This is a first for us – using Terne II coated stainless steel to reline a built-in gutter. It’s a little harder to solder, but it expands/contracts less than copper. This is an insurance job. We’re only doing the section damaged by the tree to a good stopping point on either end. Compatibility issues with the existing liner was the impetus for using the TCS. Here’s how it all starts: Dale and Adam set up and strip out the old liner. Then they rebuild/regrade the gutter box as necessary. This is a “V” bottomed gutter. The majority of the built-in gutters around here are flat bottomed. After the carpentry is redone, they give me a cut sheet to fabricate from. Here it is:
May look like a bunch of scribling, but that tells me volumes.
I start fabrication by doting the metal with a spring loaded punch ( shown on the clipboard) with the measurements from the cut sheet. When the metal is doted, I can see the marks from either side when I flip the metal in the brake to bend the opposite direction.
Next step is to bend the blank. 1st bend is a cleat at the top to fasten the pan to the roof under the roofing material.
Pretty simple operation, but I’ve illustrated it for anyone who’s never seen a floor brake in action.
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OK - here's the second bend which creates the bottom of the gutter:
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Then the next bend creates the top front edge. This needs to be lower than the back edge in case the gutter clogs. The the water runs over the front rather than back in the structure. I had to flip the metal for this bend. The final bend where the pans hook over the drip edge will be done in the field. This gives us a last chance to correct any irregularities.
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Here's the package for this job ready to go:
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Here's a shot of a finished section. The shingles are special order to match, so we probably won't actually finish this for a month or two.
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Our work runs into the turret. We'll likely redo the turret gutter as well. It's leaking badly, but it's just worn out, not storm damaged.
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Another finished section:
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Test fit. In this pic you can see how the back of the gutter is fastened so it can move if it needs to when it heats up or cools down. You can also see how the front is rolled over the drip edge to lock them together so they can also move. There are no fasteners thru the gutter pans.
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More of the same with Adam & Dale:
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One of the outlets:
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And a joint in progress. Because of the terne coating, it's not necessary to pre-tin the joints before locking them.
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Thanks for sharing I really enjoy seeing things like that that I never get to experince. that whole gutter system looks pretty neat- Do you think the design of it works well, or is mostly for looks first?
Do you think the design of it works well, or is mostly for looks first?
A "V" bottom gutter works better than a flat bottom (the water moves thru it quicker) and they're easier to line (less bends and less metal), but the carpentry is harder. As the bottom drops, all the angles change.
On a flat bottom gutter, the angles stay the same.
Edited 8/16/2008 1:08 pm ET by seeyou
Trying to get my logo backin order.View Image
Grant,
Looking good. How do you bond onto the older metal ?
Walter
I love good metal work.
Have repaired a church steeple one time, and swore I would never do another. I relly apreciate good metal work, as I have an idea in how long it took you to get to this point!!!!!!!!!!
I relly apreciate good metal work, as I have an idea in how long it took you to get to this point!!
Thanks - but we're a well oiled machine. 5 days for 2 men setting up scaffold, tearing out, rebuilding the trough, laying and soldering the metal on 160' of gutter. I had about 2 1/2 days procuring the metal, fabricating, hauling materials to them (this was in the next town over) and hauling off trash.
Edited 8/16/2008 1:04 pm ET by seeyou
How do you bond onto the older metal ?
Using this metal we could solder old to new. But, the rest of the gutter is not long for this world, so we went a couple of feet past where we normally would have stopped and riveted old to new.
Then we caulked it with Geocel 2300 and painted 2315 over the joint. When the rest is replaced, the sealant can be cut off and a new joint added to continue.
I don't like doing his type work piecemeal, but we replaced about 160' and went less than half way around the house.
Edited 8/16/2008 1:04 pm ET by seeyou
Is the gatoraid a new type of soldeering flux?.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
No. But when life gives us gators, we make gatoraid.
No adult beverage holder on the brake?It's not too late, it's never too late.
