I’ve been offered a job building 11 removable storm windows for a high-end remodeled old farm house. The homeowner wants to use 5/4 x 2 and 1/4 poplar (just like the screens he has in now) for the frames and horizontal center mullion, with custom made double pane glass. These are 62″ x 32″ windows, and my gut tells me that the frame needs a good mortise and tenon joint on the outside corners.
I’m a trim guy and I was ready to buy a tenoning jig for my table saw and jump all over it until I talked to a friend who used to build furniture. He told me that even the best tenoning jigs are a pain to calibrate so it might not pay to use one for 11 units… not to mention the vibration.
These are going to be some heavy windows, going in every fall and then back out in the spring. I can see biscuits for the center mullion, but not the corners. There’s a good chance I could get access to a nice shop with a couple of unisaws with beisemeyer fences, tenoning jigs, jointer and etc.. But now I wonder if even that would cut it.
Replies
I don't have one, but I have also heard that tennonng jigs can be a pain however with as many frames as you have to do it might be worh borrowing one to try. Once you got it set up you could really fly.
For tables and such, I just usually cut my tennons laying flat on the Tsaw and use an offset guage block to define the length of the tennon. Then make multiple passes through a single saw blade. I ususally undercut them and use a rabbeting plane to trim them for a snug fit. I form the shoulders with a handsaw or chisel.
I have tried using a dado with the workpeice laying flat but that removes alot of material and the resistance often makes for a less than crisp straight cut especially with long work peices.
How do you plan to cut your mortises? Mortising machine. That would help.
I don't have a mortiser so at present I cut the mortises with a plunge router equipped with a PC micro adjusting jig, and a spiral upcut bit- carbide.
Another method would be the tried and true dowel. Also fussy get aligned. Or a loose tennon joint where you would mortise both peices and then insert a loose but snug fitting peice of tennon stock.
You can even buy a jig and tennon stock at various woodworking suppliers. I think it is called the beadlock system. Try http://www.rockler.com. Type beadlock in the search box.
Hope this helps.
Webby
Edited 10/31/2008 5:51 pm ET by webby
Edited 10/31/2008 5:52 pm ET by webby
Edited 10/31/2008 5:57 pm ET by webby
Edited 10/31/2008 5:58 pm ET by webby
Thanks, Webby... I've been looking at that beadlock thing in the new Rockler catalogue, and it looks interesting but kind of iffy for what I need to do. I was figuring on cutting the corner mortises straight thru with the tenoning jig, and using biscuts for the mullions.
You don't need a tenoning jig for only eleven units. Use your saw with a stacked dado cutter, or better yet, a RAS with a dado head for the tenons.
Mortises are even easier. You can cut'em with a router mounted in a table or cobble up your own. I generally hog out the waste on a DP and finish up with the router in a table with a fence. You reverse the stock to center the mortise. Poplar is so easy to work with.
Always cut your mortises first and then cut the tenons to fit.
I can give you more details if you want. Shoot me an email because my Taunton email alerts don't work if you're interested.
Tom, I have a nice SCM which could fill in for a RAS, but I can't quite make out what a DP is... my bad, I guess. I can make basic trim on my router table... round overs and coves, window stop, etc. but I don’t think I can cut a deep enough mortise with it.
Really, he wasn't talking dirty, he just meant Drill Press.Aitchkay
Touche, AitchKay.
DP is drill press. My main router is a DeWalt 2-1/4 HP, and I've cut mortises as deep as 2-3/4". If you're using 5/4 stock, I would assume you're looking for 3/4" tenons. Mark your mortises on your work, chuck up a 5/8" bit in your DP, or a 3/4" if you've got it, and drill out the length and depth you need. Chuck up a 3/4" bit ( or smaller) in your router and use some stock to ROUGHLY center your fence. Put marks or stop blocks so you don't over-run your mortise. Fire it up and pivot the down onto the bit in the center of the mortise, and move it back and forth to clean out the waste. Remove it, and flip it around 180 degrees and do the same. Perfectly centered mortise. One tip, be damn sure that ALL of you stock is the same thickness, with no planer nips in the end. And leave at least 2" extra on the ends that you can trim off later. Make face frames like this all the time. You do want to make the shoulder cuts for the tenons with a good saw blade, and use a dado for the rest.
Haha, I forgot that I have a plywood jig I made. That shows ya how much I used it. It worked okay but longer workpeices are a challenge. A bridle joint would add a little more time, to make with out a mortiser, but it could still be done.
Webby
Edited 11/1/2008 1:09 pm ET by webby
Tom, I don't have a DP but I do have a 2hp router and a router table with a 4 inch high fence. With a little bit of thinking out of the box I've made some nice trim with it. Now I'm thinking I could buy a 1/2 inch up-spiral (to pull the work piece into the table) router bit to do bridle joints. The bit I'm looking at in the Rockler catalog cuts 1 1/4 deep so I would have to be precise about set-up so I can to flip the piece over to finish the job.
As for the tenons, I could cut them flat on a table saw and finish with my planer. It can do rabbets.
