Looking for any and all input here. I’m looking at buying/leasing a medium sized telehandler. Cat TH330B or Gehl CT7-23Turbo are top on the list now, and Bobcat V723 is second. It would be used for everything and anything I could. I’ll have one ~3,000 SF single family going this summer, one about the same size commercial project, and a few other things going on (sawmill project, remodel or two).
I’m tired of never having one when I need it, and having to schedule my projects around getting one from the rental center, plus was thinking it would be great for cleaning sites, plowing snow, and I’d come up with lots of other uses if it were always around and had some handy attachments (forks, bucket, work platform, snowplow, grapple…). Am I crazy for considering this, or is it going to make my life easier?
Replies
frenchy will be along shortly to educate you.
My only comment is the same one I ask myself and others when making a large capital investment.
Can I afford to make payments on it when I am not earning money off of it?
If "Yes" then it is pleasure to own and have around.
If "NO" then I have just become a slave to the machine.
I personally do not enjoy being a slave to anything.
dovetail.
If you can remain busy you can buy a great used telehandler today between $650 & $750 a month with nothing down. That's a machine that will work for you for 20 + years with low maintinace (budget about $500 a year) but only take 5 years to pay for
IN addition telehandlers can be used as collateral for loans should you ever need one..
While that sort of money might seem high don't forget it will save you over 20% of the time you normally take to build things and you will use 20% fewer people doing it.. to put that into numbers you will have to spend around tat's a savings of 8 hours per week per man.. and you will use a couple less men to do the same job!
We bought one when we were framing full time. It turned into a wash. We sold it for what we owed on it.
It would have been the same if we rented. I don't know how the tax situation would have been though. There was some significant tax breaks when we bought ours.
I believe there will be some incentives in the stimulus package, so the tax situation might be a consideration this time too.
I'll tell you what I'm hearing from you: you are trying to talk yourself into this machine. You already know about renting them, and you are trying to justify it even though you don't really have a need for it every day of the year.
If you worked every day last year, think about how many days you didn't really need it. If you could have effectively used it, then buy one. If you know it would sit, then rent. They are incredibly handy for many things if you are actively in the type of business that needs them. The can provide you with an incredible boost in safety, productivity and the also improve your image in the construction community.
If you can't afford them, then don't tie yourself to that monthly anchor. Rent them. On the other hand, you should be able to get a very good deal on used one. I'd buy a used one and save the 50k.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
calling frenchy
He needs to read the thread you did on this.
Now if he had only used the words flooring and shellac, frenchy would be on this like flies on sh!t
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Frenchy just about has me talked into buying one even as DIY only!
all the contractors here just rent them for the job, nobody buys them. rent,supplier does maintance, price is pass on to project owner
the flooring, shellac, flies or sh!t????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
that's all it took...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
News Flash - this endeavor (selling mere machines) didn't work out so well for the all knowing - second coming.
Ladders are o.k if you have to get off the floor - but the the floor is the preffered place to be- so you're stupid to get off the floor in the first place.
Please try to keep up, you need to check in more often to find out where the preferred target has moved to.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
How likely is it the bottom will drop out of your market? Small contractors around Boise thought we'd be building like crazy for years to come, now they are delivering packages for UPS, or learning how to be elevator service mechanics. I see equipment for sale everywhere and someone is taking it in the shorts.
If you have the resources to buy it outright and weather any storm then it sounds like you would save some money on it, plus it's always available so you'll be slightly more productive.
Personally, I think you'd be better off with a skid steer for a tool to be used daily rather than teach the fat-fingered football player to build ships in a bottle when he isn't doing what he's best at.
Iv'e worked around many situations where equiment is rented to other small contractors for a reduced rate over the rental yard and it works great for everyone. It will pay for the machine, but it's a shame when friendships or wear and tear goes bad.
With a company your size I'd say it will be hard to justify putting that capital into a machine used so little unless it's part of a plan to change the way you do business and be more productive, or you're getting one that's a little tired. If you always wanted one, that's a good reason, for what it's worth.
