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Tear down or fix up?

JimR1998 | Posted in General Discussion on March 21, 2008 08:07am

We recently purchased a house and on the property is a block outbuilding that’s fallen into disrepair over the past 20 years. It was originally a living space and my intention was to restore it as an office or detached in-law suite.

The size is roughly 24×32. The block walls are strong, slab floor and stone foundation are in decent shape. The roof is leaking buckets and needs to be entirely replaced– basically we’re starting with a block shell that needs to be entirely gutted and finished from scratch: insulation, different window/door openings, wiring, plumbing, siding, re-grading the site, etc… I’m thinking $60K _minimum_ to do the rough work and make it look nice from the outside. Configuring the interior would be more, but we could take our time with that.

Zoning considerations aside, is this place worth fixing up or is it better to demolish and start from scratch? Ideally I’d like to reposition it on the property and start out with a workshop and garage that I could convert into an office or in-law suite down the road. We don’t have an immediate need except we don’t want it to be an eyesore.

Have a look– what would you do? Are these “bones” worth making improvements to?

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Replies

  1. andyfew322 | Mar 21, 2008 08:12am | #1

    I'd be tempted to keep it, but seeing that you want to move it and do all that work, it may be better for a teardown

     

    can you hold the laser level while I shave?

  2. User avater
    Matt | Mar 21, 2008 11:55am | #2

    If it really isn't in the right spot it needs to be demo'ed.  If you can use it where it is, that's another discussion, but still very questionable. 

    I built a neighborhood on a piece of land that had 4 or 5 such structures on it.  When I saw your description, as confirmed by the pic my first thoughts were "cold, dark, and damp."   (even without the leaky roof)   Of course the cold (cool) thing is good during hot weather.

  3. jjwalters | Mar 21, 2008 03:24pm | #3

    I'd be tempted (if the foundation was good etc.) to put in larger windows . . .apply a heavy off white stucco to the exterior . . . repair the ply where needed, extend the overhangs and apply metal roofing.

    Inside I would create the post and beam look using white pine......stucco between the posts, leaving an open floor plan save the bathroom etc.

    I could turn that place into a beautiful office/library for 60K

    1. User avater
      MarkH | Mar 21, 2008 04:38pm | #4

      New roof, and you have a good workshop for a little money.  But if it's where you want something else,  no big loss.

  4. CAGIV | Mar 21, 2008 04:43pm | #5

    I would say tear the roof and put a new roof on if the walls and foundation are in good shape.

    My gut tells me 60k to refurbish that would be high if you are providing the work yourself at cost.  If you are going to hire someone you could even be low.

    Not sure where you are located.  Around here I could purchase a 30x60 metal building complete with slab for around 30-40k depending on how nice I wanted it to look on the outside.  A lot of them I see are fairly attractive. 

    On top of that would be the cost of insulation, electric, plumbing if desired etc.

    Team Logo

  5. USAnigel | Mar 21, 2008 04:51pm | #6

    Fix it up if your going to gut it.

    New roof, some regrading to get the water away from the door. Some new windows.

    Or demo permit, zoning permit, new code this and that, does it have some history to worry about, will you be allow to build in the same place again?

    I bet you could do the basics for $10,000 or less for your workshop at least.

    1. User avater
      Matt | Mar 21, 2008 08:28pm | #11

      JJ, Cag, Nigel, Mark, etc:  A lot of you all are saying fix it but you didn't address his comment about wanting to move the building...

      Do you all feel that moving a somewhat dilapidated slab/block structure is feasible? 

      1. wallyo | Mar 21, 2008 08:37pm | #12

        Matt it is up to jim to answer but he uses the term reposition not move so I am thinking he is talking total tear down. Don't think it can be move easy. There are ways to move block but in this case not worth it.Wallyo

      2. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Mar 21, 2008 09:04pm | #13

        Do you all feel that moving a somewhat dilapidated slab/block structure is feasible? 

        Sure!  You move it into a line of tandem axle dump trucks with a big track loader.  It'd take a couple of hours or twenty minutes if you're Frenchy. ;-) 

        1. hartlandboy | Mar 21, 2008 09:41pm | #15

          Don't do a thing.      Move the inlaws right in.      I'd change the lite fixture tho.

          (kidding)   I would save it as most have stated.  Doesn't make sense to tear down and dig up a relatively sound building.  I suppose if you've got money to burn then knock yourself out.  Wouldn't be my choice.  The money that would have to be spent on a demo could be well used to set up a really nice office or suite.

          Gary

      3. CAGIV | Mar 21, 2008 09:24pm | #14

        I've seen much larger brick buildings moved so I guess it would be possible.

