I’m working with two different contractors getting bids on doing the sheetrocking in my house. Contractor A was recommended to me by a neighbor who is a GC in the city. They’re a hispanic commercial drywaller outfit. The owners English was mediocre, but the questions he asked about the job showed that he really knew his stuff. Unfortunately, he’d be just sending one of his crews, so I’m not sure how much that would convey.
Contractor B I met while bidding out a commercial job for my office (the job ultimately fell through when the economy tanked). He’s an local GC who unfortunately concentrated in the wrong local markets so is now extremely eager for work. He too asked questions that showed he knew his stuff and was looking ahead to possible issues with the job, and too boot, there was no language barrier. He flat out asked me what my other bid was, and matched it. I like him, but he’s a talker, and I sometimes feel that I’m being sold (something that a language barrier prevents (un)fortunately) and the desperation is palpable. He’d be working the job with a couple of his family members.
Contractor B currently has an active civil contract suit against him. In his company’s past there has been civil contract suit which was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction, a tort suit by a utility company dimissed, and a lost civil suit several years back.
Now, my father was a small business owner, and always had something being filed against him, but he was a dentist, and people are especially litigious about their perceived health problems. So I’m not sure how my fathers experience compares.
Does being a GC mean that eventually, no matter what you do to please the customer, someone is going to get pissed off and civil suits are simply the cost of doing business? Should this factor into my judgment as to which to pick? Or is this simply information overload now that a simple search brings up all this past history? And how should B’s dire situation (which I’m sure might be too familiar for some on the board) play into my decision (disregarding price)?
Z <- not meaning to stir the pot, but when all this information is available freely, what is the best way to process it? Is there better context (short of finding the court documents, and talking to both parties) to consider such findings within?
Edited 7/14/2009 4:15 pm ET by mackzully
Replies
If you're in the business long enough, there is bound to be some differences of opinion between the contractor and the customer. The fact that he was sued by a utility company is a bit of a red flag, though. You might want to ask him about that. See if you like his explanation. If your gut tells you something is amiss, stay clear.
No matter who you choose, make sure there is a written/signed contract that lays out the scope of the work in detail. You need to let the contractor know exactly what is expected, so that when the job is complete, there are no surprises. This goes both ways. I have seen a lot of homeowners assuming this/that was included in the estimate, not knowing this would cost extra. "And that's when the fight started."
FWIW-
Between myself and my dad, our business goes back about 50 years. In the nearly 20 years I've been in business, I've never been sued. I think my dad was sued only once.
But we've sued customers several times for non-payment.
No suits here either. Looks like many signs point to "A". When I lived in AZ. all my drywallers, masons, plasters were hispanic. It's the work ethic I'm intersted in not the language. I now employ a deaf person and use sign language. Just like all my subs or employees I make sure they're are insured, carry workman's comp. etc.
Mark
Mexicans hang better rock. I though everyone knew that. Vic
<Mexicans hang better rock>
Whoa - just don't characterize someone as "black" in front of SplinterGroupie!
Forrest - stirring the pot
I doubt my black friends care what splintergroupie thinks. Funny how it's perceived as a compliment to suggest Italians make for great stone masons, but it's a possible slur to suggest Mexicans hang nice drywall. Vic
beautiful post.
Funny how it's perceived as a compliment to suggest Italians make for great stone masons...
Not everyone of Italian descent considers it a compliment. At best, it's neutral, but it also stereotypes.
I've never seen a good mexican drywall crew, they are more suited to be the stonemasons.
The Italians should make lunch.
one of the best drywall hangers I've seen is a short asian guy who wears glasses and works in dockers, a polo shirt and loafers. I kept checking for the tassels to make the package complete. Definitely looked more like a rich fraternity kid than a drywaller. The kid was great. Definitely broke a couple of stereotypes dressed like that, that day. Might not have been his regular work clothes, don't know that crew real well. Maybe he had a court date. Vic
You're focusing on the wrong issues--language barrier or lack thereof, whether the owner works on the job or not, whether one or the other is desperate or not, whether one has been sued or not.
You could get a good job or a bad job by either one. As an owner/builder your ability to manage the work in progress correctly, set up a payment schedule that makes sense, spot problems, and deal with people appropriately is what matters.
What David said and of course; go look at a recently completed project first.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Thank you all for your comments, they are incredibly helpful.A combination of finances and scheduling deadlines is creating a ton of stress for this phase of the job and I was reaching for anything I could to make decision.After thinking about it last night, I ruled out the language barrier as a determining factor, as my electricians and insulators have all been wonderful and done excellent work, and all have been hispanic with limited english. I have no reason to be believe that this wouldn't be the same. I was focusing on the wrong thing.Also, contractor A came on recommendation from a GC friend who uses them himself, and had given them an enthusiastic recommendation. I value his recommendation and opinion more than anything else since there is little better than a good rec from someone skilled and experienced in the trade who you trust.Also, I walked out of the meeting with A feeling immediately comfortable with the purposed work and price. With B, I immediately felt odd about it. So I'm going to trust my gut, and my neighbor, and go with A. I greatly appreciate all the advice!Z
I'd go with "A" as well.
For one thing "A" put forth the effort to develop and provide you a price.
If "B" is going to let someone else price the work for him what other corners will he cut?
Exactly part of my thinking (eventually). If B had been straight up with pricing, this wouldn't have been a problem. Even then, if he was higher, and could explain why or list off options to lower price, I would have been happy to work with him. I would rather hear from a sub "Here is my price. It includes the following..., if that is too much, here's what we can do, A) B) C), if none of those work, then I'm not comfortable with doing the job for less as I won't be able to provide the quality that I would be happy with". That conversation right there would have given his bid *significant* pricing leeway, even if it was 10%, 20%, whatever higher, the honesty and straight forwardness of the transaction would have bought me a piece of mind that could be worth the additional cost. I don't like playing bids off each other, simply because that is a race to the bottom. Nor do I expect to pay bottom dollar for top dollar work, good work for a fair (and upfront) price is all I really want.Z
It seems to me that the only reason there is even a question is that the better bid came from a Hispanic, which incidentally moves it up a notch in my mind. If he didn't speak Spanish, I don't think you would have even given it a second thought. By the way, Bid Shopping will earn you a bad reputation around town, and guarantee that you get the worst job possible. Buena suerte. Ojala que te vaya bien.
I don't care for B's method of determning the cost of the job. Are they both licensed and insured? That would be a factor.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
He flat out asked me what my other bid was, and matched it. I like him, but he's a talker, and I sometimes feel that I'm being sold (something that a language barrier prevents (un)fortunately) and the desperation is palpable. He'd be working the job with a couple of his family members.
This was my bigger red flag than the minor legal issues. He was a 'talker', flat out asked my other bid and matched it, and working with a couple of family members (is that normal for him??).
Talkers ... tend to talk and not show honest effort. If he is matching a bid ... he will be maybe looking to cut corners at some point ... therein will be the rub. Incorporating family members ... unless that is standard for him, he's already cutting corners and there will be quality issues and either friction between him and his family (e.g. disagreements on paying them what they are due) or the resulting friction between you and he.
Legal issues over small stuff? If it is small, why didn't he simply take care of it? If it is big, either he connected himself w/ the wrong client from heck or he didn't do a very good business/job.
You raise at least three issues.
First, regardless of where someone is from, the ability to communicate with them is quite relevant. After all, if they don't understand the language, how can they possibly understand the contract?
Nor is it just the technical abilite to speak a language; I can think of at least one GC who speaks perfect language; he just ignores everything he doesn't like.
The second issue is the matter of price. Generally speaking "how much did the other guys want?" is a quwstion that ought not be either asked - or answered. let him come up with his own price. Or, tell everyone you have $X in the budget. It's simply neither fair, nor ethical, to give one contractor an advantage in bidding.
While legal issues can be most relevant, you really need to take it a step farther, and read the actual proceedings. Some folks seem to be litigation magnets, while others are victims of customers who use lawsuits / complaints as a bargaining tool.
You're right on with your points. I went with A, and when I called B to relay the decision, I got an earful of cussing and "I was going to prime it for free for you even though that wasn't part of the price..." and some more cussing, then he hung up. So I think I made the right choice.Now to get the materials ordered and all the #### outta the house so they've got space to work!Z
"So I think I made the right choice."Gotta agree with you there.TFB (Bill)
Kudos to you for calling B and telling him he didn't get the job. Most times we never here it from the customer unless we specifically call to ask. He could have take the opportunity to find out why he wasn't chosen for the project and learned something about his business - instead he chose to ream you out. Good riddance to him.
-Norm
Not to add more confusion, but whoever you choose . . . it wouldn't be a bad idea to skim the chapters in Myron Ferguson's Drywall book to get an idea of what type and level of finish you want on your drywall so that you can speak intelligently and spec it in the contract.