I am contemplating changing out to a tankless heater here at home. 2 adults and 3 teens. Could possibly be a dishwasher, washing machine and shower going at one time…. maybe a second shower eventually.
Any thoughts on good brands or sizes or whatever else there is to consider.
Admittedly, I know very little about these other than the concept of endless hot water. Help me out.
Tanks for your input (pun intended)
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
Replies
Only if you tell us what the diamonds on the tape measure are for...;-)
edit - ...Sorry for the wise a** response - I was kinda thinking April fools joke as well... This is what happens when a lurker tries to jump in with the big boys.
Edited 4/3/2009 9:46 am ET by KevinH
Is this an April Fool's joke?
You, if anyone, should know the the topic has been cooked extensively and the search function is your friend.
yes, I know this but am also lazy.besides, I assume things change so this being newer technology I suspect newer developments.And giving my particular circumstances such as family size and usage might have an effect on what I need.so, what do you recommend?
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
With that many adults in the house, I don't think a tankless would be in your best economic interest at this time. When you sell the teens off, that becomes a different story.
I've had two houses now with them, and I can say that sometimes I do save, but not when there are guests or when the rest of the family is not sharing the same degree of efficiency.
If you must, go for the Tagaki T-K3. If offers high efficiency, a wide range of flows, and does the best at low flow rates - where the cutout of hot water becomes most irritating.
I got a chuckle out of this:>>>I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish.plus this:>>>yes, I know this but am also lazy. You're just saving up your energy for your next big accomplishment, right!!!Scott.
Of course... see, there is a method to my madness.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
You are talking about a gas type aren't you?
My supervisor at work bought an electric tankless for two of our shower/restrooms at work. He didn't do any preleminary investigation on the service required to operate it. Big mistake. An electric whole house tankless (Bosch AE125) need two 40A 240V circuites and a minimum 150 amp service panel.
Looks like he has a $500 boat anchor unless he wants me to put in a new transformer for a new panel. All we have is a 125 amp panel with one double pole circuite available. (it is also a 120/208v service, so that decreases the efficency)
Gonna be interesting to see how the resolve this bad decision.
yes, gas here.Tell your boss to get selling that one on eBay so he can get the one he needs.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
The one he needs is a 480v unit that cost $2700.00 plus shipping. The 480v panel is the feed for the existing transformer that supplies the 120/208 panel. We have space in the 480v panel.
He could have ask one of the three electricians that work for him before he ordered the thing, but he didn't. Now we get to watch him squirm a little. ( He was janitor 24 years ago when I started here. Can we say Peter Principle)
Ya got let us bottom dwellers have a little fun too!
Pete ... quit being lazy ... if you came here, quit thinking you will get a quick fix. You want a quick answer ... DON'T do tankless in your situation. Your reason for tankless is what? To save space? (THAT is a reason).
If you think it is to save energy, think again. Your first cost is high, your operating cost is like 99% of what the tank style is. Big woo.
My primary need for the tankless would be to keep enough hot water available for 5 of us to shower in the morning.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
A second tank, on a timer, would be much, much cheeper.
Tank style, then. You use way to much for tankless. Just size it right and pcik a good efficiency. I stand by what I was saying earlier. Not a particularly good application for tankless. Don't get caught up in the hype.
The cheap builder installed an electric 40 gal when this house got thrown together, I would like to say built but...........well you know!
Anyway, I changed that out because we were always running out of hot water. At that time 2 adults, two teenage boys and two early teen kids.
I installed a Bosch AquaStar 125 and its been great (7 years) and the best comment made so far "There's still hot water!"
I understand the running many things at the same time will be a problem but we don't run into that. We still have the old type of shower valve that might be effected by the toilet flush, so you still watch for that. We can run the dish washer and washing machine together but the water flow is a little slower. But the water is hot and it doesn't run out.
Most involve thing was the exhaust pipe. Double walled was fun to work with. Cheaper to run than the electric but a gas storage would be too.
