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Techniques for Brick and Cedar Siding

WebLawMan | Posted in Construction Techniques on July 18, 2007 08:57am

When we had our new garage addition built, the exterior had brick extending from the ground up to about five feet and then cedar shakes from there to the gable. The brick mason installed the top course of brick to be horizontal with the ground, but the sills of the windows on my house have the sill course of brick sloped away from the window. The siding man was not particularly experienced and he installed the first course of cedar siding abutting the brick without a kick out, so that it is flat against the side of the garage. The installed trimmed the course of cedar where it meets the brick with a long strip of 1x cedar trim.

My questions are these:
(1) What is the standard for the upper course of brick? My feeling is that sloping the upper course away from the structure will route water away from the wall, resulting in less strain on the other weatherproofing that may be present (flashing, caulking, whatever).
(2) Is there any way to get a slope on the brick, other than ripping out that final course and rebricking it with a slope?
(3) It seems to me that the cedar trim will catch water and eventually rot out or else let water go down between the brick and the exterior siding under the brick/shingles. Is this a valid concern?
(4) I could caulk the junction between the lower course of cedar shakes and the upper course of brick, but experience shows that this creates a mess on the brick and is not very effective either. So what should I do to prevent future problems?

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Replies

  1. YesMaam27577 | Jul 18, 2007 11:17pm | #1

    You need a water table as the "first course" of the siding. It can be cedar, or Azek, or just about anything else.

    But it needs to be shaped so that it catches the water from the bottom course of siding, and directs it out past the edge of the brick. (Think triangle.)

     

     

     

    Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

    1. WebLawMan | Jul 19, 2007 05:34pm | #3

      I'm not sure what a water table is. My impression is that, for installing cedar shakes as a siding, you need to kick out the first course by either doubling the shakes along the first course or else installing a 1x2 or something similar along the bare wall with the first course over it (being sure the properly caulk and seal the 1 x 2).Is the water table like flashing extending from the wall to the edge of the brick? If so, then it would run about 5" to 8" out along the brick and would have to extend vertically up the wall under the shakes, much like step flashing.

      1. DanH | Jul 19, 2007 05:53pm | #5

        The water table is like a window sill -- a slightly slanted horizontal piece of wood -- between siding above and some other feature below. On some older homes you see it at the base of the wall, just above the foundation. Or you may see it at the transition between vertical siding and horizontal siding.
        So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

      2. YesMaam27577 | Jul 19, 2007 07:00pm | #7

        Is the water table like flashing extending from the wall to the edge of the brick?

         

        Sortof..... It's a trim piece with a somewhat triangular cross section. The base of the right triangle sits on the brick. The vertical of the right triangle rests against the sheathing/housewrap. And the hypotenuse is where the water from the siding will land (given that gravity still works).

        And so long as the base of the triangle is long enough to go out past the edge of the brick, you'll be fine.

        Note -- don't leave the sharp, exposed edge of the triangle actually sharp -- cut it so that it won't splinter/break.

         

         

         Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

        1. WebLawMan | Jul 19, 2007 07:12pm | #8

          So the cedar shingles would flow away from the garage side, maybe 7"-8" above the brick and swoop away towards the brick edge, a distance of about 5"-6". Interesting. I have seen New England houses with this swoopy kind of thing and wondered about the motivation for doing it, other than for appearance.

          1. YesMaam27577 | Jul 19, 2007 08:11pm | #12

            So the cedar shingles would flow away from the garage side,......

            I'm not sure I know what you meand by "flow". Certainly any water from the face of the shingles will fall onto the sloped surface of the water table trim.

            And note that the water table trim can also be shaped so that it can be the "kicker strip" that holds the bottom edge of the bottom course of siding/shingles out at the bottom, at the  so that the bottom course matches the other courses.

            This is a minor alteration to the triangular cross section --  a ledge in the hypotenuse, near the peak.

             

             

             Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

          2. DanH | Jul 19, 2007 09:47pm | #14

            I think he was confusing the water table with the thing you occasionally see in older homes where a wedge is stuck behind the bottom foot or so of the siding to kick the siding out around whatever's below. Basically makes a "skirt" of the bottom of the siding.
            So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

          3. YesMaam27577 | Jul 19, 2007 09:46pm | #13

            Sorry 'I didn't think to do this earlier. Attached line drawing is a profile of a water table.

            Not the niotch on the underside. It's meant to keep slow-moving water from wicking backwards up to the sheathing.Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

          4. DanH | Jul 19, 2007 09:48pm | #15

            Hmmm... That looks vaguely familiar.
            So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

          5. YesMaam27577 | Jul 19, 2007 11:10pm | #16

            OOps. Sorry for being redundantly repetitive, and for doing something that had already been done.

             

             

             Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

  2. DanH | Jul 18, 2007 11:26pm | #2

    Yeah, either the top course should be slanted outwards, or there should be a piece of flashing lapping over the front edge of the brick. At this stage (assuming you don't want to spend a fortune), I'd go with the flashing. You can spend a smaller fortune and install copper, for what many might consider a nice look, or go with painted metal to match the color of the siding or trim.

    The flashing need only lap over the front of the brick 1/4 inch or so, should be bent to slope about like your window sills, and should run up behind the siding (and any housewrap or tarpaper) at least 4 inches. A bead of caulk or sealant under the front edge (on top of the front edge of the brick) will help a bit with weather sealing but more importantly help secure the flashing against wind and prying fingers. For a more secure scheme you could rip some lumber to the right wedge-shaped profile, glue that to the brick, and glue the flashing to the wedge.

    A gutter outfit will generally be able to supply the pre-painted flashing stock (in an assortment of colors) and bend it for you.

    So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
    1. WebLawMan | Jul 19, 2007 05:38pm | #4

      Thanks. I appreciate the suggestion. I kind of hate to put flashing over the brick but maybe coloring it somehow would mitigate the appearance. Let's see what the wife thinks.

      1. DanH | Jul 19, 2007 06:05pm | #6

        The water table is another alternative, though not as robust. Ideal is a profile with a lip extending up at the back, to go behind the siding, and a relief cut just under the front lip (which should extend past the front of the brick by an inch or so).

        View Image
        So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

        1. WebLawMan | Jul 19, 2007 07:15pm | #9

          Ah, now I understand it. This is just a window ledge adapted for the brick. I like this, but I think it would be necessary to flash under the ledge to provide a break between the wood and brick to keep water from infiltrating the wood and rotting it.

          1. DanH | Jul 19, 2007 07:16pm | #10

            Or make the piece out of plastic composite.
            So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

          2. WebLawMan | Jul 19, 2007 07:46pm | #11

            I'm old school, so my first thought is wood. But Azek would work very well and be less trouble. Thanks for the info.

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