Various BreakTime threads have made reference to the “Mooney wall”. I’ve seen multiple new users asking “what is a Mooney wall?!” (some of whom have already tried to find it on Google/Yahoo). I figured I might as well start a thread that will be easy to search and find. A thread which would give the full details of the Mooney wall, not just certain elements of it. Even with a couple posts under my belt, I have to admit that I’m not 100% of the composition (hopefully Mike and Tim can straighten me out), but I will give you what I know:
The “Mooney wall” is the The brainchild of Mike Smith and Tim Mooney. The primary purpose of the MW is to upgrade the insulation of a standard 2×4 (on 16″ centers) wall. The MW is well suited to renovation work with superior insulating characteristics to standard 2×4, 2×6, and many variations. In one thread I see Mike estimating the wall at a true R-18 (unlike the artificial R-19 of a 2×6 fiberglass wall, which doesn’t take into account the thermal bridging of the wood).
The Mooney Wall’s thermal bridge is restricted to the points where the 2×2’s (really 1.5″x1.5″) contact the 2×4 wall studs. This is a vast improvement over the nearly 30% thermal bridge of a typical 2×4/2×6 wall.
[edit] The Mooney Wall process (italic excerpts from Mike Smith):
after the stud walls are built, install the 2×2 at 16″ oc horizontal,
the electrician roughs in , the boxes can be mounted on 2×2 blocking…
the insul-mesh is stapled and pulled tight..
White glue is rolled onto the mesh and saturates the mesh / stud interface to prevent cellulose dens-pak from getting under the mesh and causing bubbles over the framing
the next day , the glue is dry and the walls are ready to be blown ,
you blow it right thru the mesh in a hole you make with a utility knife, you can see everything as you progress..
since we do all of our own insulation, this method suits us.. it would be more difficult to coordinate it with subs, but it could be done.. you have to delineate who will do the 2×2 strapping , who will apply the mesh , who will glue the mesh.. and who will blow the cells
Overview:
1. The existing 2×4 wall cavity
2. Horizontal 2×2 (a 2×4 ripped down the middle) @16″
3. Electric rough-ins installed
4. Insul mesh glued to the face of the 2×2 strapping
5. Dense-pack cellulose insulation blown into the cavity created by the 2×4/2×2/mesh
6. Drywall/plaster
———————————————————————————————–
the Mooney wall facilitates installation of electric devices and blocking for assessories ( like curtain rods, grab bars, etc )..
———————————————————————————————–
we use insul mesh , stapled and glued, next day we blow the wall thru the mesh .. just make a small cut every 16″ or so..
you can see exactly what you’re doing…
first couple of time i special ordered it from Regal Industries ( make sure you get insulmesh… you don’t want the 1/4″ open mesh ) now we get it from our insulation supplier .. and we use Elmers White Glue , which we find superior to what we were buying before
———————————————————————————————–
Edited 11/9/2005 10:41 am by JohnT8
Edited 11/9/2005 10:44 am by JohnT8
Edited 4/26/2006 5:03 pm by JohnT8
Replies
tate.... u da flash !
btw... only #1 & #2 are mooney wall ( should we keep it lower case ...or Upper Case ? )
the rest are just various insulation pics
mooney wall developed from a discussion of "energy Wall strategies and menus "
my previous "energy wall " was 2x4 ... with 1" EPS.... then 1x3 furring @ 16" horizontal and blow denspak cells thru the EPS foam
tim and i had some long discussions and compared various costs and benfits..
my decision in the end was to get rid of the EPS and the 1x3 and substitute 2x2 ( which is actually 1.5 x 1.5 ) @ 16" OC horizontal...
that was close to 2 years ago.... since it was tim who persuaded me that i was getting 90% of the benfits with just the 2x2, i decided to name the wall after him
pretty cool , having an energy wall system named after an Arkansas Building Inspector , n'est pas ?
it is a true R-18 with pretty close to zero air passage and a very small thermal break section ( 1.5x1.5 every 16" ) there is lots of blocking for trim and electrical devices.. the electrical boxes are pulled away from the exterior skin so there is at least 2" of denspak cells in back of them.... electrical boxes no longer serve as conduits for drafts...
we really like the mooney wall but there is one caveat.. it is labor intensive, it will probably never be adopted by tract builders
here's the process: after the stud walls are built, install the 2x2 at 16" oc horizontal,
the electrician roughs in , the boxes can be mounted on 2x2 blocking...
the insul-mesh is stapled and pulled tight.. White glue is rolled onto the mesh and saturates the mesh / stud interface to prevent cellulose dens-pak from getting under the mesh and causing bubbles over the framing
the next day , the glue is dry and the walls are ready to be blown , you blow it right thru the mesh in a hole you make with a utility knife, you can see everything as you progress..
since we do all of our own insulation, this method suits us.. it would be more difficult to coordinate it with subs, but it could be done.. you have to delineate who will do the 2x2 strapping , who will apply the mesh , who will glue the mesh.. and who will blow the cells
tate.. this is a good example of our old energy wall... with 1" EPS covering everything and then the 1x3 furring applied...
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 5/16/2006 11:35 am ET by MikeSmith
john... this would be a good example of the blowing pattern in a mooney wall... but it is not a mooney wall... just an old 2x6 wall we blew with denspak cells...
it is obvious where the studs are and they will feel cold to the touch in the middle of winter
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Give me accurate MW pics and I will amend the Flash.
Shoooot, I hadn't realized you'd completely dropped the EPS! I was starting to wonder just how thick that darn wall was getting to:
2x4+2x2+1" eps+2x2+1/2"drywall = around 8". Gonna have to redo the returns on the windows/doors.
Although you darn near got me thinking of keeping the EPS. Expense be danged! "Mooney wall Plus"! As long as the connection isn't weak (2x4/2x2/EPS/2x2/drywall), then expense is the only issue.
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Edited 11/8/2005 7:34 pm by JohnT8
If you were willing to lose 8" of thickness you may as well frame double walls and blow the whole assembly with cells.This configuration would yield appoximately R23 rather than the R20 that the Mooney wall + 1" EPS would achieve.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
tate.... you can also get creative in the traditional cold spots.... like the headers and the corners
kind of like the admonition to flashing installers .... "think like a drop of water"..
with the mooney wall ... " think like a thermal bridge "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
He was talking about 1x3 strapping everything and being the cheap skate I am , I asked him why. He said why and I said that studs are the cheapest lumber in the lumber yard. Our lumber yard at the time sold 4 ft lumber cut from crooked lumber for .25 cents apiece. Ripped in half then a 2x2 even if croked will straighten out where a 2x4 might not . Actually if its crooked it doesnt really matter but if its bowed , you get the point . If lumber is ripped as Mike says by 1.5x1.5 then you have a choice as to the way you want to turn it . That kind of lumber is super cheap if you deal for it which Im sure Mike doesnt but 2x4s are cheaper straight out than a 1x3. You can use past used lumber from the last job or scavngers.
Now what he left out was that with this wall you can put a 2x 6 or 2 x 4 at the ceiling if you want to for big trim and the same for the floor and viola you have solid blocking.
Need ways to take thinking out of it and do it like drywall.
Tim
Edited 11/8/2005 8:36 pm by Mooney
A wall that merits consideration as fuel and wood prices get higher is a variation of the early "wrap and strap" wall from early R2000 days in Canada. The system works cost effectively for most types of siding except shingles. It uses some interior horizontal "strapping" also. Goes like this:
2x4 studs @16 oc sheathed with polyiso, polyurethane, XPS, EPS only-your choice. The building membrane/paper (tyvek and similar) is installed while the wall is still laying. And if you're adding exterior strapping for a rainscreen, it's done before the wall is tilted up also.
With the price of wood sheathing today, the extra energy efficiency from the foam should be a trade off in cost with panel sheathing. If no rainscreen exterior strapping is used, siding can be nailed directly into the studs (better holding than 1/2 ply or 5/8 OSB)
After the house is rain tight with windows/doors installed but before the trades install services, the exterior walls are insulated with R12 fiberglass batts and the airtight vapour barrier (AVB) is installed. Then 2x3's are installed horizontally 24" oc with the 1+1/2" edge contacting the 2x4's. This allows for the installation of all wiring services on exterior walls inside the airtight vapour barrier. No drilling of studs to pull wires; gives R12-14 behind switch/receptacle boxes. After all services are installed and any patching of the AVB is completed, an R8 -23" fiberglass batt is installed in the 2+1/2" horizontal cavity.
Depending on the foam chosen, R value of the wall is nominally 24-27 with most of the stud area being covered with 2 layers of insulation (R value of 16-18). The point of contact of the horizontal studs is 11-13. The effective R value of this wall taking drywall/ plaster, interior/exterior air films into account is probably R 23-26 with not much extra cost. And it's going to be a much tighter wall as very few penetrations are made in the AVB.
There are variations that would allow cellulose to be blown, if desired.
experienced.... we used to do foam on the exterior... i hated the detailing you needed for trim.. also our building inspector pointed out that the let-in metal bracing we were using instead of plywood shear panels would not meet code...
as for fiberglass batts in the wall, well... i guess we've all done that at one time.. but who would do it now ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Up here the let in Metal T (Windbrake) or 1x4 inch is acceptable as is the interior 1/2 drywall by itself (you just need tempory bracing before the drywall goes on) My 17 year old house (which I didn't build but bought in a distressed sale) is 2x4 with 1x4 let in covered by 1" foil faced polyurethane sheathing. The exterior is 1x8 "seconds" (a lot of knots)western cedar clapboard. The interior is 1/2" drywall.
Two years years ago this house was abnout 20 miles from the eye of Category 2 Hurricane Juan. I fell asleep in the basement family room with the full back walkout wall and didn't wake up through the whole night!!! No new cracks developed that night; I only have 3 throughout the house which were there when I bought.