I would do it again.
Pete,
I put in a Takagi tm1 mobius, works great, 3 1/2 years no problems. Things to think about. get a remote temp switch, you can change it to scalding 162 to fill hot water bottles and switch it back to 115 with a button, also allows you to reset it after a power outage. they use a special vent pipe, double walled stainless and its not cheap so if you have a long vent keep that in mind.
The only complaint is the warm up time, 20-40 seconds. we have a fairly long run for the water in the master though. Also, it wont save you much, unless your switching an old elec for gas. probably end up costing you more from all the longer showers.
Pete,
I'm going to qualify this with I don't really know what I'm talking about....
Still with me?
You might look at putting two tankless in series with each other to obtain an adequate flow rate if you're planning on running 2 showers, the washer, and a dishwasher at the same time. We've installed about a dozen or so tankless units in the last few years for clients as part of projects and they all seem to "love" them.
Our plumber has also been talking about a 90% eff. gas tank water heater. From what he has said they will cost about the same to run as a tankless. Something to look into anyway.
Pete, I'm going to qualify this with I don't really know what I'm talking about....Still with me? ****************Still with you? Of course I am. We'd make a great team with neither one of us having a clue... lol
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
>>You might look at putting two tankless in series with each other to obtain an adequate flow rate
Have you all done that ?
I'm like you, I don't have any experience with them. I just read the book on the Bosck electric unit my boss bought. It calls for a maximum inlet water temperature of 86 degrees F.
Anybody use a Rinnai? That's what I'm considering for the garage apartment.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Yes, used those too. They only sell to trained installers, I believe, but they are excellent units. I did not absorb the details but there was a recall on Rinnai something-or-other... might be worth a google.
Andy,
Our plumber uses Rinnai I believe almost exclusively. Our clients have been happy so far. Most people claim they love them.
What I find ironic is the fact most people love them because they never run out during their 1 hour shower all the while claiming how "efficient" they are lol
I found Rinnai's to be heavily marketed thru existing plumbers. I also find that these plumbers have blind eyes to other brands and know nothing about them. Or so they say.
In product comparisons, the Rinnai's don't quite seem to match up to me. As I have mentioned several times, the (Rinnai's) low flow rate limitation is 3/4 gpm, vs (Tagaki's) .4 gpm (while still able to produce hot water), is a more frequent event experience than the number of times one uses multiple showers at the same time. Let alone the subject of energy usage.
I find these plumbers only can determine the size of unit based upon the number of bathrooms in a house. The function or behaviors of the family seem of no concern.
Frankly, I'll call a Rinnai pushing plumber, "uneducated" or perhaps, misleading, in some areas of the product, and thus is more inclined to dump the wrong machine upon someone.
Also as mentioned, I feel the Tagaki is a better unit. However, since we note that Rinnai is leading the marketing push into the professional market, sufficient education for the industry seems to be one sided.
I picked the installer for my Tagaki by contacting the local wholesale distributor (gotten from Tagaki). A contact to him, asking which of his plumber customers moved the most of these units, resulted in a guy a mile away. Thrilled with the resultant installation.
I'm not thrilled with everyday operation. Not because it a Tagaki or any other brand, but because it takes every person in the home to be WILLING and UNDERSTANDING of the manner in which the tankless unit operates.
One must plan when the how water is to be used and organize those functions so they run concurrently, or at least subsequently enuff to keep the unit on without stopping. (Remember, these units have a built-in delay before firing.) Consumers Reports studies of performance were based upon 19 firings of the unit per day. Seriously, count just how many times per day someone in the home uses hot water. Without thinking about it.
If you wanna play the ultra efficiency game with hot water, you'll need to figger ways to keep that firing number down to single digits - and the shortest overall elasped time being on. That's anal engineer type of thinking. Thinking that frequently leads to intra-family disputes or quibbling over being "controlling." I've found sometimes it's better to shut my mouth while watching DW or my Momma wasting hot water. However, training the family to use the shower AFTER (instead of the same time)someone else is done seems more agreeable.
