Replies

1. 
   DanH | Jan 26, 2009 03:02am | #1

   1) Yep. And even if the heater doesn't freeze, the pipes will.

   The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
2. 
   ChiefWiggum | Jan 26, 2009 03:44am | #2

   I live in California.  My Takagi is on the outside of my house.   I have the exposed pipes insulated.  I believe the unit has a little internal heater in it for super cold nights.  It has survived the ocasional 20 degree nights. 

1. 
   Clewless1 | Jan 26, 2009 01:43pm | #5

   Just remember ... insulated pipes in themselves will not guarantee the pipe won't freeze. It is a common misconception that if you insulate a pipe exposed to the exterior, that somehow majically it will not freeze. I will take longer to freeze, but it can easily freeze. If during that 'longer' water flows, then you've averted the problem, but if the water is static ... it can easily freeze (e.g. you are gone for the weekend and the temps consistently remain below freezing and there is no thermosyphoning going on).

   Personal opinion: absolutely you can get freezing of the pipes and/or the heater unless the manufacturer has a provision for freeze protection... then it will consume energy to keep it from freezing. That MAY affect the temp of the pipe on either side of the heater, too (depending on the length and orientation of that incoming/outgoing pipe). Check the literature ... check your installed conditions, also. I wouldn't walk away feeling you are OK when you may not be. These things are expensive, it'd be a drag if a unit froze. When in doubt, leave a trickle of hot water on .... : )  just kidding.

1. 
   mrsludge | Jan 26, 2009 07:41pm | #6

   The piping to/from our Noritz, which is mounted outside, is protected both with insulation and with a self-regulating heat tape.  I'm in ATL, so no epic cold weather, but it's survived the several days each year when it gets well below freezing here. I'm lazy, so I plug in the cable when we get our first cold weather, and leave it plugged in until spring.  The alternative would be a cable w/ thermostat; the fear w/ a non regulating cable is that the thermostat breaks and it starts a fire.

   Ted

1. 
   peteshlagor | Jan 26, 2009 08:29pm | #7

   Why in the heck would anyone WANT their water heater outside?  Was the archy or builder that bad that he/she couldn't include a spot for one?

    

1. 
   PedroTheMule | Jan 27, 2009 10:57pm | #8

   Hi Peteshlagor - Why in the heck would anyone WANT their water heater outside?  Was the archy or builder that bad that he/she couldn't include a spot for one?

   Let's see, gas-electricty-water, these things weren't by nature designed to go together, placing a unit that combines these on the other side of a fire resistant wall allows me to sleep at night.

   If I were further north, I'd locate an internal unit within a utility building and run insulated pipe under ground.

   Pedro - a bit safer than most mules my size

2. 
   MHolladay | Jan 27, 2009 11:31pm | #9

   Pedro,
   For energy efficiency, you want your water heater to be located as close as possible to the rooms using the most hot water. Placing the water heater in an outbuilding will carry a significant energy penalty, whether or not the pipes are insulated. And if you install a circulation system to avoid the long wait for hot water, you can watch your dollar bills sprout wings and fly away before your eyes.

3. 
   PedroTheMule | Jan 28, 2009 12:03am | #11

   Hi MHolladay,

   For energy efficiency, you want your water heater to be located as close as possible to the rooms using the most hot water. Placing the water heater in an outbuilding will carry a significant energy penalty, whether or not the pipes are insulated. And if you install a circulation system to avoid the long wait for hot water, you can watch your dollar bills sprout wings and fly away before your eyes.

   He simply asked why to put one outside - my reasoning is safety - as for my personal installation....it's six inches from the shower ( 3 feet from the shower head ), 8 feet from the whirlpool, 18 feet from the master bath sinks - these items represent better than 50% of my hot water useage so I doubt it can be much more efficient, and yes they are all insulated pex within conditioned space....but the heater remains "outside" on the fire resistant wall and insulated.

   Again my response was directly related to "why" would anyone put it outside of the house itself and not make space inside.