I know too many small contractors who have a shop to hold all the ####, vehicles and equipment they barely ever use. Then there are the guys who think a visible office with someone to answer the phones and greet people is a must have, only to never see a client in the door and not trust the $8/hr. gal up front to take a good message. *chuckle*
Cheers,
Don
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
robinpillars,
First the Cat will soon be an orphan.. plus Caterpillar has an extremely poor record of holding value due to it's high maintinace costs.. (realize it's made in England and there is a good reason the British have just about stopped making cars) {I love both MY MG'S and Jaguars} One final point is the Cat was never designed as a construction machine.. it's was built for European farmers.
The small Gehl is a good solid forkift if limited in ability. Too limited to be something you should consider! You will quickly outgrow it and regret not buying larger..
I would stay as far away from the Bobcat as humanly possible.. It's made in France.. and about as reliable .. getting parts for that will be extremely difficult as time goes buy and the price of those parts will include an airplane trip and the dollar/Euro differental.
Gehl makes a bigger forklift that is pretty decent if all you ever plan on building is smaller homes garages and small commercial buildings. 34 feet of boom is the absolute minimum length you should ever consider!
Hands down the finest telehandler made is the Ingersol Rand VR 642 it's way more stable than others, very capable, will lift far more than it's rated for and has a record of extremely low maintinace.
Do not buy new! Not now!
Too many great used pieces are out there at prices that are a fraction of real value..
Forklifts if they are used by home builders don't wear out. Maintinace is extremely low.. I used to tell my customers to put $500 a year in the maintinace fund and when they retired in 25 years there would still be money in that fund.
The exception is forklifts used by masons!
Do not buy one of those!
Masons normally spill concrete all over the forklift and when it dries it makes grease joints impossible to get at so they are never greased.. That means when they go to sell it all the bushings and pivot points (and there are more than a hundred) will be worn out. Fixing them is $10,000 of thousands of dollars.
Plus the sand and grit that blows around will scour the hydraulic rams and now you are spending another ten thousand dollars fixing all that..
Avoid masonary machines!
Prices.. there are several good and great telehandlers available in the $30,000 range some even cheaper as desperate framers who haven't had a job in over a year look to bail.
Hours don't matter.. a new hour meter costs only $45. to put in and there is no law that requires them to reflect true hours.. condition isn't easy to judge.. don't go by paint job or tires or anything obvious.. a new paint job can be done for $2000 or bad spots touched up for even less.. new tires cost a little over $250 each and a replacement seat can be under $90..
Clever dealers will paint, put new decales, new seat and tires on a worn out toad and rent it once or twice to get a little of the shiney rubbed off.. They have under $5,000 in making a sows ear look like a silk purse..
Worse still are tip overs!
When a forklift tips over a lot of hidden damage occurs that makes it a real place to spend a lot of money on something that never will be right..
OK that's the scary stuff,
Now the good stuff..
Owning a telehandler is one of the best decisions a contractor can make.. even now!
You will learn how to build things 20% faster using 20% less people and doing it much much safer and easier!
They are stone reliable and never argue with the boss.. It should take you about 5 years to pay for it and they will reliably last you 20 years past that!
so for 20 years you will have a loyal hardworking employee who never complains or argues.. Never fails to show up and needs little attention..
Even while you are paying for it you can if you remain busy make 10 to 20% over and above what it costs you to payfor..
Insurance is between $800 & $1000 a year.. certain brands can be road driven to and from local job sites. (others while techincallly can shouldn't)
A great used telehandler will cost you about $650 to $750 a month with nothing down and take 5 years to pay for.. You can often refinance and once it's paid for be used as collateral should you ever need to..
I'll be glad to share my 17 years experiance with you. Don't hesitate to ask me anything..
ps I no longer sell them.
I want one and I haven't lifted a hammer in 2 years...
dittos in the IR. much better than the others, from personal experience of working, and operating them
I have a couple, one being that IR (other a Skytrack). Your advise is good, I'd add only that if you own a used one, you may be in for some shockingly big repair tickets should anyone do anything stupid with it. There is nothing cheap about operating a machine like this. Tires are at least $350, plus the service call, plus mounting and tube. Foam fill is $1000 per tire!