        Given the cost of reconstruction out of block, ICF, or poured walls, etc I'd probably bull doze it rather then go through the hassle for such a simple structure.

         

      4. JimR1998 | Mar 21, 2008 10:05pm | #17

        I should clarify... My main issue is not with it's location but more-so it's elevation. I’d like it to be several feet higher and have the ground slope away from it. The natural slope of the land flows right into the door, and the side with the two windows is 3 feet lower than the driveway (which is only 20ft away). The opposite sides (not pictured) are higher off the ground. I’ve never been good at visualizing what a good grading job can do, but I guess it can be addressed.Grading aside, I know it could be an awesome workshop. And I could do that in phases and not break the bank. But I keep thinking about it being a living space… how much of an issue is the slab and stone foundation? It’s solid but I really picture it being cold and damp like an old basement. Then I worry about disturbing things by running new pipes and having a slab that forever cracks (so far so good).Before spending money fixing it up, what kind of contractor should I call to make an assessment of the foundation and walls? I think it’s solid and a few contractors said that off-the-cuff, but I don’t want to put a new roof on only to find out that's not the case.I’d much rather save it if the bones were good.

        1. User avater
          Matt | Mar 21, 2008 11:39pm | #19

          Oh - OK - I gotacha - yes I noticed how low it was.  Even though I think the slab houses we (I) build these days kind of suck - they are much higher than what was in that pic.

           

        2. dovetail97128 | Mar 21, 2008 11:46pm | #20

          Grade is an issue but not insurmountable. My first thought is since the roof is a goner then add height to the walls, new roof, raise the door way and put a wood floor inside that is insulated maybe even hydronic heat. Even a couple of ft. in height fixes most of the grading problems or at least gets you high enough to deal with them better.
          They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

        3. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Mar 22, 2008 12:27am | #21

          Jim,

          You've mentioned a stone foundation a couple of times.  Do you mean that the slab is resting on that?  I assume the stonework must be visible on the low side of the building.  How about posting a few photos tomorrow?  That may be a deal breaker.

  6. wallyo | Mar 21, 2008 06:59pm | #7

    As said a lot more costs involved in demo moving then keeping it there. It always comes down to location, location and location in real estate, If you do not like the location there is nothing to change that, other wise I see a lot of possibilities. New attic trusses if allowable for a second story or the least storage.

    Wallyo

  7. bowquack | Mar 21, 2008 07:29pm | #8

    tear down the house, keep the flowers.  Seriously tho, the others are right.  I would gut it and put a roof on for a shop if you don't have to move it, knock it down and build anew if you do have to move it.

  8. dirtyturk | Mar 21, 2008 08:02pm | #9

    I agree with the others that good walls and foundation make this place any 'easy' decision to keep it and refurbish it.

    If you really want to have a building at another location on the property then 'USAnigel' hit on something that I've had to deal with in the past, similar circumstances.

    In this neck of the woods since it is an existing building you can fix/repair it without too much trouble from a building department. Plans, permits and have at it. It's grandfathered in, no problem.

    Should you chose to demo the place and build new then you may have other things to worry about. Most municipalities do not allow for more than one occupiable building on the same lot (zoning restrictions). A detached garage doesn't count. If you already have a detached then you may not be allowed to build another structure on your property if you tear down this one(don't you love how they can tell you this....not!). Again, you're grandfathered in so the existing can stay.

    An off the record conversation with your local zoning people would answer this.

    Hope it works out! That could be a fine shop.

    ciao, ted

     

  9. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Mar 21, 2008 08:14pm | #10

    If you can live with it in it's current position, I'd save it.  It's approved as a living space; has plumbing, good floor and walls.  What's not to like? 

    As Wally noted, you could even add a second floor...perhaps have your shop downstairs with an office or apartment upstairs.  There are lots of ways to use a well proportioned space like that. 

    Your $60K budget would take you a long ways.  Finished shop, easily. 

    BTW, it helps us to give more complete answers if you fill out your profile. 

  10. hasbeen | Mar 21, 2008 09:55pm | #16

    I'd fix it.

    From the financial point of view, a basic rule is to not tear down an asset. If you have a mortgage, your loan may have been made partly based on a value put on the structure by an appraiser.

    I'd suggest that you insulate the outside with foam and then stucco it. If you do that and then don't insulate inside the block, you'll have a very comfortable space. I'd also add some south windows, if possible.

    The door looks low compared to the lawn. Is there a drainage problem?

    "Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."

    ~ Voltaire

    1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Mar 22, 2008 12:34am | #22

      I'd suggest that you insulate the outside with foam and then stucco it.

      Do you have a system/product in mind?  How's about a link?

