Thanks to all of you who put so much information on this site…
I am a homeowner and remodeling a house with a building contractor…
There are times I can pull my hair out cause the contractor doesn’t understand what I am trying to convey to him that I want in a space… I am not a novice at this since we have moved many times; but it seems that I run into the same problem from LA, TX, OK, MD and PA… whereas the super or builder wants me to make a decision based on words of discriptions of projects… I like to see drawings or actual pictures of products so I know I am communicating with them… even then something gets lost…
Is this just a common thread in the building trade?
Replies
Poor communication happens everywhere with both "sides" making assumptions about the knowledge level of the other - and the crystal clarity of their own descriptions and explanations. - lol
I do quite a bit of cabinetry and furniture and pretty much insist that customers show me pictures of things they like (or dislike) so I can design something to their tastes and not mine.
Since you're writing the checks, it isn't unreasonable to ask for pictures, drawings, etc.
Your plight is not unique.
I am a contractor and sometimes I pull my hair out because the other person listening to me doesn't understand what I'm trying to convey. Sometimes the person is a worker. Sometimes the person is a client. Sometimes the person is a superintendent. Sometimes the person is a.....
it's the nature of the beast. We are creating something from an abstract description.
If you truly want to avoid all this confusion, you should be working closely with an architect first. Every detail of every area should be drawn including renderings. If you don't like what you are seeing on the drawings, you only have to erase lines on a paper.
Be prepared to spend a significant amount of money with the Architect.
Since you are trying to do your remodeling on the cheap, and saving the Architect's fees, how about you trying a little harder to be realistic about how your ideas might be misinterpreted. I think perhaps you should be shopping a little harder for a contractor that communicates more along the wavelengths that you speak.
blue
We did hire an architect and that turned out to be a great mistake... He's known in this area, so we didn't go just to somebody no one knows... We spent Thousands that could have gone into the project.; No, I am not doing this project on the cheap; it's just that the professionals put in their specs. what they see fit, not what the customer requested in my case... Presently I am trying to save this project from anymore waste...
We did it right and it is still wrong! That's what even me getting an interior design education has cost me... Next time some architect tells me I have to pay for their gas to even meet with me, I think I will pass on the architect...
Wow, you start off expressingf gratitude for help and presence, then quickly degenerate to venting...That's OK, We all need to get it off our shoulders.Communication seems sometimes to be a lost art. I know that people all have different methods of geetting ideas across. Some with doing, some with drawing, some with words written or spoken.It is common enoutgh. I usually manage to listen enough to my clients to satisfy them by understanding what they want and giving it too them. But I am sure not perfect. When I appraoch a subject for my wife, she tells me what she wants, then I tell her how I would go abouit it and ask if that would be right. Fine. Then I get 60% finished and she announces "That's not what I wanted at all!" If my clients were the same, I would be bankrupt.;)
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palacial... we are a design /build firm
and we've been doing it for 30 years..
i'm a very good listener and i am good at conveying techniques and methods in word and drawing..
but nothing seems to work the first time thru..
in dealing with customers i outline different possibilities so i can get feedback... then i do some preliminary and make a presentation..
low & behold .... it's not what they wanted... but that's fine with me.. it is part of the process... much easier to find these things out on paper and 3d drawings than it is to do it in 12" = 1 ft. scale ..
i also find that i am really a referee... sailing a course between what the husband wants and what the wife wants.. and trying to make sure that all parties are heard from before it's too late
once we do have the design nailed down..
i still expect changes
as to conveying my design to my carpenters... i often tell them my theory of "A" & "B"...... i will describe what i want done.. even make some sketches.... this is the "A" solution..
i will go away and come back to observe the result... but it won't be "A"...it'll be "B"... a different solution that i hadn't contemplated... it was so obvious to me that we were talking about "A"... i had no idea someone could listen, nod their head, and then produce "B"....
yet it happens all the time
i anticipate it happening with my guys and with my customers.. so i ask a lot of questions to make sure we are all on the same page... and not exisiting in parallel universes
IE: it's the nature of the beast.... so let's be careful out thereMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I'm working on a design now that is for the folks across the street and two down. If I get this one right I will have graduated to the next level. Luckily changes in the planning stage are not very costly. Remembering the changes brought up at each meeting is certainly a "minutes" nightmare. Thus far, I start tearout next week sometime. According to the latest granite supplier, they should be setting granite when I return from the Fest. No doubt in my mind I can produce the product, just unsure of the outcome at this time. I should have enough info from them to order the sink and faucet tomorrow. Hope to have the lighting plan by end of week. End result of this remodel? not quite sure at this time. I think the changes will end after all is ordered. That is to say, all changes WILL end at end of this week.
Considering I'm keeping the majority of cabinets from the 50's, it'll be beautiful thing when finished.
I think.
Communication is an important thing. Decision making should never be slighted. Communication w/o a decision is just bull #### ting.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
i will go away and come back to observe the result... but it won't be "A"...it'll be "B"... a different solution that i hadn't contemplated... it was so obvious to me that we were talking about "A"... i had no idea someone could listen, nod their head, and then produce "B"....
I was glad to read that today. I am not a contractor but a foreman for a large commercial metal stud/ drywall company.
As much as we try to improve technique/ communication etc.. , the above situation keeps popping up. Today was one of those days, but now it is history. Tomorrow we'll try it all again with a smile on our faces. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I hear ya about the wife.
Mine is a wonderful, smart person.
But she has absolutely no ability to visualize anything.
So I have to mock up any project I do around the house.
It's a good thing I love her.
We're lucky to have such lucky wives, eh?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I know she's smart
'cause she picked me to marry
<G>
I can claim membership in this club, too. It is an adventure. I build mock-ups, too - sometimes they help, sometimes they don't.
I may be an atypical "guy" in the fact that I am picky about the fixtures and finishes, too. I remember I asked her to cut out images of things she'd like in our house; and I do the same so we could compare notes. She had 5 pictures of kitchen faucets alone - all distinctly different styles. . . .I had one. I threw mine away and picked one of hers. She saw that I rejected 4 of hers and she said - you don't like anything I like. . . .
Like it was said, she must have some good taste, she did pick me ;-)
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
that the professionals put in their specs. what they see fit, not what the customer requested in my case...
Back to that "communication" thing. You want me to design for you, I am required to consider the "health, safety, and wellfare" of all possible parties, and that is to "the best of my information, knowledge or belief."
Customer wants 2x4 @ 24 OC for floor joists, even out in the docks of boon where no AHJ or Code applies? Well, guess what? Ain't going to happen. Customer wants 2x & the spec gets writtne as TJI, that's different. Customer wants screws instead of sinkers? That starts getting into restraint of trade for the eventual contractor--unless everybody shows good cause. Back to good communication again.
We did it right and it is still wrong! That's what even me getting an interior design education has cost me...
Well, all OTJ education is expensive--only a matter of paying in labor, time, dollars, stress, whatever.
Slightly confusing, though--"interior design" is not always "architecture." The "licensing" of "interior designers" (and the subsequent legal liabilities) can be significantly different than for "architects." (I know some "designers" who ought not be allowed a mechanical pencil, let alone software & business cards . . . know some archies the same way, too).
Next time some architect tells me I have to pay for their gas to even meet with me, I think I will pass on the architect...
Depends. You ask me to come do a site visit, and you are getting billed for it (generally; depends on where in the design process, and what the contract for Service stipulates). If I'm on the road a half-hour, that's a lot of milage, after only a few trips. When I go off to Anderson, a "mere" forty miles--that gets billed for. I don't happen to itemize such bills for mileage--but it's factored in my business accounting at some point.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You think you've got it bad...I talk to myself and more often then not I don't get it either.
Could you provide the pics for the GC or subbies? It would make their life easier if you did. Find cheap software and plan out your ideas, cut pics from mags,sketch up what you 'see' in your mind. As I've often been on the end of mis-directions from the customer, or mis-interpretation by me, it's not an easy path. Clarity is the keyword here.
All the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
THank you and pics are on the table... Drafted drawings by myself were done in this case... 1/4" scale... from now I am using 1/2" scale...
I truly appreciate your input and I am learning from this site... I have always been intimidated to ask these questions in the past, but this site is giving me understanding and insight...
Again Thanks
palacial
There are no dumb Q's, as the saying goes...just dumb A's. Hopefully you won't be faced witht the latter when you talk with your 'subbies'.
edit: you won't go wrong if you ask Q's. It's the assumption that others know what you are talking about. This is a good place to ask Q's...sure you might get some BS - but ask what they are meaning, too.
All the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
Edited 7/18/2006 8:45 pm by piko
Thank you, and I don't mind the BS... it makes me laugh... and during this time in my life I can use all the laughter I can be around...
Mr. Piko, you are a gem! Heck you might be a woman for all I know! Anyway you are a gem!
" I like to see drawings or actual pictures of products so I know I am communicating with them... even then something gets lost...""pics are on the table... Drafted drawings by myself were done in this case... 1/4" scale... from now I am using 1/2" scale..."OK, so you are the chief architect here, but it sounds like you are complaining about the quality of the drawings????????What am I missing?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You are a very funny man... Touche! LOL
I wasn't trying to be funny, but tactfull.Seems that after having similar problems after moving and doing this in several states with several contractors and getting similar results. There could possibly be some lack on your part in the way you are communicating and drawing. you are the only common denominator here that I see.I have a similar problem. my normal guys know what I
m saying on normal things, but any new and unique project, I have to do very detailed drawings or be right tjhere to get what I want.I tend to say words that mean something , assuming that they know what i mean. I'm working on getting them to repeat back to me the essence of the idea as a way of improving my communication skills. For some reason, it seems like I commuunicate better with my customers than with my crews. probably because I have more reason to do the "listening" portion of the communication skill with customers
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I will heed your input!
Thanks
I'd like to see a picture of your drawings. I think this will clear a lot of things up.
Snap a picture of them with a digital camera and post them. Then, snap a picture of your defective work and post them too.
Please.
blue
Thank you so much........ I truly thought from your last message you were just one of them...
The defective work has been changed to look exactly like I drew them. The builder/contractor is truly a gem... his sub is a bit, well let's just say he is not as astute as his boss. (The boss is too busy with other jobs bigger than mine, and mine is a $400,000 one, which is a lot of $$$ to me.) It took 3 weeks but it's done... I wouldn't let them touch anything until they understood and also that they understood I was not paying for them not being able to see it... Believe me, this was a growing experience for me. It's really difficult to work with workmen cause I think I come across as a winer woman to them, and generally I give up and live with results I don't like. But this time, maybe cause I'm older and wiser, and this may be my last project like this I hope I don't give up .
But since you offered, stay tuned, cause if I run into another scenario like this I just may take you up on it!