Add to that, how are you going to transport that behemoth which weighs almost 20,000 lbs?
All this needs to be caclulated in to the equation.
Thanks for all the responses. I liked the Cats for the dealer network locally (I went to school with the owner of the big dealer) and the attachment selection. I will look more into the Gehl and the IR's. I was torn between the smaller machines and the bigger. I was liking the price of the 2-section booms better, but I think they are too small, and that certainly seems to be echoed here. I don't think keeping it busy will be too much of a problem, and paying for it when it's not isn't a problem. It will need to have a cab, and it will need to move snow to work for me, but otherwise it will be framing work and typical material handling. That should keep me in good shape. I need to be able to road it from site to site too. Maintenance, moving it (as long as I can road it short distances a fair amount) and operators won't be a problem. I used to be a lot more civil oriented, and have owned most equipment in the past (988's D-9's, Off-road dump trucks, tandems, all types of backhoes and excavators, motorgraders, pull graders, skid steers...). How are the loader abilities of the bigger machines? I'm not expecting to use it as an earthmover, but I would like to move and place aggregate, move snow and do some grading with it as required?Rob
Edited 3/5/2008 9:59 pm ET by robinpillars
robinpillars,
Loader capcities of of telehandlers is for rehandling only.. That is, it's not for pioneer capability unless you are prepared for a lot of boom replacement. (don't dig the basement but go ahead and back fill) I would be extremly ginger with Lull's booms as well.. They have a history since 1995 of being weak.. ReGrading is a normal use for these machines.. they certainly do tear up the the job site especially if the ground is wet..
The strongest boom out there is in the bigger Gehl's it was actually designed as a dual function machine..
That is a bit of a misnomer in that the Gehl boom sags more than most booms but side to side loading is better.
Gehl also has the strongest transmission on the market.. however it's hubs tend to be weak.. Well they are plenty strong enough but they have a very poor system for dealing with filling and draining the lube out of them.. Since they have relatively little lube in them that translates to a weakness..
Speaking of hubs.. don't drive these long distances..!/2 max. Several reasons.. first the tires will wear out quickly and second the seals and hubs of anybodies forklift will overheat after about 1/2 hour or so (sooner for Gehl) and faster on hot days..
The bucket and jib are two highly recommended options.. Bucket can be used for jobsite cleanup.. nothing like tossing all the debris from the first second and even third floor into the bucket and have him run it over to the dumpster , rather than haul bins and cans etc. back and forth..
Moving snow out of the way and etc. is a great use for the bucket,, however if you plan on doing snow plowing make sure you get a impact protecting spring loaded snow plough. don't run up and down the street or parking lot using the bucket.. if you hook the corner of the bucket severe damage can occur to the boom.
Interesting tidbit.. with a SMV triangle on the forklift your 6 year old child can legally drive it down the road. No license required! It's not a motor vehical.. (of course the cops won't like that,, <grin>) But technically a 50 ton crane isn't either!
Oh on the other hand you will need a telehandlers operators license. as of Dec.. 1999 it's issued by the owner of the company you work for but he either has to be certified as a trainer or have someone trained as an operator instructor certify him..
The license issued by other companies isn't valid.
The fastest selling new telehandlers nowdays are the big 4 section boom ones.. lengths up to 56 feet.. but now you have a bigger machine.. that weighs another 10,000 pounds..
As bigger and bigger homes are being built the added length of their ability to reach and work are becomeing more and more valuable..
One feature I would definately add is the remote control unit.. that allows an operator to position the telehandler, park it. Get up in the work platform, start the machine and run all the hydraulic controls from the platform.. very very useful!
Cold weather..
Special care needs to be used with telehandlers in really cold weather.. Any telehandler using a Perkins engine cannot ever have either used to start it.. so it has to have a great battery..
Second nowdays all newer telehandlers uses a variable dispalcement hydraulic pump.. unless it's working no fluid is being pumped.. so you can start one up and let it run 1/2 the morning and you will find the steering cannot be moved. I drove one once on a cold day and went to turn the corner only to find I couldn't! The brakes were so hard I almost couldn't even stop!