I recommend the buyer be more anal about the brand / usage decision than the operation. An oversized machine will be more costly over the long haul.
Edited 4/2/2009 7:12 pm by peteshlagor
Thanks for the comments about the Rinnais. And what's wrong with one hour showers? <G>Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
I have not personally, Our plumber has in instances where they needed increased flow for mulitple bathrooms. I know in a restaurant they had 4 units to serve the kitchen and a seperate unit for the bathrooms.
CAGIV said:
"You might look at putting two tankless in series with each other to obtain an adequate flow rate"
I didn't respond yesterday b/c I figured someone else would correct this. If you want more flow, you put the heaters in parallel, not series. I know Noritz allows you to link the heaters so that they function as a unit.
We have a Noritz and like it a lot. Mounting it on an outside wall (no expensive vent piping) when we were re-doing the gas line anyway made sense. Still probably won't pay back anytime soon from effiiciency, but we minimized the extra cost, put the heater close to the bathrooms it serves, and saved interior space.
Thanks for responding.
As I said I have not installed a tankless heater yet. Just read the book.
We do have one facility where we have four 100 gal. electric WH and they are installed parallel. We have never run out of hot water there, even with all four shower rooms gettin a lot of use (total of about 20 shower stalls).
Ditto on the Takagi, ours is the TK1S.
Do a search for this topic in Breaktime. If you use a lot of hot water, tankless doesn't buy you much. Yeah ... endless hot water ... at a large installed cost. If you are being sold one on "the big savings" forget it. It's BS. Get a high efficiency tank style and save the money and hassel. Do more research , don't just take my word for it. Tankless doesn't save big energy for a guy with the loads you describe.
People who don't have them hate them and say they are alll stupid.
People who have bought Bosch hate them and say they are all inefficient.
I've not met a person who bought one of the Japanese types who didn't love theirs. I have a Noritz, Pete. The advantages, after 5 years are:
--No maintenance. No annual draining the rascal.
--No pilot lights to go out.
--20 year warranty
--Lower gas bills
--No earthquake retrofit
--Small size, the size of a suitcase
--Individual (yes Individual) maximum hot water temps for any location in the house, e.g., hoter water for you and more tepid water for Granny and the kids. All controlled by remote control on the wall. Very cool.
--Of course, endless hot water.
The point you make that I think is most important is the space savings. I replaced a 50g tank in the laundry room with a tankless in the attic. In older homes the tank is often takes up space you could really use for something else.
Re maintenance, you may find that you need to de-scale your unit someday.
Re efficiency, as far as I'm concerned there is little savings unless you go long periods without using hot water. If you have a weekend cabin a tankless may save some energy because there is no standby loss. I have never read anything that made me believe the burners are more efficient in tankless. If you want real efficiency get a well insulated electric tank like a Marathon.
Now THAT is a solid reason for tankless .... space savings ... IF space is at a premium in your application.
RIGHT ... Tankless burners are not more efficient than conventional tank style counterparts (which you get in say 70%, 80+%, and condensing style 90+%). There is no magic bullet to combustion efficiency in tankless vs. tank style. It takes 'x' amount of energy to heat hot water whether done in a tankless or in a 1,000 gallon water heater.
One of the best reasons.
I replaced two 50 gallon tanks with a small box on the wall. Opens the whole utilty room. I now have room for a cable/data/phone/etc. distribution area, a sink and a urinal where I could never think of doing anything before.
In the other house, it allowed the removal of the entire utility room, being replaced with a new shop and laundry closet.
Space planning and utilization is really where these things can perform - especally on the shaky side.
Take a look at these Pete.
http://www.polariswaterheaters.com/support/manuals/Res35-50.pdf
Not cheap but you can't beat them for efficency and the they have a high recovery rate. The guy that bid a radiant floor heat for me was going to use one for the floor and my domestic supply.