As for the fiberglass batts in the walls, I'm surprised that they're not being used much any more. Just about all houses here except ICF's have batts installed; blown cellulose can't compete in the open spec/developers market (and we have a cell price war going on here now....HD in Ontario is selling 25 lb bags retail for $11; here same brand, it's 8.77!!)
I'm a pro-cellulose man; I stopped blowing fiberglass in 1983- why carry 2 products? Nothing but cellulose for attics and retrofit walls. I can justify cellulose in house walls I would build for myself since I own equipment and would supply the labour but to try to sell it in the market here is a hardship. Really though, batts are not a bad product.
Have you had any of your homes tested for air leakage and do you airseal at the interior or exterior?
i've worked on tons of houses that are built just like yours... all of the "temorary" military housing of WWII is built like that...
clapboard or dolly varden siding nailed right to the studs and a 1x4 let-in brace on the inside corners..worked great right up to the plywood era
but by 1990 around here, none of that met code anymore.. now the new IRC has really upgraded the windload design requirements.. we reallly have to watch our p's & q's with hold-downs, shear panels, roof blocking, etc..
BTW... where does "P's & Q's" come from ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
ex... i've got a box of windbrake in my garage.. been there since 1990... next time it sees the light of day will be on it's way to the dumpster..
i've got a buddy does energy testing.. i'll have to see if some of my owners are interested... 'bout time we proved some of our techniquesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"mind your p's and q's"
by Mark Israel
This expression, meaning "be very careful to behave correctly",
has been in use from the 17th century on. Theories include: an
admonishment to children learning to write; an admonishment to
typesetters (who had to look at the letters reversed); an
admonishment to seamen not to soil their navy pea-jackets with
their tarred "queues" (pigtails); "mind your pints and quarts";
"mind your prices and quality"; "mind your pieds and queues"
(either feet and pigtails, or two dancing figures that had to be
accurately performed); the substitution of /p/ for "qu" /kw/ in the
speech of uneducated ancient Romans; or the confusion by students
learning both Latin and Ancient Greek of such cognates as pente
and quintus. And yes, we've heard the joke about the instruction
to new sextons: "Mind your keys and pews."
The most plausible explanation is the one given in the latest
edition of Collins English Dictionary: an alteration of "Mind
your 'please's and 'thank you's". I've heard the name "Dolly Varden" before but can't remember the context or reason I heard it. What is Dolly Varden sidng???
dolly varden is like a fancy ship lap probably a 1x8 with a scalloped top ( ovolo )
a beaded middle and a shiplap bottom that sits over the scalloped top of the course below
i'd think it was fairly common in the '30's and '40's.. and i think you can still buy it
BTW... i think i'd vote for the first 2 instances of "p's & q's " the admonition to kids and typesetters...
i sure don't buy the "please and thank-yous " they settle on, seems too PC to me
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We call it "Novelty" siding here.It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
"Dolly Varden" is a type of bevel siding, similar to a clapboard.
The difference is that each board has a rabbet along the bottom on the backside to receive the board below, such that the back of the board rests flat upon the sheathing.
The big application is for curved walls; the boards can wrap around a curve and stay level, instead of having the ends 'sag' (as they would for regular claps).
The problem at work with regular claps is that the board below causes the boad above to project outward. This means that the radius of the curve is larger at the bottom of the clap than at the top. Regular claps cannot take a curve and stay level.
When you see a Victorian with a round tower that has bevel siding, this is how they pulled it off.
I've heard the name "Dolly Varden" before but can't remember the context or reason I heard it. What is Dolly Varden sidng???Was gonna ask the same thing.There's a band out of Chicago that goes by that name.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
Dolly Varden sure does pop up in the most peculiar places..
she got her start as a Dicken's character...
http://www.dollyvardenalaska.com/Who's_Dolly.htm
but the most famous reference is the Dolly Varden mines in Nevada
i'd guess (?) that those mines were so rich they milled their own wood for the miner's homes and the mine buildings.. and they developed this unique shiplap siding
the ones they show on the net are pretty plain jane to me.. when installed they LOOK like regular old clapboards...
http://www.xmission.com/~forest/dolly1.html
the ones i saw on houses around here had a lot more detail and they were flat profile with routed detail.... not beveled
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I went back and edited the initial post and zapped the swf since it wasn't properly portraying the Mooney wall. Give me enough MW shots and I'll reconstruct it.
How do you handle the insul-mesh/glue around the electrical boxes?
as for fiberglass batts in the wall, well... i guess we've all done that at one time.. but who would do it now ?
Dang... I'm a subflooring heritic AND an insulation neadertal?! ;)
I'm still probably a few months away from making my decision on exterior wall insulation upgrade. Among the options:
1. Fir it out (vertically) to 2x6 and put in R-19 fg rolls (R-15 w/ lots of bridge)
2. R-13 fg rolls in 2x4 bays + 1" (or 2") EPS, 2x2/3 horizontal fir (R-15/20 virtually no bridge)
3. "Smith wall": 2x4 +insul mesh + cellulose + 1"EPS (R-16-ish? virtually no bridge)
4. Standard Mooney wall: 2x2 + insul mesh + cellulose (R-18 small bridge)
5. Level-2 Mooney: 2x2 + insul mesh +cell + 1" eps +2x2 (R-23, virtually no bridge)
6. Double 2x4 wall w/ offset studs all blown with cellulose (r20, little bridge)
As an insulation neadertal, I've run into blown fg/cellulose, but have never installed it. Typically use fg rolls/batts, foamboard, and can foam.
I WAS planning on making my first jaunt into cellulose land when I did the attic, but the attic insulation comes in after the drywall guys. I don't have a problem with a bit of additional work, however the issue I have with the Mooney walls is that I'm working PT...and I would have to:
1. learn to operate the equipment and the dense pack method
2. get 'er all done in one day since its a rental/loaner.
3. gotta get a second person there to feed the hopper.
Whereas with the fb rolls/batts, I can put it in by myself whenever time allows. But I sure would like to pick up a couple extra "R" points... and it never hurts to learn new techniques...
Can you see any problem with incorporating 2" of EPS with 2x2/3 horizontal firring over it?
On the Advantech subflooring, I'll know withing a week whether I'm going to make my first purchase of it. I'm still hopeful that the clouds will part, a ray of light come shinning down and 3/4 ply will drop to $20/sheet. At this point, I'd probably even settle for straight edge CDX. The difference would be $500-700, which I could easily spend elsewhere. Otherwise I'll go ahead and get the Advantech... even though I'm not 100% convinced that my already dryed in application will benefit from 80% of what makes Advantech so popular (its water proof nature).
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Edited 2/8/2006 1:28 pm by JohnT8
tate.. couple things..
1. <<<3. "Smith wall": 2x4 +insul mesh + cellulose + 1"EPS (R-16-ish? virtually no bridge)>>>
not exactly... actually, there is no insulmesh in my old energy wall... the 1" EPS takes it's place, you drill a hole in the EPS and blow thru that... so
PRO: you save the labor of the insul mesh ..
CON: you can't see what you are doing with the denspak like you can with the insulmesh
2. around boxes you stretch over the top then carefully cut inside the box, then glue the insulmesh to the box.. similar to installing a poly vapor barrier correctly
also... when you actually start blowing , you can make up a shield .. a small piece of plywood cut out to surround an elec. box... just push against it as you blow ... AND.. if you get a bulge with the cells.. you can compress it with your had to beyond denspak..into the super denspak range
3. when you are blowing walls , as long as your machine has a good agitator.. and you take the time to fluff the cells , one man ( one woman ) can blow walls by themself... we set the machine up on the same floor as the walls..
a full hopper ( say one bag/bale ..26.5 lbs ) will blow a lot of wall.. it's not like blowing attics... an it will give you familiarity with the machine for when you do blow the attic..
you , of course, have a remote on/off taped to the end of your hose... the blower man / applicator turns the machine on & off... not the guy stoking the hopper
4. you ain't gonna believe how much mindless entertainment there is in blowing cells.. especially thru insulmesh.. why do you think nerds like andy engel and yours truly get such a kick out of it
5. make sure you sweep clean EVERYTHING on the floor before you start.. you are going to get a lot of product on the floor.. if the floor is clean, you just shovel it up and put it back thru the hopper.. if the floor is dirty.. you are going to run a lot of bad things thru your blower and hose..
dens pak tends to clog the reduced end ( i like to reduce our hose to about 1".. with common plumbing fittings.. one of my favorites is a 1/8 bend in 1" copper.. with an assortment of duct taped reducers to unclog.. you unscrew the nozzle and blow it back
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
PRO: you save the labor of the insul mesh ..
CON: you can't see what you are doing with the denspak like you can with the insulmesh
Somewhere I've seen 2x8' t&g EPS. Seems like you could just do it in 2' lifts. Work your way across the wall 2' at a time and then add another layer of 2x8' EPS. Unless of course the dense pack process needs to breath.
On a side note, do you see any issues with incorporating 2" EPS into one of these wall systems with 2x2 (or 2x3) horizontal furring? 2" isn't going to make the wall spongy, is it?
Third item: Do you have a picture of your dense pack 'wand' setup? I think in that picture I had, you had PVC duct taped on the end of the hose. Must have been the 'Smith' wall, not the Mooney.
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
tim.... here's some more shots of your wall in action....
this last one is where the jacuzzi is going.. there is a high concrete wall ( about 2' ) covered with 1" EPS and furred, and the mooney wall behind is padded extra to bring it into plane with the EPS
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/8/2005 11:54 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike, dredging up an old thread here. Do you have any better shots of how your recepticle boxes mesh with the Mooney wall? You aren't installing them horizontally, are you?
The pics in this thread look like you've put the recepticles on blocks nailed to the vertical studs, not that they're actually mounted on the horizontal blocking.