Ingersol Rand has an option whereby you can use GM auto transmission fluid and that solves the problem .. other telehandlers will ned that special snythetic fluid i order to operate smoothly in really cold climates..
Edited 3/6/2008 12:15 am ET by frenchy
Thanks for all the advice. I am pretty sold on a used one at this point, and am looking to pick one up in the next couple of months. I may talk to a couple friends and see if there are any great deals on new ones out there though.
I am pretty set on the Gehl now would love to find a DL series 8,000, 44 ft or so.
There are some good deals on JCB's fairly close that I am looking at too. A couple 550's that are well below my budget and located close. Any input on JCB's?
Rob
robinpillars,
Do not make the mistake so many do that an 8000 pound is more stable than a 6000 pound.. once you understand the dynamics of telehandlers you'll understand how wrong that is..
Please realise that the 8000# and the 6000 pound are exactly the same chassis. the only differance is between the amount of weight on the counterweights.. That does not translate to more stability!!!!!!!please ask me about the stability triangle and how that affects stability.
You can get either a 40foot, a 42 foot, or a 44 foot boom with either chassis.
With Gehl you have your choice of either a Perkins or a John Deere desiel. The Perkins is not as durable engine as the John Deere is nor are parts as readily available. In addition it has one fundamental weakness that sooner or later will get you..
It has a prechamber.. that provides for clean emisions and slightly better fuel economy however if you read the owners manual for the Perkapillar (made by Perkins in England but owned by Catapillar) it clearly states to never use either to assit in starting..
There isn't a place in the country where some diesel mechanic doesn't have a can of either in his toolbox.. They squirt it in hoping to get away with it and maybe they do.. probably not!. New head gasket time maybe worse!!
John Deere on the other hand is rated to start with the aide of either and it's a factory installed option on many of them.. (so is Cummins)
Both John Deere and Cummins are Made in America
The reasonable economic life of a John Deere engine properly maintained is about 10 to 12,000 hours some are capable of getting all the way to 20,000 before overhaul is mandated..
The Perkapillar on the other hand I've never seeen over 6000 hours and the best I've heard mechancics talk about is 8000 hours..
(for information the Cummins has similar life span to the John Deere.)
John Deere and Cummins have tons of will fit parts for them, parts prices are kept in line .. not so with the Perkapillar.. Caterpillar charges a real premium for their parts over will fit parts..
With the Gehl.. change the hub oil as soon as you buy it!
I promise you it hasn't been done properly,, it's too expensive ,, too time consuming!
read the operators manual you will be shocked at how often they recommend doing it and if you've been involved with them (as I have) you'll know the cost of failing to change oil regularly!
Gehl is a very well made strudy well designed telehandler that is more stable than most but not as stable as Ingersol Rand.. it weighs about 2000 pounds more than the IR so allow for that when you move it around..
The factory tells you that..
It has what is called a rear axle stabilizer system. (RAS)* it comes on at 65degrees of boom angle and then you cannot drive forward or backwards nor tilt left or right when you are past that point..
With a 44 foot boom that makes your maximum working height effectively about 37 feet. I don't have the charts right in front of me.. But I'm pretty close to correct (I sold them for 3 1/2 years)
Only Ingersol Rand doesn't have that system.. so with Ingersol Rand you can work to a maximum height of 42 feet 11 inches and still drive forward backwards and tlit left and right..
That is a major consideration!
In addition Gehl when the boom is all the way up the back of the forks are over the front tires.. what that means is to get to it's max working height you actually have to be inside the building (or at least your front tires do)
Caterpillar and Ingersol Rand both have booms which extend out in front of the tires with the boom fully elevated.. In the case of Ingersol Rand it's 37 inches..
Avoid JCB like the plague!
Like Caterpillar it's made in England primarily for farmers. Unlike Caterpillar it has a extremely poor dealer network.. our local dealer has changed 7 times in the 17 years I've sold telehandlers.. and those who used to sell them have no idea of where to buy parts usually and don't want to go on service calls becuse of difficulty in getting parts..
