I am using tapcons to fasten walls plates to a concrete floor.
I am using the correct drill bit for the size tapcon I am using. About 70% of the screws don’t go all the way in. I tried the next sized up bit but then they don’t bite. Using a socket wrench on them I jthey break. Any ideas?
From building boxes and fitting face frames to installing doors and drawers, these techniques could be used for lots of cabinet projects.
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Replies
I never had that problem.
But make sure that you drill them overly deep. You will end up with lots of dust in the bottom if it is a floor hole.
Drill a deeper hole - WAY deeper than it seems like you need.
You probably have dust in the bottom of the hole that's causing them to jam up and break off. You get dust left from the drill bit, as well as what the tapcon is making as you screw it in.
Be sure to drill deep enough, even a little further than neede because the concrete dust settles into the drilled hole.
drill way deeper...
make ure the hole is clean... don't daly or you'll overize the hole...
the screw should only be approx 1" into the CC or a fuzz more... 3/4" isn't quite enough..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
As others have said drill deeper, and vacuum out the hole. Also when I drilled a bunch a while back, I was using 1/4" diameter Tapcons and started with a 3/16" masonry pilot bit. The concrete was very hard and I broke a few of the Tapcons off while tightening them with a socket wrench.
Then, while reading the McFeeley's catalog one day I see where they recommend using a 7/32" bit for extra hard concrete. I got a couple of them and they make the job much easier. There's still plenty of holding power.
The catalog # is CSA-0730 for a 3" bit and CSA-0760 for a 6" bit. Good Luck!
Again, I had the exact same problem for awhile, but drilling deeper does make the difference. Otherwise those suckers will snap right in half when toolin em.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
I also use a Makita battery powered impact drill to screw them down
If yur bit is worn down in diameter just a schosh - it won't let it happen...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
What everybody else said about deeper, and: when driving it in, when you start to feel resistance going up, back off the screw a few turns, then go in again. Sometimes it is just junk piling up in the threads as it is going in, even if the hole is deep enough. Been there many times.
Hope this helps. Rich.
If the hole is deep enough , hammer them in. Their supposed to be turned in, but in very hard concrete the heads might snap. Only hammer them in if you are sure the hole is deep enough. They will hold as good as screwing them down.
Now after saying this I have an alternate way to fasten the plates. I stopped using tapcons 20 years ago. Drill thru the plate and concrete with the same 3/16' bit as for tapcons. Drill 4" or a bit more deep, this measurement is from the top of the plate.
Cut a 4" piece of tie wire,drop it in the hole. Drive a 16d nail in the hole along side the tie wire. You will feel the plate snug up tight to the floor. This works every time, if you had to remove the plate the 2x4 would pull thru the nail, the nail will stay 90% of the time. When you try this you will never buy another tapcon.
The nail wedges against the wire, filling the hole tight.
mike
and then the CC eats the nail and tie wire...
always happens...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"and then the CC eats the nail and tie wire..."What do you mean by that? They rust out or something?
yup... rather quickly too.. fine for temp holding bur not for the long haul...
l also I use 5/32, 3/16 and 7/32" bits to fit the screw to the temperment of the CC... I got a 7/8 Bulldog with a Condrive set up and that's it's sole mission in life - to run Tapcons by the case at times..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
If your using pressure treated lumber, use hot dipped galvanized 16d nails and vinyl coated tie wire. Any masonry supply house carries vinyl coated or stainless steel tie wire. Vinyl coated works best. i do not recall in the original post if PT was being used.
mike
take a look at the connection in a year or so.. still corroded...
Tapcon is still stronger..
is yur method approved by the powers that be...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 4/19/2005 11:17 am ET by IMERC
I had the same problem, 3 were no problem, and I broke 4 off on the last hole. I broke 4 or 5 off trying to get the last one to work. I think I drilled into a stone, and it was too hard for the tapcon to tread into. I just hit it with a hammer, and it holds as well as the others. You could try drilling over a few inches, then you may not hit a stone.