Point #2, do you do anything special on the blocking with the inside corners? Are you toenailing across the 2 pieces of blocking?jt8
"Take your life in your own hands, and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Mann Jong
the last time we did it, we made up blocks about 6" long ( 1.5x1.5) , then had my electrician give me a bunch of boxes.. we naioled them to the blocks, THEN nailed to blocks to the stud
corners, we usually alternate, one long, one short
one short , one long... and toenail them.. we'll be doing some mooney in a couple weeks on the "adverse house".. see if we can refine some of these techniquesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm looking forward to a fine tutorial on the Mooney wall Mike.
You're the best!
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
OK Tim, how did you convince him to drop the EPS? Seems like with the EPS, you'd have a complete vapor barrier/thermal break.
The furring 2" makes a lot more sense simply from being able to mount the boxes to it. At that point, you just have to figure out WHICH 2" you want to use. Scraps, ripped 2x4's, or 2x3's. Currently 2x4x8' are $2.50, 2x3x8 are $1.75. So the 2x3 is 50 cents more, but you have to take into account rip time.
And if you're doing the old Smith wall with 2x4 cavity fill, then EPS, then furring, a 2x3 would actually give you more to screw into.
Now what he left out was that with this wall you can put a 2x 6 or 2 x 4 at the ceiling if you want to for big trim and the same for the floor and viola you have solid blocking.
I do like horizontal blocking. Makes a wonderfully solid grab bar/et al. Plus it means you don't have to find the dang stud to put a nail/screw in.
And since its a renovation, you need to make sure you've got the horizontal strip for the outlet boxes at the same height as the ones on the interior walls. And don't forget the ones for the K cabinets. And the towel bars...and...and...jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Tim, how did you convince him to drop the EPS?
You need to ask him that . But what he did was figgure the insulated value .
For some funny reason he named it the Mooney wall but he did the insulation chart . All I said was,"wait a minute" I see a difference in cost which is always where I am. He provided full use of the insulated wall plus a vapor barrier.
I think you mis printed your previous post in pricing . You said 2x3 instead of 1x3. You only get 1 lineal foot from a 1x3 and 2 lineal feet with a 2x4. Structure wise the 2x2 will hold nailing as well as a 1x3 but every thing is screwed anyway in drywall so thats moot. Fiberglass is not near as effective as you know and the eps isnt filling the cavity plus youve got to figgure the cost again. That system is failing in effectiveness compared.
The ripping ; Ive got a 12 inch craftsman table saw that flies throuh 2x4s. It isnt good for much else . If you have a Dewalt job site saw or simalar it will be slower. A guide on a worm saw can rip a lot of lumber in a jig table. The cost advantage in the lumber to me is dealing for it . Returned lumber is dirt cheap if its been picked over and wont sell. A skill saw with a guide will fly through it with out problems which would be a problem on a table saw. Im certain Mike doesnt mess with any of that but I do rentals. The biggest thing to me is use of all lumber you have and have saved. All of it . 3 ft 2x12s saw up very nicely and can be used on the top or bottom and around windows and doors plus electrical. Total use of all framing lumber gets used. No more fires burning blocks [except small ones]which that lumber is really free if you were burning it . 3/4 advantec doubled does the same thing using the scraps. Its really hard to figgure a bottom line in cost if you save cut offs from other jobs but Ive usually got a pile of it. I just built a deck and have quite a few long scaps left over . Yes its 1 5/8s thick but can be ripped from the sides 1 1/2 to face out .
Tim
You need to ask him that . But what he did was figgure the insulated value .
So he figured 1.5" of cell was better than 1" of EPS? Some of that EPS is only R4, so that isn't too far of a reach, however you'd have to subtract for the framing members. But removing the EPS from the equation removes an entire installation process, so he was probably trading that and a hair more R for 1.5" thermal bridges. But then again, the insul-mesh is just as much work as installing the EPS.
I think you mis printed your previous post in pricing . You said 2x3 instead of 1x3.
No, 2x3. From what you, Mike, and others are saying, I see no merit in putting 1x furring in. Let me run over to Menards website and check.... OK, 2x4x8 is $2.39. 2x3x8 is $1.79. So about 60 cents difference.
I don't have any problem with ripping. Month ago, I ripped 2"x10"x10's into 2x2x36"s simply because I didn't like the selection of 2x2's. Made a lot of sawdust, but made for some nice, straight spindles (they're not down to 36" in the pic).
You only get 1 lineal foot from a 1x3 and 2 lineal feet with a 2x4.
I don't start converting stuff to bf unless I'm trying to figure out which length of a certain dimension is cheapest (with 2x4 its usually the 8' ).
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Tim,
How come you never came to us to print your wall in the magazine? Sounds like a fantastic 2 page article!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Remodelerator
You'd probably have to go to Mike. He is the real proponent of the Mooney.
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
Yup , talk to Mike about it . Its his not mine .
Tim
I don't think you can cover the joys of dense pack cells in two pages.
Better hold out for 4 with a side bar on machines & blower types.
Probably another side on materials and where to get them.
Can't find the fabric here in Utah, cells are everywhere though.
Joe H
Can't find the fabric here in Utah, cells are everywhere though.
You might be able to mail order it from the manuf cheaper than you could buy it locally anyway. Here is the website for them. Just email & ask for a price list.
http://www.regalind.com/
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
I have bought from them. UPS ain't getting any cheaper though.
Joe H
I've seen in a few other threads where folks are still being directed to Tim & Mike's "Mooney Wall", so I'm dredging this thread back up. I've now blown Mooney wall twice. The second time was just last Saturday.
Observations:
1. If you don't want it covered in dust, tarp the area off. Otherwise the dust will travel.
2. If you keep your floor fairly clean prior to blowing, you can just sweep up your mess and dump it right back into the hopper (which was also a Mike recommendation). We also found that after you put this loose stuff back in, putting a bale on top of it helps it feed.
3. Figure out how you can slow down the flow; Both times I used the Regal cellulose and their Predator blowers (from my local Lowes, free 1 day rental with purhcase of 20 bags of insulation). They have a restrictor plate which cuts the volume of insulation output in half. On the first blow we started out without the restrictor plate and with only about 10' of hose. It was like trying to water a flowerpot with a firehose. Just not practical. But with the restrictor plate and the 50' of hose (or so), it was very do-able.
4. A good pair of coveralls, glasses, and I had a respirator (but a good mask would probably work) and you'll have less hassle cleaning yourself up. The better you seal your coveralls, the less stuff you find in every nook & crannie. But fortunately it washes easily off clothes. The first time I was just in jeans & t-shirt. Last weekend I was wearing coveralls.
5. Don't cut your holes too big. Cut your holes just large enough that you can insert the hose without fighting to get it in. I like Mike's idea of marking the holes with something, because once the dust starts flying, it can take a second to find the next cut. Maybe I'll mark my next ones.
I used a section of shop-vac wand taped to the end of the hose. I then taped a PVC 1.5 or 2" street elbow on the end of that. It let me insert the wand into the wall and then direct it in different directions. But I'm sure my setup could be refined.
I went through around 41 bags (around $6/bag). I need to measure to see how many feet of wall that covered, but my guess is that the insulation itself is cheaper than fiberglass, however once you've added the mesh and blocking, you're looking at more $ per sq ft. But it should also provide superior performance to fiberglass bats.
A lot of static in the air the day we blew. Some of the dust is sticking to the front of the blocking, making it hard to see in these pics. It just brushes off. There is NO cellulose in front of the blocking.
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This pics shows the misc that winds up on the floor. And that is after scooping up the larger piles and feeding them back into the hopper. In this case, my sister was playing loader while I blew the walls. I turned the machine on and left it on as I filled in one section and then just popped the wand up to the next cut-hole (I didn't shut it off between holes). So you're going to wind up with stuff on the floors..no avoiding it. Just scoop it up and feed it back in.
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I haven't cut the fabric around the window yet. I like the added privacy. Whenever I get around to it, it probably won't take 30 seconds with a utility knife.
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On this 3rd BR, I had cut the holes a little too big. Made it more inclined to blow back out at me. I used my hand to block it as best I could.
View Imagejt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Looks good t8. I'm gonna have to fill some walls on my current project and was planning to use the Lowes setup. Glad to know it will work well for walls.
Thanks for posting.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Looks good t8. I'm gonna have to fill some walls on my current project and was planning to use the Lowes setup. Glad to know it will work well for walls.
The nearby Lowes also had a plastic nozzle that you could tape on the end of the hose, but it was worthless. Clogged in about 2 seconds. The further Lowes has at least one substantial looking metal nozzle, but I haven't tried it. You might be able to use it if you run the cell through twice, but why bother? You're better off rigging your own setup.
I measured my blown walls last night: 19,15,16,12,12,16, 13,5. So 108' minus the 4 window units; 3 at 76"x60" and 1 at 90x60. Lets see if my math is correct...19080 sq inches of window is 132.5 sqft? And then the roughly 108' of wall * 8' height = 864 minus the 135.5 = 732 sq ft. 41 bags did 732 sq ft, so around 17 sq ft per bag.
With tax added it was around $250 for the 41 bags, so $0.34/sqft? The Regal "Insulweb" mesh 8' roll was 125yards (375'). I paid $120 for it (delivered via UPS)about 1.5 years ago (might have gone up a bit by now). So $0.04/sqft for the mesh. Then add the price of blocking. I don't have that number. Some of my 2x blocking were leftovers and some I bought new. Ripped 2x4's & 2x6's.
Maybe Mike will be along and say whether this is comparable to his jobs.jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
John,
I just blew dense pack in some walls in my house, last week. I did'nt have the room, for the mooney blocking, so it was just the stud bays. This was also my second try, so here are my observations.
I used a predator blower, with the restrictor plate. The plate also had a couple of holes covered with tyvek tape. Very little clogging, with a 50' hose. My yard has a nozzle, that tapers from the hose (2") to 3/4" at the output. I taped a 3/4" copper 45 degree elbow to it. Worked great.
It is definitely best to put a bale, on top of the loose fill that is scooped up.
I used the remote swith, to stop the blower, when changing holes, this time. It may have taken a bit longer, but I had very little to scoop up.