Like Caterpillar it is loaded with operator comfort features.. maybe farmers are more carefull or gentle with equipment because true construction grade telehadlers like Lull, Skytrack, Ingersol Rand, Gehl, are so much more reliable and less costly to own..
* ask me about this system, the government forces it to be on every major telehandler. (except Ingersol Rand) for stability reasons..
Frenchy...you are good for something! Thanks for all your information! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Does anyone use a Pettibone brand? We use a model with a 40 foot stick, 4044. We work outside of Chicago.
purpleray,
I'm very familar with Pettibone. They have a decent model but it has a small market share and falling quickly.. here In Minnesota they have a strong dealer with a good parts inventory. That' has changed nationally with their abortive attempt to make a Lull knock off.. which has brought the company to real fincial trouble..
The Old Pettibone B66 was an early telehandler back when Shorty Lull still was basing his forklift off Oliver tractors.
Pettibone was the alternative to Lulls and remains acceptable to many masons.. However,, they are too slow and awkward to be viable in competition with many of the newer models..
Frenchy,
We've had great success with the IR VR1056 (2002) and a 1998 VR90B.
The only problem with the 1056 is that on the outrigger, we keep shearing off the bolt that holds the leafs to the underside of the outrigger. Other than that, its been great.
The VR90B we had some problems with it this year, but the mechanic finally figured it out. It looks like there were two fuel pumps on it and the first one wouldn't let fuel through or something. He got rid of it. It didn't show up in the book, so he figures someone added it at some point. Other than that it runs great.
We bought both machines taking advantage of the tax incentives a few years back. We bought the 1056 in early 05 and the 90B in late 2003.
Timuhler
Have someone check the bolt alignment.. you might find that the bolt is misaligned from true pivot..
IR is one of the very few telehandlers which has center pivot outriggers.. (they allow frame tilting without moving the outriggers)
heh heh, frenchy said masonary.
Peach full,easy feelin'.
and either.... :)
BP
To you as well I must prostrate myself with humility and endeavor to never make that error again. Please accept my sincere apology.
hey - at least ya know we're payin' attention and not sleepin' in class!:)
I will chime in, the IR is the best... The rest are a lot harder to operate and easier to get into trouble on.
I think I have almost tipped them all over. The IR seems to be the most forgiving.
rez,
my face is crestfallen with chagrin.. I am mortified by my error and humbly apologize..
please accept my apology and I shall endeavor to never do it again..
(untill the next time <grin>)
well gee, when you say it like that I guess we all can just shine it on this once then.
And thanks for the brief on the equipment. A few paragraphs can certainly enlighten one from your firsthand experience of years. View Image
Peach full,easy feelin'.
I rented a "6K/42", meaning the max capacity is 6000lb and the stick is 42' long. It worked fairly well for the medium sized house we are building but I would get a size larger next time. I would not frame without one.
david
6k 42 is either a Lull or Skytrack, neither of which are very stable.. if you got a 8000 pound (the next size) you wouldn't have any more stability.
Gehl and Ingersol Rand are more stable.. with the Ingersol Rand with the low profile foam filled tires is the most stable of any fork lift.
If the forklift has tradional 13:00X24 size tires having them filled with foam will increase it's stability..
Note foam filled not just filled.. calcium cloride filled won't get you any more stability just a tire that when it leaks will need special filling to conform to it's own requirements.
Too often dealers who know no better will simply fill the tire with air and now you have a very unstable piece of equipment..
frenchy , whats you opinion of gradeall (sp). they are pretty common here.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
dovetail.
In their normal habitate they work OK and since some contractors have never used anything but them they are well accepted..
Their weakness is they are poor in heavy mud areas..Here in Minnesota with our heavy clay there are whole months where they need to stay at home.. if you have the older rear steer model it takes a lot of area up and an operator unfamilar with it tends to do a lot of damage with them..
They like to confuse people saying they have zero turn circle but if you look Gehl will actually use less area turning around while Ingersol Rand is so close as to be virtually identical.. The Old Cat Th 63 could even beat those numbers..