No adult beverage holder on the brake?
I've got an adult beverage holder hat for those projects that require both hands to be used at the same time. And DW gets really turned on when she sees me wearing it. Win/Win.
Edited 8/16/2008 1:28 pm ET by seeyou
Or keyboard and mouse ?
Hey - I was avoiding doing paperwork this morning. This afternoon I'm avoiding bending some pediment roofs. I plan to spend tomorrow doing the same.View Image
I just got back from Portland to PU DW who just returned from Cambodia by way of Singapore , Frankfurt , New York.
She was only 12 hours late and arrived two hours by car further away - but thats flying in this new age.
I forgot about that - how was her trip?View Image
I'll post some of her pictures in a thread this week -- I'll stop the hijack now.
She had a wonderful yet moving experience.
Looking forward to it.View Image
Grant what type solder do you use to solder stainless? looks good
We used 50/50 lead/tin which is what I use on regular stainless as well as copper. Instructions say to use pure tin solder, but I suspect that is a health precaution since terne was orginally a lead/tin alloy. They substituted zinc for lead about 15 years ago to head off potential lawsuits arising from potential lead exposure. View Image
Grant,
Does it require more heat -- the stainless I mean to get it so solder will flow properly ?
Does it require more heat -- the stainless I mean
No sir. Much less actually. It doesn't conduct as well as copper, so the heat stays put better. Similar to soldering galvanized. It's also thinner than 16 oz copper, so that reduces the mass to be heated.View Image
Than other than cutting harder it works well from the installers POV ?
Than other than cutting harder it works well from the installers POV ?
Yeah. Dale called me when he started soldering it because he wasn't happy with his results. Took me about half an hour to get there and by the time I arrived, he'd turned the gas WAY down and was wearing it out. He was burning his flux off too quickly intially. Dale liked it fine once he went around the learning curve. It's around 10%-15% cheaper than copper and should have a similar lifespan.
As far as the cutting, I had to put my full 240# on the pedal to get the shear thru it. I just push with one leg for 16 oz cu.View Image
Do you guys use fluid or paste flux ?
I like the paste better myself - more body to keep things lubed.
Do you guys use fluid or paste flux ?
Both. I typically use paste in the shop, but I have to keep a container of Ruby Fluid open to dip my copper in. The paste fluxes I've tried won't clean the soldering copper (iron). The paste isn't as stinky (toxic) for inside work.
I hand Dale the paste on many jobs and he brings it back to me unopened. His thinking is if he's got to deal with a container of liquid flux on the roof anyway and it'll work for everything, the paste is just one more container to pack up and down and keep from spilling while you work.
You know of any pastes that you can tin your copper with?View Image
Not as well as the liquids , but I typically use the paste so I tin with it too.
What brand do you use? I can't tin with what I use. And does it put off lots of stink?View Image
The brand name is La Co if i remember correctly.
The guy that owns Vulcan supply turned me on to it about 10 years ago when I helped him on a job in Troy, Ohio on the Miami County Courthouse.
He was a far better copperman so I took to using it too.
Check out his stuff sometime - finials and all kinds of copper arch. pieces.
Yes it blows smoke if you get too much on.
I'll have to try ruby fluid for tinning though.
Taramet Sterling Premium is what I use. Won't tin, but fluxes great and doesn't put off much fumes.
Ruby Fluid puts off really toxic fumes, but tins better than anything I've used. View Image
If I am not mistaken there are paste with fine solder particles in them. All you have to do is heat them up.Have you heard of such?I think that they might be for electronics or industrial work.I know that there are all kinds of preforms available..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Some flux used to have lead in it, so it kind of started soldering as soon as heat was applied. The flux I just mentioned to Walter has a big "NO LEAD" sticker on it.
They make some flux with tin in it, but it's probably not appropriate for my uses.View Image
Some guy was posting on JLC about Genie man lifts. I can't recall specifics(beer), but I think you might have the one he's asking about.
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43969It's not too late, it's never too late.