The insulation work was on the first floor of my home. Closing off the stairwells, kept the rest of the house pretty clean. Not perfect though. I also shut down the furnace while blowing, and for several hours after, to let the fine dust settle.
Fortunately, I got the work done, just in time for the week long below zero snap that we're having in N.E. Wisconsin now. I'm retrofitting every part opf my house that gets opened up with the dense pack. Removing the high density fiberglass, that we put in, when we built, 15 years ago.
I love this system, and must say a huge thanks to Mike for sharing this with all of us!!
Brudoggie
Ive been lurking at FHB for a long time. First post. Im planning on doing the mooney wall from the outside. What grief might I not expect?
This section of old house would include new windows, door and associated framing--completed with the additional strapping width considered. The strapping would be on the studs, on the outside wall, then mesh, then blow and sheath. The drywall inside would hav to be finished before blowing. Weather might be the biggest challenge.
Lets see if we can get Mike Smith's attention on this one. He would give you a better idea. My first thought would be that I wouldn't want the cellulose to get rained on, so you would need to keep it protected from the rain. And if I was building the wall out, I'd want to make sure that I wasn't going to have issues when I hit the roofline and corners.
It sounds like you're going to have the inside gutted, is there some reason you didn't want to put the blocking on the inside?
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Thanks for the reply, John. We have heavy, cast iron baseboard hot water heat. I wouldnt consider repositioning them and doing the Mooney wall from the outside would then be a way to minimize the heat pumpe thru the wall by these heat sources right up against the wall. We also have traffic noise issues and there is no way to get any good noise mitigation behind those heaters.
It seemed like firring on the outside would help both thermally and for sound.
The logistics of getting it all accomplished without getting rained on--in NE Ohio, is a big worry. The wall length is about 30 feet with two new windows and replace door.
We had planned to extend the roof overhang, anyway, as we have virtually none. Then the roof would be contracted for shingling.
I asked similar questions in this thread, you might want to check out.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E
If you have the siding off the outside, I would think you could omit the mesh altogether and just blow the cells through holes in the sheathing. That would help with your concern about getting cells damp with exterior exposure.
Drill hole, blow cells, spray foam the hole, then felt or housewrap.
Thanks, Stray, but that link was the upstairs remodel guy.
Im kinda liking the mesh/straping for thermal break and since Ive never blown cells before I could see what was going on.
I guess Im glad Im not finding "it cant be done, because...", not that I ever really pay attention to "cant".
Let me try this again:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=92562.1
Guys,I have a question about cellulose insulation. I have a 1890s balloon frame house that I would like to insulate with cellulose. There is a 2nd brick foundation wall on the inside of the stone foundation wall that runs all the way up between the floor joists to the bottom of the subfloor. I have a 22" high space between the top of the stone foundation wall and the bottom of the subfloor that I do not have access to. So if I blow cellulose into the wall cavities It will go all the way down and sit on top of the stone foundation wall. I'm worried the cellulose would absorb moisture wicking up the foundation wall and rot the sill plate. Other than knocking down the top of the non-structural brick foundation wall I can not access this space. What would you do in this situation?
Might it be possible to drill access holes either from outside or inside and fill that void with closed cell foam ? Don't have any idea, just tossing it out there.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
well, mike... that's interesting...22" huh ? was that so they could keep the siding close to the ground , yet increase the head room in the basement ?
anyways, here's what i think
if your framing isn't wicking moisture up from that area, then the cellulose isn't going to either
why don't you open some inspection holes thru the brick so you can investigate more ?
what is this brick supporting ? sounds like nothing.... i assume the first floor joists are carried on a ledger on the balloon frame, like the 2d floor joists are
22" huh ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hi Mike,
Any thoughts on the original question of doing the "Mooney" wall from the outside. Id just be putting the vinyl siding back on. Any strength issues by hanging 5/8 OSB off the strapping or something else Im not seeing?
Thanks
should work fine.... to get the shear strength benefit of the osb, just mkae sure the panels are blocked on all the edges
also , run this by your building inspector so you don't get caught with your pants down
there is some loss of shear strenght becuse of the layering of the framingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=65624.240
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
no sin to knock a few holes in the brick wall
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks. Did you ever do this job? Aside from the Hardie board, thats what Im after.
I haven't done it yet. I had a flooding situation in my basement, so foundation drainage and interior gut of my basement walls trumped my siding job...I should be done with that by spring.I am sill thinking about the siding job. Perhaps I'll get the benefit of your experience to guide me through.... It does seem doable.
You gotta be quick but as you are transferring from hole to hole just put your hand (flat palm side) over the outlet end.....it won't plug!
Sure lets you move along quicker.
You gotta be quick but as you are transferring from hole to hole just put your hand (flat palm side) over the outlet end.....it won't plug!Sure lets you move along quicker.
Last blow I had one hand on the hose and one feeling for the next hole (that just doesn't sound right), so either I need 3 hands with your technique, or to mark the cuts. Marking the cuts would probably be easier. I'll give it a try next time.
And by the by, I posted this in another thread but might as well put it in here as well. Here is the updated price list from Regal as of Feb 5, 2008 (people who make the mesh). The second PDF is the Regal Wall instruction sheet. Please note, that is instructions for the REGAL WALL, not the MOONEY Wall. The Mooney instructions were earlier in this thread.
jt8
"The unfortunate thing about this world is that good habits are so much easier to give up than bad ones." -- Somerset Maugham
Edited 2/5/2008 3:47 pm by JohnT8
If you were willing to lose 8" of thickness you may as well frame double walls and blow the whole assembly with cells.
This configuration would yield appoximately R23 rather than the R20 that the Mooney wall + 1" EPS would achieve.
Well, if the 'true' Mooney Wall didn't include the EPS, then WITH the EPS, it would be R23.
Too late in the evening for me to figure out which way would be cheaper... probably a wash... jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Tate,I imagine the concoction you describe would yield a high R value but I think you could achieve the same results with less labor, if not less material cost.>>>>"2x4+2x2+1" eps+2x2+1/2"drywall = around 8"."Number one thing that I notice is you could use 1x3's over teh EPS rather than 2x2's. Even still, you have a 3/4" airspace between the EPS and the GWB.Instead of furring out your wall once, applying foam, and furring again, why not just build two walls? I think if you really wanted a great wall using conventional framing techniques (ie. no SIPS, ICFS, or other less accepted methods) the double wall would be flexible and effective.One other benefit of two separate walls would be if you wanted to increase your R value all you would have to is move the walls apart and blow the whole space with cells. You could probably go as high R30 with the only additional expense being the ft³ cost of cellulose.Of course, depending on where you live, your ROI would diminish rather quickly. I think it's a safe be to say that any added R value over Mike's Mooney (at R16 not including ext. sheathing, GWB, etc.) would take greater than 20 years to realize a return.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Did you say you'd put a vapor barier between two layers of insulation? On the warm side of the outside layer and the cold side of the inside layer?
Seems like a great way to limit air movement through the wall because the vapor barier could be pretty much solid, but seems like there could be a condensation problem. Not?
Yes. The air vapour barrier is essentially hiodden from the trades as they don't have to go through it much-only penetrations to the exterior services such as electrical conduit, exterior receptacles, cable/gas services. The drywallers with their ugly little drill/cutters can't wreck what you may have done around a regularly installed box.
It was found early (1980's) in Canada's R2000 Program that if you maintained a ratio of 2/3 insulation ouside of VB to 1/3 inside, that no problems would occur (except in the far North). The current version of our national Building Code allows the vapour retarder (barrier) to be moved farther into the wall as the number of Degree Days falls!!
Thanks, experienced. Have you been using that 1/3:2/3 ratio long enough to have taken some of those walls apart? Do you have a real world opinion?
This was used in the early 80's to early 90's and then oil got cheap again so most went back to standars 2x6 walls. I still see a couple of the builders occasionally that used the "wrap and strap". They have never mentioned any problems to me with the system. Since 1995, our building code here now allows us to place the VB where we want as long as we can illustrate/prove that the interior air will never reach its dew point/condensation temp at the cooler vapour barrier. This requires the builder/designer knowing a bit of building science like how to calculate thermal gradients through the wall and then use a psychrometric chart
Anyone know the cost of a 2x3 steel stud?
There's a piece called hat channel (I think, it's been awhile) that is like a 1½" stud.
I thought it would be good for this, but it was kinda pricey at the time.
Joe H
My initial posting had errors. It was combining the Mooney with the 'Smith' wall. I edited out the confusion.
So a "Level-1" Mooney would be 2x4 + 2x2 horizontal furring, so that would only be increasing the wall thickness by 1.5".
From my point of view, fiberglass batts aren't quite as good as dense pack, BUT, dense pack takes two people to install, and you're not going to be able to do it at 2AM without pissing off the neighbors. And since I'd be using a loaner/rental, I'd have to do it all at once. Whereas with the fiberglass batts, one person can install them (I'm often working alone) and the only noise associated is the tack hammer, and you can do it at your own speed.
So what if I put R-13 roll/batt into the 2x4 cavity, and then 1" EPS, and then the 2x2 horizontal furring. R-13 would probably break down to R-10ish when you take into account the framing members. You're up to R-15 with the EPS, and it gives you a thermal break. Or maybe make it 2" EPS ($10/sheet?), and you're up to R-23 with an even better thermal break.
You could still mount electrical to the 2x2 furring (which puts it inside the thermal break).
EPS and furring = around 3.5 added inches. Do you think you could do your second wall cheaper than 2" EPS and furring?