You REALLY want to watch spiral bits in a router table. I've had'em grab stock and splinter it real quick. I wouldn't reccomend it. That's why I use only straight bits and hog the waste out with a DP. You can do it with a hand held if you make a jig to straddle the work and use a regular bit to remove the waste. Spirals are all right if you're gonna hold the router. Just like somebody else said, I wouldn't use popular for exterior. Maybe redwood, or Doug Fir.
This is a good excuse to buy a DP, or even a mortiser...
I've got a lovely Delta tenoning jig; had it for about 13 years or so. A joy to work with; solid cast-iron base; good machining; easy and precise adjustments; worth every penny...and it wasn't that expensive, IIRC.
Note this one was made over here; I have no idea if the ones Delta now has made in China measure up to the older ones.
I use the outer blades of my dado head to cut the cheeks of the tenons. Space 'em apart with big 5/8" thrust washers until I get close, then add paper shims until it's perfect. Use the tenoning jig to center everything perfectly.
Set the height of the sawblades to be exactly an eighth higher than the tenon's length, then use a piece of 1/8" hardboard as a shim on the table when clamping the workpiece into the tenoning jig. This avoids any snagging when the workpiece passes over the blade insert if it's not perfectly flush.
Unless you want to buy a set of mortising chisels for you drill press--and the special vice that automatically advances the work after each cut--I'd recommend you cut the mortises with a plunge router equipped with a fence. I use straight bits and take multiple cuts for depth but use the exact diameter bit for the thickness of tenon. Most fidgety part of the whole procedure is centering the bit in the work; once you get that fence locked down in the right place, the rest is just motoring: you can cut from either side of the work pieces so you can rack up two at a time in yer Workmate or whatever....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Thanks to everyone for helping me thrash this thing out. Honorable mention goes to Matthewson, but I like the loose tenon thing and its good to know that tenoning jigs can actually be OK. Anyway I’m hungry and I’m inclined to go with what I’ve got, which is a router table.
I told the homeowner that I could get some 5/4 stock off the shelf and build him a prototype to evaluate feasability, time and cost. If I couldn’t do it he was out some time. If I did it at prohibitive cost, I would sell him the prototype at a reasonable price. Now, since the advent of the big box stores no one has 5/4 on the shelf... but I haven’t looked everywhere yet.
As for poplar in the weather, he has poplar screens in now. They are painted and mostly under a good overhang, and they’ve done well. A friend of mine had a lot of big poplars blown down by hurricane Fran in 1996. He used them to build a hexagonal cabin and I built a long deck to connect that cabin to their home about 3 years ago. Granted, a log is not a board... no edge grain is exposed.
Anyway, here’s some pictures I took there back in June.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27301054@N05/2602194522/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27301054@N05/2601368807/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27301054@N05/2602195988/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27301054@N05/2601367419/
Edited 11/3/2008 8:13 pm ET by Huplescat
Webby has the answer for the tenons. Don't buy a jig; just follow webbys instructions. As for the mortises, I bought a jig and it sits on the shelf. Fine Woodworking have had a number of suggestions for home made jigs - - and I do all mine with a plunge router and a 20 minute jig.
A tenoning jig is, for me, a jig placed on a table saw to cut the cheeks of a tenon (one at a time). I have an expensive ($2-300) Delta model that I've only used a few times. I hate it.
These tenons are likely to be short, under an inch long, and would all be the same size (except the center rail), so I would make a simple plywood tenoning jig and a one inch up cut spiral 3/8 router bit.
Alternatively, I've had good luck on a table saw or radial arm saw.
My personal favorite is a radial arm saw.
I have a Leigh FMT, but it is very pricey--does excellent work, just very very pricey.
Regards,
Scooter
"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Cutting tenon cheeks one at a time using a tenon jig is not a verry efficient use of time. I use two identical blades, with appropriate spacers between, and cut both cheeks at the same time. It is important to cut the tenons exactly the right thickness to match the mortises, which I cut with a slot mortiser or a plunge router.
The thickness of the tenon is determined by the spacer(s) between the twin blades. I use mdf, laminate, and finally shims of paper or one of those neat spacer sets used with a stacked dado set.
My tenon jig is shop built, using mdf, aluminum saw-slot extrusions,& high density polyethelene strips for the cross slides. It doesn't have the fancy clamp arrangement of a commercial job but Ive used it for compound angle tenons on the chairs I build.
Now that I have my slot mortiser built, I do mostly loose tenons,as long as I can get the pieces jigged up to put the mortises in the right places. That isn't necessarily historically correct, but a lot faster & just as strong.
Paul
Loose tenons work well for me in that kind of situation.
If you have a 1/2" plunge router with edge guide it's a very simple exercise to build a fixture that clamps your stock for cutting mortises in both stiles and ends of rails. Tenon stock is easily fabricated.
Popluar is not the best selection for exterior applications, D select pine or mahogany would be the way to go. Dowel jigs are fairly inexpencive, or a Kreg jig for pocket screws.
Most of these are made with bridle-joints, not mortise & tennon. Popular would not be my 1st choice, try VG fir.