Read the post you replied to, 57142.26 Hot dipped galvanized nails don't rust, vinyl coated wire doesn't either. Keep on using tapcons, I'll do it my way.
mike
Watching guys on commercial sites -- they'll drop a 16 foot 2x4 and drill through it and the concrete all in one swoop and drive 3 16p nails in. Holds every time-- this is sort of a take off of the tie wire and a 16p ail -- to secure plates this is the only way I go -- 2 full inches in he concrete
I have had this happen on very old concrete, with a hole drilled extra-deep, rotary hammer and the right sized bit. I didn't have a source on the weekend open to get a bit bigger by a 16", or 32"... Had to switch to a spike type fastener (Rawl maybe?). Point is, the ancient concrete would not let me drive a 3" Tapcon. I even tried using an old 1/2"vsr corded drill and rubbing a little silicone on the fastener( oh yeah -I used the turkey baster in the drill case to blow dust from the holes first).
Dudley, that's where I learned it, commercial work.They probably are using a larger bit for three 16d nails. I use the same bit as for tapcons and the wire.When I first was shown this method I was a little skeptical, then my boss told me to try and pull the 2x up after fastening. I got the 2x up , but the nails stayed, I pulled an 8'-0" 2x4 right thru the nails with a stripping bar. Been using this method ever since.
mike
is that method approved by the powers that be???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
That was my thought, it may hold like the dickens but where is the engineering data to convince the inspector? FWIW I had to put down a carpet strip on concrete. I drilled a 5/32 with Bosch Bulldog after attempting to drill a 1/8 with a hammer drill ( butter vs rock). I then put two 1" brad nails in the holes and drove the spiral nails that came with the strip. Seemed pretty solid. Was considering using a few pieces of 12 ga copper.
for tilt up concrete buildings forming we used a 1/4 inch hole with a 16 d green sinker and a 16 d duplex in the same hole, to nail form's and plates, you can pull them out with a 3 ' bar and check your holding power instead of guessing if the bit is worn, the wire too small etc...
Most likely the bit your using has worn. It doesn't take many holes before this happens. Particularly in very hard materials like some stone and concrete over 50 years or so old. Replace the bit. Save and mark the worn bit for when you using the same tapcons in very soft materials.
Be sure to drill the holes deeper than they need be. Sometimes helps to blow the dust out. Wear safety glasses. I keep a piece of thin, about 1/8" plastic aquarium tubing handy, it keeps your face, eyes and dignity out of the line of the exhausted dust, but only occasionally does it get used.
Do not reduce the drill bit size until you have tried all other solutions. An oversized hole drastically reduces the holding power. This isn't much an issue where the screws are essentially only in shear as they are for a non-load-bearing bottom plates. This sensitivity to hole size is unique to tapcons. Another reason tapcons are seldom used on critical assemblies.
Using a worn or slightly undersized bit for very soft materials, like soft bricks and old mortar joints, can increase the holding power but this effect is hard to quantify. This, and pushing them in firmly as they are screwed in, can help prevent stripping. Of course anything that soft shouldn't be asked to carry heavy loads.
What everyone else said about the overdrilling, and vacuuming. I also found that when I switched to a rotary hammer instead of the so-called "hammer drill" the job went faster and the bits held up longer. I also discovered that switching to Hilti bits on longer, repetitive holes drove the cost down since they seemed to last longer.
For what it's worth.
Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR Construction
Vancouver, Canada
your screw gun does not have enough azz to torgue the screw
7.2 amp DeWalt. It'll do.
It just is not the thing to drill holes for Topcons - or any other anchor bolt. I use the rotary hammer, and to drive the stuff home, a Milwaulkee 14.4 impact driver.
I use the DeWalt for drilling holes in wood and steel.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
What the others say about making the hole deep enough and vacuuming it out is good. There are some other things that I have learned in using Tapon drill bits.
1) I use a variable speed drill. My Milwaukee 7 amp drill works great for this. It has the power and I can control the speed. I have found that going at about half speed works the best. Any slower takes for ever and going to fast takes just as long as going to slow, plus heats up the bit.
2) Be careful not to put to much pressure on the bit. This will cause the bit to warp like a 16' 2x4. This will cause the side of the bit to widen out the hole, you will feel and hear it when it happens. Just back off a little on the pressure and the bit will return to normal, unlike that 2x4.
edited: 3) If you start your hole crooked stay crooked. If you try to straighten it out as you drill all you do is make the hole oblong.
edited: 4) If you pull the screw out to drill the hole deeper what you end up doing is not only making it deeper but also wider. Because you have knocked off the threads that the screw made in the cement. The only thing that the screw gets a hold of is the new part that you drill at the bottom of the hole. The best thing to do is move over a little and drill a new hole.
I hope that this will help you as well as the input from the other guys.
Dane
I will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Edited 4/18/2005 10:41 pm ET by DaneB
Tapcon works but a PITA: slow and expensive. The nail/wire or a two-nail combo in a drilled hole is good, provided you also PL the plate bottom to the concrete slab.
The same two nail combo in a hole provides enough holding power as when laying down a bottom plate prior to forming up a conc wall, if the footing is hard enough.
Pierre, there absolutely no need to use any adhesive with the nail and wire as I described in an earlier post. If you have any question about the holding power try one nail in a scrap 2x4. Try and pull it out with a stripping bar ( 4'-0" long very heavy bar). You might be able to pull the 2x up,probably pull the 2x right thru the nail.
mike
I can't believe no one has mentioned the obvious...
You need to either drill a deeper hole, or blow/vac the debris out of the holes you're drilling.
Thanks for your response. You put everything in perspective that nobody else could!
I can't believe no one has mentioned the obvious...What I can't believe is that you obviously didn't read the whole thread before you piped in..............before you open wider to get a second bite at you size 11's" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Edited 4/19/2005 12:38 am ET by mitremike
mornin' Mike..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Get a sense of humor, will ya?
Of course I read the thread. That's why I started with "I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet...". The irony is that it seemed to me that no one else had!
And they're size 15's.
To those that caught the humor...good on ya.
Size 15?!?Man, did they have to modify the egress system to accomodate those boots?I'm glad I never had to pull you out. <G>Always appreciatin' the humor.DRCSubstitute d*mn every time you're inclined to write very; your editor will
delete it and the writing will be just as it should be. -Mark Twain, author
and humorist (1835-1910)
good on ya.
Thanx.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Mongo,
To the victor goes the spoils---I've been had--and had good.Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
this is yur 1st time ya say..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yeah--for the most part--at least in the hook, line and sinker dept.Ya get the backdoor e-mail?" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
reply on the way
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
coming back to ya---" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
the race is on--which is faster--FHB or e-mail?" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
mail
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
just about everybody did... read the thread..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I believe mongo was being factious with his comment, jokingly making reference to the half dozen or so responders that said the exact same thing consecutively post after post.
be you know a lot of problems with tapcons not seating correctly occur from the lack of depth in the hole as concrete dust will settle in the bottom of the hole which should be blown out first.
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
wow, razz - you caught that
thought maybe it was only me
Did you get Dino's new router attachment that exceeds the capabilities of the old one?
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
no, still have the old one
saw some posts here and thought I should contact him about the new one, just haven't gotten around to it
Have you upgraded?
Well, I ...ah... still haven't even opened it yet.
I want to get the table deal for when I finally setup. Been on a whirlwind and haven't had the time to get into it of late but got to 'cause I need it.
You have the table?
be ashamed
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
Yeah, I got the table - One of the best parts of the system
I got the the complete package all at once when I first bought.
Mongo,Why didn't I think of that!
Jon Blakemore
Hey, Mongo. You said.... "you can't believe no one has mentioned the obvious.."
Huh! Just look at some of the previous posts, and there are 6 or more suggestions to drill deeper.
I haven't read all the replys so sorry if someone else reported this
But for a 2x I use a 2 3/4" tapcon and drill the hole 1" deeper than
than the length of the screw and it works 99% of the time. Will suck
that 2x tight to the floor. I tried the 3" tapcons and I couldn't get
them to work at all having the same problem that you reported.
Hope this helps.
believe it or not, there are 2 types of bits for tapcons. one is meant for block or brick and the other is for concrete.. primarily precast ! if you have a tool with a SDS chuck , the bits available are stamped with a B or C pick the right one and your problem should go away ....... of course don't forget to clean out the dust, there, I said it too.
You aren't using 3/16" Tapcons, are you? I find that they snap way more aften than the 1/4" and larger Tapcons so I quit using them, and the larger drill bits last longer as well. Ditto on what everyone else said.
Billy
You are right on about the 3/16 snaping. I also only use 1/4" now. Drill hole with 3/16 bit in the rotary hammer through the plate and into the floor, drive a 1/4 x 2 3/4 tapcon in with the impact driver and move on. Very effective.
I have used my bosch bulldog with the quick change drill socket driver and never had a problem as long as the drill bit was in good shape. the bosch worked best. i have a millwauke(?) hammer drill and the bulldog is twice as fast drilling.