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Edited 11/9/2005 11:24 am by JohnT8
>>>"Do you think you could do your second wall cheaper than 2" EPS and furring?"I don't know, probably not. One issue is that using FG is, in my opinion, a marginal choice. I can understand that the circumstances might be different for you (i.e. working at 2am) but that makes no practical difference to me. Machine rental and noise are certainly factors for us, but much more for you.I would assume you're planning on using 1-1/2" boxes for all EL? I think this would prove to be a pain but could be wrong.I still think if you're going to the time and expense of furring and installing foam you should just fur and install a decent insulator (cells). Your example still has 1-1/2" of wall thickness that is not utilized.BTW, by my calculations your 2x4+EPS+2x2 wall would yield a performance of R15.1. This is close to what a typical Mooney wall yeilds but that is using the published R value of FG which probably is not reliable. If you omitted the EPS and used 1x3's instead of 2x2's you would yield R13.5, which might be comparable to the R15.1 of your wall when you take into account the loss of benefit FG experiences at lower temparatures, wind washing, inaccurate installation,etc.I'm using a spreadsheet I created a few years ago to get all these figures.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
John, I will point out that the benefit your EPS wall has over the Mooney or others (even my double wall concept) is that you have zero contact of wood to wood for a thermal bridge. Well, I guess the double wall could be spaced 1" or so apart to achieve this.The Mooney wall gives you a significant reduction of thermal bridging and also the benefit of 5" of cellulose. The downside is that the plates, window and door frames, and 2x2 to 2x4 connection points are still thermal bridges.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, long ago & far away was the Leger house. Built with a doubled wall of staggered 2x3s. No contact, and I think he used 1x8s for his plates.
Gene Leger used to post here, long gone though.
Joe H
One thing I have to remind myself is that EPS isn't super R. 4-5 per inch is all. Which is why those SIP walls can be 8" or more. Takes a lot of 4's to add up to a good number.
But yeah, that thermal (and to a certain measure vapor) barrier created by even 1" of EPS certainly is appealing. I've heard people say that SEALING is more important than insulating. Well the EPS boards would certainly lend themselves to sealing. Just touch it up with some can foam at the seams.
And point #2 that I really like the idea of, is that your electrical boxes are all within the thermal envelope, so you dont' have to worry about sealing around them. And as Tim Mooney pointed out, it can really make baseboard/crown/etc really easy to nail up.
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Edited 2/8/2006 12:48 pm by JohnT8
tate.. here's a pic of roy blowing the slanted ceiling in a job... couple things about this that are wrong.. but the job was pre-existing conditions..
first.. on the slants.. we would have installed EPS on the slants before we furred .. but they didn't have the money..
2d .. we would have installed the insulmesh BEFORE we furred... but it was already furred
3d.. this is NOT a mooney wall.. just a plain jane 2x4 with insul mesh..
it does give a good view of the blowing pattern and the hose setupMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike: remind me again- how much does this insul-mesh stuff cost per square foot?
"first.. on the slants.. we would have installed EPS on the slants before we furred .. but they didn't have the money.."
Why, for more R value in the tight space?
"2d .. we would have installed the insulmesh BEFORE we furred... but it was already furred"
I must be going crazy, I thought the insulmesh was installed on top of the furring strips
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
yes... any time i can get a higher R-value in the cap area i try...
here, the attic got 24" ( settled to say 20" ) and the slants only got about 8" so the EPS would have boosted it and broken the thermal bridge
on a wall, the insulmesh goes on top of the mooney 2x2's, but on a ceiling , especially where we are pushing the envelope with the weight of the cellulose ( 24" ) we want the furring to help support the insulmesh..
now.. in the real world.. if i can talk my plasterer's into hanging the ceiling first , then we will blow the attic cells right on top of the blueboard / drywall without any insulmesh... it all depends on the sequence.. this job.. as soon as we got the lid on , we wanted insulation since it was 20 deg.s outside and we wanted our temporary heatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
John,The cellulose does a good job at sealing for air infiltration. The EPS would do the same, and would probably be necessary if you were using FG like you suggested.I guess my biggest issues with your assembly are that you add more steps and the space between the furring strips is not utilized. Of course the time, noise, and equipment restraints you have are not an issue for a FT person so that adds a new dynamic.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
tweaking the original post. We still need better post-blow pics.
jt8
"The difference between greatness and mediocrity is often how an individual views a mistake..."-- Nelson Boswell
here's two sequence shows from our latest:
this is after the mesh has been stapled to the mooney and glued with Elmer's white glue... one day drying time ( overnite minimum )
Chuck loading the hopper of our 1980 US Fiber machine with a 2005 Hurricane blower
View Image
here's what our nozzle looks like... it's a 1" copper 1/8 bend taped to the end so it reduces the size which increases the impact speed of the cells.. we also increase the air flow to mix more air with less cells to get the density we want
View Image
we use one hole every 16" ...and work one stud bay at a time.. going from filled to empty
View Image
we find it helps to mark the hole locations so you can find them when the dust starts blowing.... then we cut each hole with an X
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 6/24/2006 9:02 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/24/2006 9:03 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/24/2006 9:03 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/24/2006 9:06 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/24/2006 9:08 am ET by MikeSmith
here's one stud bay sequence:
bottom
View Image
next...... working up
View Image
next
View Image
getting to the middle
View Image
View Image
and topping out.....View Image
it took 5 times longer to post this than it took Roy to actually blow that bay..
Chuck & Roy blew the perimeter of the house & breezeway in one day...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 6/24/2006 9:10 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/24/2006 9:11 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/24/2006 9:15 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/24/2006 9:16 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/24/2006 9:16 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/24/2006 9:19 am ET by MikeSmith
Mike,
I appreciate the detail you are giving to this thread and the adverse conditions one. Everyone's getting a lot out of it.
Two mooney wall questions
1. Is this system compatible with something like the airtight drywall approach (ADA)? I like the thermal break mooney affords, but I'd like to be able to use the drywall as an air barrier. I don't have a feel for the thickness of the mesh you use and if you can run a bead of caulk along the top and bottom plates over the mesh but under the drywall for an airtight seal. Mooney doesn't appear to be airtight top to bottom. (The cellulose is airtight inside to outside wall) If you had a problem with the strapping - say its bowed slightly - you could get some airflow between the mesh and drywall from top to bottom. Hope I'm making this clear - maybe I'm misunderstanding some part of the system. I think it has great benefits.
2. How reasonable or unreasonable is this as a diy project for someone who doesn't blow cells for a living? We all see the pictures but really only you can say how complex this is, as well as how much harder (if at all) the drywall install becomes.
Thanks for the great threads.
-Brian
ADA is certainly compatible with mooney.. i'm not an advocate of ADA but it certainly has it's adherants... Gene Leger used to post her quite often
if you put your first piece of mooney flush with the floor, it's just like a typical shoe..
and you can caulk to the mesh just as you would if the mesh were not there
can DIY'ers do this.. sure, it's labor intensive but material cheap. and the technique of blowing dens-pak is pretty self -evident.. you need a good blowing machine with an adjustable air vent.. most blowing machines that i kknow of are capable
you will probaly get a better insulation job with blowing your own dens-pak than you would hiring an insulation sub..mostly because you will take more care.. it's your house
the drywall install is easier with mooney , not harder.. just make sure you have mooney where your joints will fall outMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
that deletion keeps calling meMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
What do you do around the rim joists between floors and in the basement? Stu
here's a link showing exactly that
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=67972.1391Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I've got a few questions, if I may:I'm having an addition done and they wanted 2x6 construction.However, due to the framing around the windows and doors (is there an architect that never wanted to put like 500 windows in any room?), I was going to have an insulation "guy" do dense-pak cellulose in the 2x6 walls and he said if I wanted to go "overboard" they could put 1" R-7 foil-faced foamboard (no I don't know what kind-eps,xps,etc.)I figure that would stop any thermal bridging, and yes, may make some sheetrock work interesting, but I'm doing the rock-hanging (and I've done it before over 1" foam), so any reason why a 2 1/2" sheetrock screw won't work?Then I see this setup, and while I'm kinda tempted, I'm not sure it will help that much with the thermal briding around the headers for the windows/doors as opposed to the 1" foam.I was quoted $1.50/sq foot for the dense-pak for the walls and $1/sq foot for the foamboard.Although I see this and I kinda wonder if it would be possible (having NEVER worked with a blower/cellulose) to DIY. Of course, if I'm only looking at saving like $500, then I'd say let the pro do it. (BTW, approximately 1600 sq feet for walls, and 1500 sq feet for "ceilings").
the one inch r7 is an excellent choice.. and worth the price
the only drawback is the lack of blocking for trimMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
just for the record, the only foam that is R7/inch is polyisocyanurate. Excellent stuff.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
just for the record, the only foam that is R7/inch is polyisocyanurate. Excellent stuff.
Isn't that the stuff that degrades a bit over time and loses and R or two? jt8
""The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese." --Dave Barry
hmm, it appears that there is something to that with all rigid foam insulation made with HFCFC's, which is basically all of them.I just saw a passing reference on it though, do you know of any good tech papers on it?-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
I've seen multiple articles that mentioned the decrease in R, but off the top of my head, I can't think of any. Last month's FHB had an article on insulation board, you might see if they say anything about it.
I think even with the degrade, it remains more R per inch than EPS or XPS, however the degrade isn't why I don't buy it, typically it is the price. Every time I've bothered to price it, it cost the most of the foam boards.
But I can see applications where you would want the most R per inch, in which case you'd want the polyiso.jt8
""The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese." --Dave Barry
Jeez, Rob. Haven't you heard of P2000 foil faced foam?? It's promoted at R27 per inch!!!!!!!!!! R48 for 2"!!!!!!!!
SWEET!!!! WHERE CAN I BUY!?!?!?!?hehehe..-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Mike,
I hate to bring up a question about an old post, but I can't seem to find any reference to this in the threads where the Mooney wall has been talked about recently so I hope you don't mind.