I use a bandsaw & mortising machine. For 11 you could just hand cut & use a chisel for removing the waste.
mathewson... can you give more info on the bridle joint. The joinery on the screens is impeccable but at this point the whole thing is pretty much academic because I think now I'll just try to find the guy a good shop reference, but I'd still like to know.
I'm on the west coast so there might be a regional difference but all the older homes I've worked on had bridle joints for the windows & shutters.A bridle joint is similar to a mortise & tennon joint only it is open on the ends. It is marked out in a similar manner, but since the end is open all the cuts can be made with a bandsaw & a stop block. Just remember to cut to the waste side & not cut them all with the same set-up or they will be loose by the thickness of the bandsaw blade. The waste on the female side of the joint can be removed with a mortising machine, a coping saw & chisel or just with a chisel. The cheeks on the male side can be removed with a tablesaw or handsaw.Some of the early ones were also pegged but I haven't seen any around here.
Thanks mathewson, a bridle joint was exactly what I had in mind, but I didn't know what to call it.
Here is a few pics illustrate the process. It is straight foward, I'll sure you can do it.
My old storms were put together with dowels. Strong joint ,and way faster.
What about using a raised panel bit set like they use for cabinet doors?
It also will make a nice profile on the rails and stiles. These bits makes the tendon ends of the rails which fit nicely in the stiles.
Just my two cents......
I have a three bit set and saves time on set up. You just won't have to use the raised panel bit in the set.
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.”
Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.
-Truman Capote
Edited 11/1/2008 2:36 pm ET by jarhead2
First off do not use poplar. It is unstable and will rot. You might consider getting the Domino. It is perfect for this sort of job and has a lot of other uses, also portable. A bit pricey but if you think you will ever do other jobs requiring this kind of joinery it would be a good investment.
http://www.festoolusa.com/products/domino-joining-system/domino-df-500-joining-system-574258.html
I have a shop fox tenon jig and I like it.
It it easy to set up and adjust.
it makes it so the Mortises are the hard part!!!
but you can use it to make an open mortise and tenon or tongue and fork joint, which is plenty strong for storm windows.
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
Elitist. Probably put it on yer Gold Series Powermatic....
Matching mortises with loose tenons are a definite step up from biscuits and much easier than intregal tenons. If the mortises are longer than then tenons width you still have adjustment like with a biscuit slot.
A plunge router with a U-shaped plywood jig like in Tage's in Finewoodworking make short work of mutiple mortises.
This past summer I used Black and Deckers cheap 1/4" plunge router with an upspiral 1/4" bit and made up two screen doors, similar application.
I'm with you all the way, MNrosewood.Purists sometimes turn up their noses at loose tenons, because integral tenons don't have that extra glue joint.But integral tenons are MUCH harder to cut accurately, and each tenon has to be cut individually.Loose tenons are made all at once, or purchased ready-made, off-the-shelf, at the lumberyard. I have found that the rectangular molding stock that I buy -- milled and sold as screen stock, etc, as opposed to 1x2, etc. -- is consistent enough to use for loose tenons, as long as the stock thickness (1/2", 3/4", etc.) works for your design. But it's easier in some ways to mortise a bit small, and creep up on tenon fit with a planer or thickness sander.Once you've got your settings, you can make 10' of tenon stock faster than you can cut one tenon.Also, don't chop out the ends of your mortises to square them up, just bullnose your tenon stock on a router table.AitchKay
I would suggest that a bridle joint would be more in keeping with the time period of the house. They do not take that long to make and it appears that the budget is there. I have a Domino which would certainly be faster, but would not use it for this application.
I would use a piece of plywood or MDF and attach it to the fence so that it is tall enough to keep the work vertical. Make sure your blade is very clean and sharp. I also use a zero clearance throat plate.
It looks like everyone here thinks the tenoning jig is a bad idea.
I know you can pick up a nice one at Woodcraft for less than $100. If you can build windows, calibrating the jig should be easily within your capabilities.
just everyone that doesn't know squat:O).
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
I do a lot of cabinetmaking. I use a tenoning jig all the time. Some folks cut tenons by cutting one cheek, flipping the stock, then cutting the other cheek. That *is* a PIA, IMHO.
I use the two outside blades of my dado stack, both mounted on the TS arbor with spacers between them. I have an assortment of spacers made out of plywood, masonite and sheet metal. I have generated a data table specifying which spacers to use to end up with a given thickness of tennon. This way, both cheeks are cut at the same time. I cut the cheeks on the TS with the jig, and then cut the shoulders on the RAS after setting a stop. I only takes me a couple of minutes to set up to cut tenons this way, and once set up, you can cut tenons as fast as it takes to clamp the wood, push it throught the saw, and then trim the shoulders -- less than a minute each. Making the mortises is more problematic than the tenons. You'll either need a mortiser, slot mortiser or use a router table.
If I had 11 units to make (40 joints), that's the way I'd do it, tho' for 2-1/4" joints, you may need to move up to two 10" blades. If you don't wanna spend the hundred bucks or so, these jigs are pretty easy to make out of wood.
That said, there is at least one poster over on Breaktime who uses two small saw blades on the shaper to cut the cheeks. Probably a better solution if you have the equipment.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA