vents. I asked him he he had blocked off the airflow at the outside walls. He said he had crawled out there with the hose of the insulation blower and blown the soffits full of insulation.
.
I've always wanted to set up a real impressive floor truss display. Like set up some floor trusses, and park a big dually pickup on top of them.
I think that would attract a lot of attention. But the owners would never go along with the idea due to liability concerns.
.
I also remember meeting one of the women who worked for one of our customers. Turns out she had a tattoo on one of her breasts that she liked to show off with low cut dresses. It was hard to talk to her and maintain eye contact.
Boss, Luckily I didn't run into any crackpots. Most of the people were simply there for something to do...that tells you how boring Michigan is in March! There were a couple of negative, distrustful people, but luckily they didn't offer their names for my list and I wasn't asking for them!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Okay....on with my show story....this one might get a bit long....I'm fired up about it though...
Did any of you guys read the Tolkein book called The Hobbit? There's a character in there by the name of Gandalf. The story I'm about to tell got me thinking about how Gandalf would just pop up. I think you'll know what I mean...
First, we have to travel back about 6 or 7 years ago. I was selling some lake lots that I owned (offering to do a build) and I put an ad in the classifieds. A gentleman called and got directions to come out to look. I'll call him Mr Gandalf. Anyways, Mr Gandalf looks over what I have to offer and then starts asking if I might be interested in taking a look at a lot that he owns, not too far away. So, since I'm always interested in lakefront property, I went and had a look with him. He had a beautiful lot, 300' of frontage.
After trying to figure out what it might be worth and arriving at a 90k figure, we talked about me speccing a house on it. After discussing that and other things, we got to talking and I soon fgound out that Mr Gandalf had simply been doing property deals all his life. We eventually hopped in my van and we drove 1/4 of the county. At some point in time, he asked me if I might be interested in doing some developing....he drove me by a condo project that was ongoing and wondered if I would be open to doing something like that.
Now, I'm not the sharpest bowling ball on the rack, and one of my most major faults is my fear of asking questions, because I'm afraid they'll figure out that I really don't know how to do anything other than Carpentry. So, when Mr Gandalf offered to involve me in a project of that size and scope, the idea overwhelmed me and instead of asking about the scope of my involvement and the size/type of investment that I would have to make, I automatically assumed that it was too big a deal for me, since I was a small potato rough frame contractor.
Nothing really came of our meeting...all I knew was that he was a guy that wasn't a realtor and had somehow earned a nice living doing "deals". Years later, after I started studying Real Estate investment, I thought about Mr Gandalf, and realized that he was someone that I would very much like to work with as a mentor and realized that I had made a colossal mistake by not thoroughly exploring his offer.
Fast forward to the show. A man walks up and starts talking to me about building a guest house on a lake lot. We chatted a bit about that and somehow or another the topic of his retirement comes up. I always ask people what they retired from, because it is a source of pride and I like to let them brag a bit. He tells me that he used to "syndicate". Well, that word perks my ears right up now, because I've been studying about syndicates so I immediatly remember my last lost opportunity and I blurt out that I'd love to pick his brain and learn about syndicating. He politely tells me that he would be glad to share some of his experiences if I really wanted to learn a little. I enthusiastically affirm my original request and he tells me to call him. He grabs a pad of paper and scrawls his name and phone number on it, waves goodbye and tells me to call him.
As he walks away, I look down at his name and low and behold, it's Mr Gandalf...the same guy I had met 7 years ago and was too stupid to admit that I didn't know what he knew! Flabbergasted, I mentioned to Frank that I knew the guy and that I was glad that I was smart enough to ask for help this time. Frank had already heard the story of my missed opportunity a few times. I told Frank, that Mr Gandalf would be my first call tomorrow after the show ended.
Now the good part. About an hour later, Mr Gandalf come back! His eyes are blazing with excitement. He comes up to me and asks "We're you serious about learning about syndications"? I say yes the third time and he says "Good...I just ran into an old attorney friend that I've done some deals with and he says he's got some investors...let's do some deals again".
I'll say this...I could tell that Mr Gandalf was back in the hunt....he's a player again. He walked away full of energy and of course he was my first call on Monday morning.
Today, we spent the day exploring some raw land that will split into 120 build lots and the product will market at about 375k. The asking price on the acreage is somewheres around 5.5 million. "No problem" says Mr. Gandalf. They'll do the land, we'll do the builds. Neither Mr Gandalf or I will put anything into the deal. Our profit on the builds will be reduced as our contribution. Mr Gandalf's contribution is his co-ordinating and field footwork. I'm just glad to get to ride around and listen to how to structure these deals....
Some of you in here are afraid to explore Limited Partnerships and Joint Ventures. I was afraid of them before I studied them and understood their role in the development of property. I'm not afraid of them anymore, and I'm not so smart I won't ask for help anymore.
I think I know what Bilbo felt like.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Jeeze Blue...we're more alike than I thought. FERDALUVACHRIST be careful man!
But Enjoy the ride. Invest what you can afford to lose. Mentors happen and they are great. When you are partners with a 500lb gorilla you may get smashed around a bit...especially when you have a skipping rope tethering you together. Even if you lose... you will gain valuable knowledge.
I was running with a few guys that wanted to invest in my company...get some government support, attract some investors and then cash their share out. Old friend in a related business, who I knew very well actually.
After I got the letter of support from the government something happened that I was not privy to and those guys disappeared. I am still using the lawyer in the group-great guy and really sharp. The others had a spell of bad luck methinks. Something showed up on google about my friend being banned from trading on the stock markets....
I am still stupid-much to learn-because all the warning signs were there-and I still wanted to trust my old friend.
Keep an eye open Blue... and Congrats!
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
But Enjoy the ride. Invest what you can afford to lose. Mentors happen and they are great.
Lawrence, thanks for the warning to be careful. First, understand that I don't have to invest a penny, only my time and I'll be paid for my time anyways.
I can't possibly convey how happy this gentleman is to get back in the game. He was bored silly in retirement and longed for the action. He told me today, that he won't go at it like he used to but I don't believe a word. He's so antsy to figure out how big the parcel is that he's going to pace off the 40 acres just to get rough idea. He'll be at the planning department tomorrow and will be studying the local market again to get up to speed on market conditions.
All I have to do is hang on to his coattails and build a few houses....
Mr Gandalf is more pumped than I am!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"Luckily I didn't run into any crackpots."
Speaking of crackpots - Probably my favorite was an old guy who walked up to our booth a few years ago.
There were 2 of us in the booth. I was talking to someone, and this old guy walked up to the guy who was in the boot with me. He was pretty green, and didn't have a lot of self confidence.
The old guy walks up and says: "I could kick your a$$". My sidekick just looks at him, dumbfounded
So the old guy repeats himself: "I could kick your a$$ right now. You don't think I can, do ya?"
My sidekick was at a complete loss for words.
Mind you, this guy was probably 70 years old, and pretty frail. He couldn't kick a kitten's a$$.
But he went on to tell my sidekick how he was in the marines, and could kill him with his bare if he wanted to.
Eventually the old guy wandered off to torment someone else.
Pretty funny stuff.
The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. [Bertrand Russell]
We did a show last weekend... had to do the show deck, set up all the walls for the show, plan seminars 6 over the weekend. The guys were late, the walls showed up at 3 pm with 1 day to set up. The first shot was our booth at this show.
Second shot was a show about a year ago... we had a whole half day to set that up.
We use the same structures all year, but we also have the benefit of a few contractors to bring something interesting in as marketing.
Your booth looked pretty good for a first show.
What I have learned... travel light. I'm getting a couple of the corner displays with the blown up photo and back lights... and some light fold up type shelving to display plans. Shows aren't easy. Our booth last weekend had upto 50 people iin it at a time. Everyone at the show was whining about low traffic, but we did well.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Lawrence, that looks awesome! How big of a space? What do you mean seminar? How much gross product do you think your efforts will generate? How much did the show space cost?
Lots of q's!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
The one with unfinished cedar was a double booth (10x20), but the aisles are so wide and that post placed so badly, they let us expand to it. Booths there I think are $1000-1500, but being a contributing editor for their magazine...(Canadian Home Workshop Magazine) The booth is free for us.
The other show was "Home and Country Magazine's show". Normally a good show as well-however last year they had scheduling problems and it was a waste of time.
The contractors likely will end up with more than $100,000 in sales from leads through the summer(some are collaborative projects with clients-they frame-we trim). Direct plan sales about $2500-Residual sales likely about $1000 through the summer. Like I said, setup goes quick, and we get paid for setting up their booth... we use that towards ads in their other magazines-that way we get top dollar for our hourly rate. (Contra) They have a full page worth $15000 in Canadian Gardening this May-big magazine up here.
One of our guys (Lee in Muskoka) did the curved Cedar Deck on the main stage from my design and the lumber was paid for by the Western Red Cedar Association... see the photo below. All the local guys brought something-then we ship all the structures to the other large shows, guys trade and swap for their smaller shows. The structures get liquidated mid summer.
I did seminars on deck building techniques, talked a bit about GardenStructure.com. Some of the topics I was playing with was Composite decking, how to cut decking and keep it tight, choosing lumber that won't crack and our version of frost free footings. I had never done seminars before, so this was a chance to try things out and talk about all kinds of things.
Walking around a guy recognized me from the stage and asked if I would give a level away they were trying to blow out... The question was... who can tell me how to check if this level is accurate? Only 1-He won the level and the crowd learned something. They were so shocked to find out that 8 of 10 levels on the shelf were not accurate.
The main reason I was at the show was to find contractors to fill in spots we needed someone, most areas I got 2 or 3 leads for... Definitely worth doing.
Next show I think is the Spring National Home Show in Toronto. Some of the guys do smaller local shows-which works really well for them. We are usually one of the busiest booths in the shows. Full page ad in the show guide helps too.
For Blooms (Toronto's version of the Philadelphia Flower Show) they use indentured labor to create the most gorgeous gardens you will ever find underground. It's a horrible show to get into-and once you are set up the crowd is fickle and depressed (too early in the year). I decided to cherry pick the show. All the beautiful woodwork displays in the show gardens get a 6" name on a sign near the entrance of the garden along with 20 other contributors. I bought a full page ad in the show guide and saved myself 2 weeks of time and the expenses associated with attending.
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Hey Blue I was just wondering how much was it for a both?
Ron, the 10 x 8 booth was $1250.
It appears that it was money well spent even if I just consider the possible work and none of the networking opportunities.
One of the things that I've always overlooked about these shows is the credibility factor. When the general public see us in the show, they automatically award us some higher standard of existence because of, well...were in the show! The show is a third party validation that adds value to your product. It's actually pretty amazing....I wish I had done this back in 1982 when I started....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!