In this pic:View Image
Why did you use a ply dam for the base of the cellulose box? Why not just install insulmesh and strap on top of that?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
because we had the plywood and we wanted to be able to put it up and take it down for the trades ( electricians, plumbers & heating )
they needed access to the 2d floor walls in many different locations.
we tacked the ply in place , took it down as they needed , when they were done we nailed it up , then put our foam dams on the open front and blew the box.Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ut oh... I just ordered an 8' roll of Insulweb. These dang Mooney people may have infected my brain.
jt8
"Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success." --Albert Schweitzer
not to worry, it makes great inner-facing for dress making tooMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It's a good thing I don't own my own cell blower. Might have to REALLY worry about getting carried away if I did.
jt8
"Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success." --Albert Schweitzer
Mike - I found an old hurricane blower which I think will densepack okay (need 2 110v outlets) so I'm gonna try it. I'll buy a 4' roll of insulweb and deal with the extra labor since I'm only doing one room - I'll never use an entire roll of 4' or 8'.I'm hoping to use glue and screws for the drywall. I'm not sure how great drywall glue will stick to wood covered with elmer's glue so I thought I might try a poly glue - what do you think?
you will use a lot of glue, and you paint it on so it will saturate the insulmesh and penetrate to the wood
once it dries the drywall glue will have no trouble bonding to the surface, it will get a good tooth from the fiber
i think you will have trouble working with a poly glue
when we used to buy our glue from Regal industries , they would send us a gallon can of a type of wallpaper glue
it was expensive and the idea of freight for a can of glue from Indiana made me start to experiment.. we tried yellow glue .. and wallpaper paste...
the best we found was the Elmer's White Glue
this is our own un-scientific experiment... so take it for what it's worth
have fun... it's pretty hard to screw it up Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, what are your thoughts on using 2x3's for the blocking? Noticed Menards had 8' ones on sale for .89 or .99ea.
jt8
"Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
2x3 is fine.. a little less thermal break... but more nailing surface..
we usually rip 2x6 or 2x8 discards into 2x2 ( 1.5 x 1.5 ) so it doesn't matter wether we nail them on one face or the other.. ( same dimension on both )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Started meshing my shop walls today. Goes on nice!
I've got 2x6 conventional frame. All the electrical will be wall surface mounted in conduit, so I have uninterrupted bays. Should make a nice wall.
How deep do you usually set your dams back, on a typical rim joist situation? My shop is basically a Cape.
I'm thinking about using a 2" foam dam, just inside the wall line. That will give me, the 2" foam and about 4 1/2" dense pack. My climate is similar to yours. Think that's enough? I'd rather not have to mesh or strap that area.
Going to be doing a lot of dense pack, on a historical renovation, I have coming up. Probably be the cells, blown through foam, maybe a 3/4" strapping on the walls. Have to make up for the old plaster that was removed, to reuse the nice old trim.
I may try to do a photo thread, on that job. Kind of interesting.
Thanks for the great tutorial on denspacking !
Brudoggie
bru....
<<<
How deep do you usually set your dams back, on a typical rim joist situation? My shop is basically a Cape.>>
we usually use a plywood dam at the outside of the rim joist ( above the soffit area )
so yours will have that plus the foam.. should be good !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I was talking about the pic in post 65624.97. With the plywood ceiling strapping, and the foam dam between the joists. That appears to be the depth of the joist, by about 16" deep. Out into the room from the rim joist.
I'd like to move the foam dam, in the joist space, towards the exterior of the building.
I'd position the exterior face of the foam, plumb above the interior face of the stud, basically at the corner of the ceiling. That would leave me with, the cells being the depth of the joist (11 7/8") by 4 1/2" deep, between the foam dam, and the rim joist.
I like the deeper detail that you show, with the plywood ceiling strapping, but I need that area accessible, for some electrical, going to the upper floor.
I suppose I could always deepen it later.
Maybe, I'll stub the conduits through the upper floor, and blow the whole floor. That would insulate the shop, and leave the upper area for later. 12" of cells would make pretty good sound insulation, as we may turn that upper floor into a guest house, at a later time.
Decisions, decisions. Is there a 12 step group, I think I'm becoming a cellulose addict!
Brudoggie
OK, so the first step looks something like this?
View Image
Just started playing with it in the 3rd br. For the blocking, I had ripped 2x4's down the middle. That gave me slightly rectangular blocking. For consistency, I installed it with the sharp edge down. That put the wider side of the rectangle facing out (a hair more drywall screwing surface rather than a hair deeper wall). I was tempted to do solid 2x4 around the window, but didn't.
One brain fart on my part: bought 92" 2x4's instead of 8'.
It will be Feb or later before I get around to blowing the insulation in. Too many other areas I'm working on.
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
looking good...
View Image
i see you have the extra row at the bottom to nail off your baseboard
now, lemme see your elec. boxes
also, you know about the inside corners... after the insul mesh is stapled & glued we tack a temporary corner piece in so the corner will hold it's shape...
think about any extra blocking you want to install too.. anyways. fun , ain't it ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i see you have the extra row at the bottom to nail off your baseboard
And at the top in case I wanted crown or some such. It would have been tough to blow cell between the top two (with double top plate behind them), so I just foamed the gap (which is why it looks orange).
now, lemme see your elec. boxes
Didn't have the camera with me until Sunday. I didn't want to do horizontal receptacle boxes, and couldn't find an affordable adjustable box that would fasten via the top or bottom of the box, so most of the boxes will be the built-out studs like you showed us.
View Image
Used 2 3" screws to attach the built-out stud stubs (.131 3.25" framing nails to hold the regular blocking). The old room had 3 outlet boxes, the new one has 7 outlet and 2 data. I'll probably hold off on roughing the new 12ga until a couple other rooms are blocked.
also, you know about the inside corners... after the insul mesh is stapled & glued we tack a temporary corner piece in so the corner will hold it's shape...
Feel free to keep throwing those tips out. I'd MUCH rather learn from your experience than from my own (cheaper that way). ;)
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
John,
What are you doing with all those outlets? Is this a media room?
What are you doing with all those outlets? Is this a media room?
No, that's BR3. Smallest (around 9x15) and least electrified of the BR's. The old LR layout had 5 outlets, the new layout will have 10. Two of the 10 being double outlets on their own 20 amp circuit (placed at the two most likely places to stick the TV/etc). And then 2 or 3 boxes for data cables.
EVERY other time I've worked on a house's electrical, I've been restrained by old wires, small boxes, fuses, difficult wire threading... or any of 50 other issues. Well this time the party is on, and I'm going to put in a REASONABLE number of circuits and outlets. The wall are completely open, and I'm putting in a 40/40 panel.
I had to restrain myself. Otherwise I would stuck an outlet in every 2' :)
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
heh heh
I understand.
be white or ivory?
Well white NEVER goes out of style! :)
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
I'm lost. What did you do to this room? I'm guessing this one you didn't strip down to the studs.
Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?
I'm lost. What did you do to this room? I'm guessing this one you didn't strip down to the studs.
Now you've lost me. Didn't the pics come up? The embedded one is looking at bare studs with blocking across 'em.
The whole house was gutted down to the studs. And 99% of subfloor was replaced. And 50-60 floor joists were replaced. And the main beam was replaced. And new sub-beams were added. And blocking was added. And a few other things.
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
br3_n_wall2.jpg Looks to me like you put firing strips over drywall. That's what has me confused. My computer doesn't do good with pictures embedded straight into a post. If you did that to any of them then I didn't see it at all.
Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?
LOL, I've posted the occasional pic for months now and you're the first one to indirectly comment on the white walls.
I just play with houses as a hobby, not as a living (I'd never survive doing it for a living). Sometimes I can get a little obsessive about stuff. For instance, the drywall had mold on it, so I hauled it all out to the dumpster. There were some places where the underlying studs had mold on it. The public health guidelines for cleanup were to scrub it with a detergent and them spray it with a disinfectant (bleach mixture).
Well my wee little obsessive gene kicked in and instead of just scrubbing the moldly spots, I scrubbed everything..and sprayed disinfectant on everything. And then, as if the public health guidelines weren't enough I added the step of painting everything with an anti-mold paint. And then up until about October, even when I'd put new wood in... I tended to also paint it (hey, its gotta match, right?! Even if I'm the only one who knows it). Fortunately I broke my obsessive gene enough that I haven't gone back and painted the blocking.. yet :)
So in that pic you are looking at white painted studs/sheathing with unpainted blocking on it.
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Ahh Haa! After I posted that and went back to bed I got to wondering if that might be what happened. There's nothing wrong with being obsessive. Good on ya.
Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?
Mike- What do you use for glue in the cold weather? We don't expect above freezing temps for another month and a half. We have been using 2x6's covered with mesh and 1x3's over the mesh for the past few years but are interested in using the mooney wall as an alternative.
even in cold weather the Elmers white glue drys ... you just have to keep it above freezing... temporary heatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I did an experiment last week to determine the best way to glue on the insulmesh. Using Regal insulmesh, I tried 1. Elmers white glue diluted about 40% with water, 2. PVA primer, and. 3. Old leftover Latex paint.I applied the "glues" at about 40 degrees, and they cured just above freezing. After a couple days, the latex paint was the clear winner in a peel test. Give it a try!
maggie... we keep it reasonable during the day... but turn off the temp heat at nite
when we use Elmers .. we use it straight out of the jug..
we staple and glue one day .... and blow the cells the next day...
we usually start blowing where the glue has been on the longest
on the small job we're doing now... we didn't use the insul mesh.. we put the drywall up and bored holes in it ( to see if we could save some time ) this was not a Mooney wall job
consensus was..... by the time we patched the holes in the drywall.. we didn't save any time at all... and it took a lot longer to blow.. with more questionable results
we'll stick to Insulmesh.. stapled & glued
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/20/2007 8:06 pm ET by MikeSmith
I was wondering about that myself. I'm putting shearwalls on the interior side of my bedroom remodel, and was thinking about just blowing in the cellulose through holes (well away from the nails) intead of using the mesh.
Is there really a big difference in the meshes used? Does the spacing of the mesh make a big difference?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
before we used insulmesh ( which is a spun fiber..... like dress inner facing )
we used a nylon 1/4" mesh... i t was harder to stretch, had to use PL200 for glue, and it was a lot messier.... a lot of material had to blow thur the mesh before it would clog and pack
so yes.. Insulmesh is superiorMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I have been reading about Insulmesh in the FH forum and would like to use it for an upcoming project. Where do you get this stuff??? I googled it and only found reference to an Australian company. I am in Minnesota.
thanksShawn
Search here for Regal Wall, should be a bunch of links.
Joe H
I should've searched the whole thread first, sorry.
Another question: I am planning to blow cellulose into a cathedral style roof and drywall the interior. The trusses are on 2 foot centers and the cellulose depth will be around 18" at the peak, much less at the heel. I was planning to install the Insulmesh/insulweb type netting per the Mooney Wall system, and blow the cellulose before drywalling, so that I can see what I am doing. However, am wondering if this is too much weight for the netting to hold back?
The alternative would be to drywall first, but since I have never blown cellulose before, I would prefer to have to do it blind.
any suggestions?Shawn
Lets see if we can get Mike's attention. jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
we blow attics & cathedral ceilings before we drywall... but we put the insulmesh on first with no glue... then we furr the ceiling with 1x3so te furring adds extra support to the insulmeshMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If I understand you correctly, then you will have a 3/4" airspace between the drywall and the insulation once the wall is finished, right? My Building Official will not approve any scenario that creates an "unvented conditioned airspace" in the ceiling above the drywall (this is allowed in the IRC, but has been disapproved in the MN state code). Even though you and I both know it would be just fine, I still can't do it!
I have already sprayed this ceiling with 10+ inches of Icynene foam, so am just trying to fill the open space remaining in the trusses with additional insulation before putting on the drywall. Any suggestions appreciated.Shawn
well.... couple things ..
the bulge will close the 3/4 space
AND... we used to have a BI who said that furred ceilings were a break in the fireblocking
so long as we blocked every 8' he was good to go..
i'm sure your BI would also accept it
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
we blow attics & cathedral ceilings before we drywall... but we put the insulmesh on first
with no glue... then we furr the ceiling with 1x3
so te furring adds extra support to the insulmesh
Mike, Please forgive me as a victim of CRS* but what are the advantages of putting the insulmesh on the ceiling and then furring it out as opposed to just hanging the drywall on the trusses and blowing the cellulose on top later?
*can't remember she-it
Edited 5/1/2008 11:07 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
we're blowing 24" of cellulsoe.. so i want the insulmesh & furring to help support the weight
i don't really trust gypsum board & screws to support that kind of weight
and i sure would be embarrassed if the ceiling started comming downMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
dang john, I clicked on this thread and a few posts later discovered I was back in 2005!
Good stuff.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
Click here to visit the beginning of Breaktime
Get back in your Delorian and set it for 2008.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
Preparing to blow a kitchen/entry this weekend. Instead of meshing over the door/window headers and then blowing them with cellulose, I used foamboard.
They were just some leftovers I had laying around. I didn't have any 1.5" foamboard, so in this case I used 1" EPS (white foamboard) and 1/2" poly-iso (foil faced).
On the past blows, I have found blowing the 1.5" deep headers were a bit of a challenge. I was afraid that I might over fill them, so opted for the foamboard this time.
jt8
HEY! That's a stick from a bigbox over that door! I can tell by the pricesticker on the endgrain.
Thought you only used real wood from real lumberyards?
And you used those fancy plastic staples on yer 12 wire.
You some kinda yuppie or what?
Edited 8/28/2008 10:56 pm ET by rez
HEY! That's a stick from a bigbox over that door! I can tell by the pricesticker on the endgrain.
Thought you only used real wood from real lumberyards
I know... I've sinned. But there were a few times lately when Lowes had a good price on their 96 2x4's. If I'm in the mood to cherry pick, I'll get 'em there instead of having them delivered from the yard.
And you used those fancy plastic staples on yer 12 wire.
I'm less likely to damage the wire with those than the traditional staple. Seems like the plastic ones are a lot more expensive though.
You some kinda yuppie or what?
I'd have to hit the lottery. Not drinking $5 cups of coffee yet. jt8
hey tate..... it's all goodMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nephew snuck up on me with a camera while I was was waiting for the loader to reload some loose cell.
View Imagejt8
Looks good. What kind of blowing machine did you use? Did it work ok? Thanks,
Kenny
I've used the Lowes blowers each time. The folks that make the Insulmesh also make the cellulose which my Lowes carries and also provides the blowers. The Lowes deal is free rental with 20 bale purchase. Just make sure it has the reducer plate in it and that you have lots of hose (otherwise the flow might be too intense).
And yes, it works just fine. Works best when you have someone else loading for you. She was using a 5 gallon bucket to pack the stuff into the hopper from time to time. Otherwise she just fed in new bales.
On this blow, I was a bit more agressive and have the insulation packed in a little tighter. I'll have to see if the drywall guys might have a problem with it that tight (don't want wavy walls).
jt8
It all looks good.
Are you goung to rock it or sub it out?Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
That particular wall got sheathed in plywood (kitchen wall) and then hopefully sometime in the next month will get the drywall. Subbing it out (I hate doing drywall or roofing).
jt8
ain't it funny how everyone looks the same after a couple hours blowing cells ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
got an email asking about best insulation for Midland , Ontario.... so thought i'd bring a bunch of threads back to the top...
anyone know where that one that riversong was posting in ?
& Hudson Valley Carpenter ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
This the one you're looking for?http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=113953.1'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
View Image
no... i think it's those other 2 i foundMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
tim.....i lost your post to me....my daughter handed me my 5 month old grandson Finn and i got distractedMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It was just the Mike Smith thread.
Forgive me if this has been addressed already... but how can you be assured that you have achieved the appropriate density to ensure there is no settling? Settling is my only concern with this system. Someone said 2 lb./cf. Regal says 3 lb./cf is necessary. I see there is some sort of tool that can be purchased for $125+ that measures the density I guess. Is the tool necessary?
calculate the volume of the space to be filled.... like a 12' section of wallwatch your bag count ( each bag / bale weighs a specific amount )when you think it's full and packed..... do the math.... the answer will be in lb/ cfor you can calculate how many bales it will take to get your target you know the volume of the wall section.... you know that to get 3 lb/ cf will take say 4 bales...... when you're half done... you should have used 2 balesif you're comming up short.... reblow some sections..
if you're going over... congratulations !!!!!it's pretty easy to calculate the volume of the section... you know the depth ( 3.5"....... 5".... etcyou know the ht' of the baystake the length of the wall and deduct the number of studs x 1.5" for netcounting bales gets to be a game for the guy packing the blower.... and everyone gets involved in quality control..........we don't need no stinkin $125 density meter........
but if you get one... lemme borrow itMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/2/2009 8:39 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike-recently found and read the "adverse conditions" thread...VERY impressive.
In that thread you stated that origonally you applied vapor barrier over the studs, then foam, then horizontal strapping but after switching to dens-pak you eliminated the vapor barrier and foam, switching to 2x2 strapping. (if I got all that correct)
Questions, if I may:1) After eliminating the v/b and foam what advantage do you see in the "mooney wall" (Is that the correct term?) instead of just going to 2x6 studs? Is it to reduce thermal bridging?
2) When you talk about dens--pac are you referring to dampspray cellulose or blown dry.
Hope I am not highjacking this, Am very interested in this topic as We are just this year under a new stricter energy code. up untill now, most of us in this area were still building plain 2x4 walls, 12" attic insulation, no foundation insulation etc.
livon....
<<<
Questions, if I may:1) After eliminating the v/b and foam what advantage do you see in the "mooney wall" (Is that the correct term?) instead of just going to 2x6 studs? Is it to reduce thermal bridging?
2) When you talk about dens--pac are you referring to dampspray cellulose or blown dry.>>>>
1) since we used to use foam, we eliminate that cost of material... and we eliminate the labor to install the foam... and the blocking problem of dealing with trim around teh openings thru the foam
2x6 studs have a large heat loss thru the thermal bridging problem, now our thermal bridge consists of a 1.5 x1.5 area every 16" or so
our next project is scheduled to be 2x6 Mooney
2) dens-pak always refers to blown dry..... dampspray ( or "wetspray" ) is always dampsprayMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm curious, Mr. Mike, about the 2x4 wall.
Have you ever cut your wall strapping at 2" to make the depth the same as a 2x6? It would seem easier to for the opening jambs.
If not, what are the reasons for your choice of a 5" depth vs 5.5"?
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
if you want to add 2" to the depth of the wall , you have to accurately rip 2"
if you add 1.5", you can rip at any width you want... so... in a 2x6 we get 3 rips at about 1 3/4"....and you don't have to worry about accoracey
and further.... any place we need blocking , we can put in any piece of 2x that suits
the job that's comming up we intend to do 2x6 with 2x2 mooney... for a 7" depth
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/5/2009 11:05 am ET by MikeSmith
Logical. I look forward to the watching the new project... that's a LOT of cellulose!
Thanks!A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Hi Mike,I've got a project coming up in the spring where i'm hoping to have my first go at the Mooney Wall system. One question (for now)...In terms of the ceiling, how does the sequencing work with insulweb, strapping, and electrical? I saw you mentioned in one post that elec. is done prior to insulweb/strapping but then i noticed picture in "RFH Ranch" where the insulweb/strapping is up and the electrician is stapling his Romex to the face of ceiling joists and cutting out sections of insulweb to put in fixture boxes???
right.... in a perfect world all the sequencing would follow
that was a truss job.... so i wanted to have all my furring up ... but the insulweb goes first .... then the furring
just have to keep coordinating with the plumber and electrician.... plan A....plan B.....plan C
sometimes it's easy enough to patch the insulweb
i want the furring below the insulweb for 2 reasons....
one .......it strengthens the insulweb
and 2.....it allows the insulweb to bulge down as much as 3/4 before it starts to push against the ceilingMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Got it.Do you typically try and get the Mooney system up before doing partition walls? or do you find that to be too much trouble?Thanks for the help.
some times yes, sometimes no...
we might put up a 16" section in a stud bay where a partition will tie inMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
just a bump before tis falls off the cliffMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Trying to lure Riversong back aboard are you ??!!