      1. hasbeen | Mar 22, 2008 04:51pm | #28

        I've seen it done in several ways.I'd use 2" rigid closed-cell foam, attach it with tapcons and washers, don't get carried away with the tapcons because they are an unwanted thermal bridge from outside to in. I'd probably use wood at the corners so that the stucco netting has a solid anchor to be stretched to. There are, or at least used to be, foam products with keyways molded in to help hold the stucco, but I don't think they are necessary.On the inside you could just parge with mortar or structo-lite.Perhaps someone who knows more about the application of stucco will come along with other suggestions.Have fun with your project!

        "Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."

        ~ Voltaire

  11. frenchy | Mar 21, 2008 10:11pm | #18

    Jim

      Short answer..  tear down!

      Wrong location? cement block with no insulation?  you aren't saving much.. I think you could do a 2 story unit about that size for $60,000 worth of materials and a few part time hours of help..

    1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Mar 22, 2008 12:41am | #24

      "I think you could do a 2 story unit about that size for $60,000 worth of materials and a few part time hours of help.."     Frenchy 

      Jim,

      Frenchy is "between engagements" at the moment.  Sounds like he's ready to volunteer the "few hours of help" you might need. 

      Whaddayasay?  Free room and board with unlimited Internet privedges?   

  12. wallyo | Mar 22, 2008 12:36am | #23

    JIM

    Just curious what was the building first used as? it look like it may be plumbed due to the roof vent. Was it the first house on the property or if a farm at one time a workers cottage?

    Wallyo

    1. JimR1998 | Mar 22, 2008 02:31am | #26

      It was the original house on the property back in the 1940's before the main house was built. I believe the neighbors lived there in the 1970's while their house was being built. After that it was converted to a stable for ponys, and for the past 20+ years it's been neglected.We have a few big projects lined up over the next 2 years, that building being one of them. We have a 250ft driveway that needs to be dug up and repaved (estimates around $15-20K), a pump station and sewer hookup when we abandon septic ($20K), and then this building. They are related in that this building comes up as a big IF as soon we start talking about those things.Run new utilities under the driveway, how to extend driveway? Connect building into the pumping station, which has impact on cost and location. Etc... So we need to make a decision soon on what to do.Here are some more pictures for your viewing enjoyment. We still have a lot of junk to remove. Keeping mud out is a never ending job.Thanks everyone for your advice.

      1. wallyo | Mar 22, 2008 02:52am | #27

        Jim Tough call the inside is bad not good bad but bad bad. Funny thing is the mason work looks in pretty good shape I see no cracks, kind of funny a rental I manage has a two car garage looks a lot like it built 1948, it has cracks in joints and blocks from ground to roof in a couple of places. I still see potential if more height is needed tear off the roof another row of block and you added 8 inches, tubing gypcrete and heat, attic rafters second floor, Patio in front with retaining wall. Hang around we're great at spending your money.Wally

  13. hammer | Mar 22, 2008 01:18am | #25

    Considering all the negatives. Wrong location, wrong elevation, bad roof, questionable structure of the walls and floor, needs gutting.. I would opt for a demo.

    I think you are throwing good money after bad. Although that is only my opinion.

    One thought about keeping it. If you graded flat around the structure and built a retaining wall around it. Mostly side and front. This would block the view of it from the rest of the property which would be an improvement. Then only the new roof would be most visable. An attic truss would work for a second floor finished area, Leave the main floor for unfinished rough storage. The top of the terrace could have a stair case to this attic space.

  14. User avater
    Dreamcatcher | Mar 22, 2008 06:02pm | #29

    Jim,

    I don't really understand why you are asking us this question. It sounds as if you already had your mind made up. I also don't understand where you get your $60K price from. I assume you would be doing the work yourself. Do you even HAVE $60K on hand?

    Assuming you are doing the work, heres a breakdown...it would cost you about $5500 to turn it into a workshop. It would cost you about $15,000 to make the space livable. It could cost anywhere from $60K to $1M to make it very nice. It would cost you about $15,001 to tear it down and rebuild in wood on the same slab. Then again for about $60K you could tear it down completely and start fresh anywhere you like, constructing a nice 800sqft. living space.

    So, give or take, your range of cost as far as I see is between $5500 and $1 million. How much money do you have, on hand, right now? Answer that truthfully and it will become very clear what to do.

    BTW: I didn't see anyone else mention it but you may have to have to tearout and replace at least one window to be an egress window if you are to create a bedroom...unless it is a one room living space, thereby making the door egress.

    I realize you won't like my responce, but at least it is truthful and the same I would give to any of my prospective clients or best friends. Good luck.

    gk

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