   Hope that helps,

   Pedro - a fire safe Mule

4. 
   DanH | Jan 28, 2009 12:59am | #12

   If that's your reasoning you'd better put your clothes dryer outside.
   The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith

5. 
   PedroTheMule | Jan 28, 2009 01:59am | #15

   Hello DanH,<!----><!----><!---->

   If that's your reasoning you'd better put your clothes dryer outside.<!----><!---->

   It is....solar powered unit....extra large capacity.....<!----><!---->

   The inside gas range is surrounded by Concrete countertops, cabinet hidden side panel of 3/4" plywood, backed with 5/8" drywall & layer of sheet metal. Back wall is 5/8" drywall covered entirely with ceramic tile. Top is a custom fabricated range hood with some strange food grade fire system similar to the old halon or some sort of chemical.<!----><!---->

   Crazy? Well, I'm coinsured on my property out in the woods well away from a fire hydrant, for a bit of labor and a little more in materials I have a far safer structure. All wiring is oversized and the roof is metal.<!----><!---->

   <!----><!---->Lot<!---->'s of flammable woodwork inside but the primary fire starter components have added safety.<!----><!---->

   My family's lives and safety are too important to skimp on these extra items. Didn't realize when I built just how inexpensive it is to sprinkle a residence......the next one will be!<!----><!---->

   Pedro - hate getting my fur singed<!----><!---->

   <!----> <!---->

6. 
   peteshlagor | Jan 27, 2009 11:48pm | #10

   They go together nicely in a GSHP.

   And you ain't gonna put THAT outside.

    

7. 
   MadisonRenovations | Jan 28, 2009 01:46am | #13

   >Let's see, gas-electricty-water, these things weren't by nature designed to go together, placing a unit that combines these on the other side of a fire resistant wall allows me to sleep at night.Hmm... I better put my electric-ignition gas stove on wheels so I can put it outside when I make pasta. And I'd better sound the warning that all these electric-start 40-gal. gas water heaters and condensing gas boilers are dangers, too. I guess you don't drive much either.---mike...

8. 
   PedroTheMule | Jan 28, 2009 02:11am | #16

   Good Evening MadisonRenovations,<!----><!----><!---->

   Hmm... I better put my electric-ignition gas stove on wheels so I can put it outside when I make pasta. And I'd better sound the warning that all these electric-start 40-gal. gas water heaters and condensing gas boilers are dangers, too. I guess you don't drive much either.<!----><!---->

   If you need an item - use it - If you're given the option to add a degree of safety for minimal cost - your choice - personally I had a choice of an indoor water heater and an outdoor unit - I chose the outdoor in case something went wrong my family would have additional time to evacuate.<!----><!---->

   Do you wear a seatbelt when you drive? With the reasoning you've provided when given a choice about where someone should put a burning flame; I suspect you drive without a seatbelt and you should since you certainly never expect a catastrophe.<!----><!---->

   Am I paranoid - not in the least - I'm simply still on my honeymoon and want to protect my precious sweetheart the best way I know how......only been 23 years.....maybe after another 100 I'll ease up a bit.....not likely.....<!----><!---->

   Pedro - a Mule looking forward to Feb. 14th<!----><!---->

   <!----> <!---->

9. 
   Ted W. | Jan 28, 2009 01:56am | #14

   If I had a tankless water heater, I would want it located as close as possible to where it's used most. In fact, I might go as far as getting a second one for a second shower. Whatever the case, outside might be the best place for it.

   I don't see it as a safety issue any more than an oven or clothes dryer.~ Ted W ~

   Cheap Tools - BuildersTools.netSee my work - TedsCarpentry.com

10. 
    madmadscientist | Jan 28, 2009 02:42am | #17

    Actually the best reason to put one outside is venting.

    If its outside you don't gotta worry about expensive double wall vent systems ie $50 bucks for a 10" extension??? Wow..

    Daniel Neumansky

    Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

    Oakland CA 

    Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

3. 
   PedroTheMule | Jan 26, 2009 03:59am | #3

   I'm in central NC....a little colder than your local.....got down to low teens and one night to 10 degrees last week.....unit is outside wall mounted on the north side....insulated PEX....unit has a little heat strip inside of it.....took a hot shower this morning so I'd say no problems here.......

   Pedro a wet mule

4. 
   Ray | Jan 26, 2009 08:45am | #4

   My Rinnai handled temps in the teens with no problem.  I insulated the exposed plumbing.  The installers recommended a surge protector to protect the electronics.  I found a "Laptop computer surge protector" for a couple bucks & installed that.  1 year so far with no problems.

   If you leave water tunning to prevent freeze-up, just turn the thermostat off.

5. 
   KHWillets | Jan 28, 2009 10:26am | #18

   I was looking at tankless water heaters the other day, and I noticed there is a "freeze protection" feature to look for, and some units mention outside installation.

   There are some comical reviews on Lowe's website by people who bought non-freeze-protected units and were surprised that they leaked.