Since you bumped it, I'll ask a question I've had for a while. Why do you furr out the ceiling? Since I think you would have minimal thermal bridging on the ceiling, it seems like unnecessary time spent, with the possible pain in the butt factor for subs needing access to the framing later on.
Tracy
If you aren't in New England, ignore. This is a thing they do along the coast!
We have discussed this ad naseum on here!
Well, I remember discussions of strapping and it's traditional locale of the northeast, but I guess I never saw the question asked in relation to the Mooney wall and thermal bridging. If it is just for strapping, then I understand, although by putting up the insulmesh before the strapping, it just seems like making more work than necessary for other subs for not much benefit, with the benefit being to just keep the insulation off of the back of the drywall.
That is it. As far as tthermal bridging the cellulose covers the ceiling joists.
well.. besides a furred ceiling being superior for many reasonsif you staple up the Insulmesh... then furr the ceiling...
then you blow, say , 20" - 24" of cells in the atticwon't you feel better knowing that the furring will help support the cells ?and that the insulmesh can actuall sag 3/4" before it even starts to exert pressure on the gypsum board ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Not knowing the holding strength of gypsum on 16" centers, I don't know if I would feel better or not. Probably not. I can't imagine 20" of loose blown cellulose can weigh that much. Just wondering if the insulmesh and strapping outweighed the expense/time/hassle factor of just strapping.
Tracy
manzier...... I know most of the rest of the US does not strap ceilings
but everyone, other than some of the johnny-come-lately tract builders, in the New England area does
here are some of the benefits:
it stiffens the floor system, similar to blocking
since the strapping is perpindicular to the joist , you can nail your partition ( non-loadbearing ) walls to it... no need for cats
the strapping takes out half the variation in any ceiling... you get flatter ceilings
the strapping creates a 3/4" plane that you can fasten devices to... it makes mounting special ceiling fixtures a breeze... you can substitute 3/4 ply in the strapping plane for hanging things
strapping facilitates ceiling molding and special ceilings
board hangers have a bigger target for drywall screws
so... extra labor & expense ? maybe.... depends on your viewpoint
to us , it's just part of the job
cellulose weighs 2lb/cf so one square foot of ceiling will have apx. 4 lb
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I understand the strapping. I could see how it would give you a lot of flexibility with fixture hanging, stiffening the ceiling, etc. and how it is superior to no strapping. I'm now clear that you are not doing it for thermal bridging purposes. My question was re; the insulmesh between the 2, and how it causes problems for your guys and subs with scheduling and because it is a barrier to being able to work above and access above the ceiling joists from down below before the gypsum board is up. Sounds like it's something you do just because it takes the weight of the loose blown cellulose off of the gypsum board. That's fine, but not something that I would ask for when building my own house. Thanks for your response.
Tracy
it ( the insulmesh ) also has another benefit.... it means we can insulate the attic at the same time we insulate the walls...we insulate the walls before the drywall gets hungso... this is just one more thing we have developed as part of our job sequenceif we had to wait to blow the attic, then it would mean two set ups and also , a lot of the time, we are working with temporary heat .. so the sooner we can get the atttic blown.. the better off we arein terms of future:...... we can also remove drywall from the ceiling ( for what reason, who knows ) without disturbing the insulationMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
So are your studs 93" long? Do you make changes to sill or double top plate?
Thanks for all your great posts, BTW.
Jim x 3
hey...... us'ns just discovered pre-cuts ... in this century..... if we're doing a "standard wall" we'd use 92 5/8 plus a shoe & a double plate ( 4 5/8 )gives us a framed ht of 97 1/4 when we furr down we get 96 1/2... so most of the time the rockers don't have to strip anythingMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
How much effort do you put forth trying to pull the mesh tight on the walls. I'm doing this for the first time... seems like trying to pull it tight only makes it stretch and wrinkle. Letting it lay flat and staple it where it wants to be looks good but I don't know if it's tight enough. Its kinda tight... but somewhat bouncy. I haven't glued anything yet though.
we usually tack it up in the top corners... then work the middle down a stud...
then branch out from therewe pull it very tight... if it gets bunched.. staple the bunchwe use Elmers White glue ta we buy in the gallon jugs at HDthe glue tighten's it up some tooMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"claimed R value"
We know that a claimed R value of R-11 in a fiberglass batt wall has a much lower "true R value", but what numbers do you use when you're describing the Mooney wall? (2x4 ..16".. with 1.5" blocking)
Claimed?
True?jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. -- Carl Sandburg
i figure a 2x4 Mooney wall to be actual R-18....... R-19
assuming 16" oc and a cavity depth of 5"Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
you don't know what your limits are until you excede them!
Did you see that riversong was on today?
Mike
Are looking for the Larson wall truss thread from 1 year ago when Riversong 1st made his appearance? Here is that link.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99930.2
Rich
Aah, OK. I hadn't considered the weight, not having dealt with cellulose in those quantities.
After I posted that question I got to thinking ...considering that the trusses probably conduct a small amount of heat all the way to the roof sheathing, the furring probably helps out as a thermal break too.
Mike, I've had some fun, kicking around ideas about the theoretical 2X8 Mooney wall (AKA Smith-Mooney wall) you proposed in that thread on super-insulated homes.
The best idea that's occurred to me so far is to make up the jack studs, jacks and headers with 2X4s, installing them as inner and outer pairs. That should allow a 1/4" thermal break between each pair.
It would also leave 4 1/4" space between the inner and outer headers, enough for four inches of ridgid foam.
Given roof trusses, what do you suppose your engineer or BI would say about separating the headers like that? To me, it's legit because the loads are still carried properly, as long as the trusses are engineered for a wall of those dimensions.
Of course, it wouldn't be a big deal to double the outer header but I'd prefer to use the space for insulation.
So, is that something like what you had in mind?
just a quickie...
i figure the requirement is still for a 2x4 bearing wall... so the 2x8 is gravy
don't forget , the wall is 1/2" sheathing, 2x8 stud ( 7.25" ) plus Mooney ( 1.5" )
so the wall thickness before gypsum is 9.25"
in the window/door/header area
the stud would be a 2x8
the jack would be a 2x4
the header will be a box header... in the IRC they allow box headers and vary it depending on the width of the house ( 24', 28' , 32' etc. )
if the rough floor to ceiling is 8'-1" ( 97" ) &
if you have a standard top of window set the same as your 6/8 doors at 6'-10 1/2"
then there will be 13" between the bottom of the single top plate ( remember we're stacking the framing so we're using 24" oc for our studs )
and the bottom of the rough opening
so , we get an engineered box header 13" deep for rough opening spans of say a max of 7', which will accomodate any double door you'd want to use in a super-insulated house
OR..... we could incorporate some LVL box header, bearing on the exterior 2x4 jack----
everything else can be a plywood box to give nailing for trim....
anyways, that's what i envisionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
just a quickie...
You know, that's all I ever ask for anymore but this is the only place I can get one. ;-)
My envisioning ain't workin' too well. I'm probably missing something but I'm gonna start over, regardless, just to restate my proposition more completely.
I was/am talkin' about single 2X10 headers with attached horizontal 2X4 for normal sized door and window ROs, one installed flush with the interior face and one on the exterior face.
By making up two separate 2X4 rough openings, inner and outer, all the nailing would be standard, but a continuous 1/4" thermal break would exist between the inner and outer surfaces.
It seems to me that one of the few problems with the Mooney wall is around the openings, where 1.5" furring must be installed to provide nailing. If you don't break the framing internally, both the jack stud and the jack, then no thermal break exists in that area.
I really like the fact that the standard dimensions of 2X8s and 2X4s make it possible to create a thermal break around windows and doors, by simply making up a 2X8 wall and adding paired 2X4 components around the openings, then installing 1.5" furring in the same way as you've previously done it.
Edited 5/1/2008 6:27 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I wouldn't think 24" of cellulose would be a problem (weight wise) for GWB ceiling. My intuition says that there would be no such issues. Maybe the GWB association has something to say about limitations of insulation weight in ceiling applications.
i'd be interested in seeing those numbers.... got any thing ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No. I don't. Just shooting from the hip. I can't imagine a 24" ... 2 cuft of cellolose weighs enough more than e.g. 12" to cause the ceiling to fall. 12"+ is done all the time and I've never heard of issues of weight. The gypsum association would likely be a good source for whether this is a problem. My intuition tells me that it wouldn't be ... but admitedly, I don't know for a fact and there will be some point at which there will be too much force/weight from anything in the attic.
I wouldn't think 24" of cellulose would be a problem (weight wise) for GWB ceiling.
Having hung quite a few 5/8" boards on 24" centered ceilings, I agree with Mike that the insulation needs some extra support.
Down this way we use a lot of wet blown cellulose, just shoot it on after sheathing, screed it off the frame wall, let it dry {critical part}, Put up barrier (vapor} on inside, then rockout. That mesh scene with the glue looks like a nightmare, and dry cellulose installed on a vertical wall will always leave gaps. How come you guys still do it that way?
wet blow is great.... but you have to have the special equipment
you mix some kind of glue with the water , right ? or not ?
anyways... you're mistaken.. there are NO GAPS with the mesh... none... zero.. and no settling if you blow above 2 # / cf
so....we have an extra day's labor.... stretching the mesh, stapling, and gluing
then we're good to go..
and no dry time... they can rock as soon as we sweep up our overblow
how long do you have to wait before you rock ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I understand that there is enough starch in the cels that added moisture is all that is needed.But the extra day might end up being two or 3 or more waiting for it to dry out enough to go over..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
No glue Just water, Seen the results there's no comparison, But do your own homework I just threw it out there as an alternative. I don't think there's a insulation contractor around this area who would touch a system like the mesh one, Too much time =money thing". Lots of good websites for reasearch time if you like.
one of my friends does wet blow.... and the BI had his house done with it
nice system...
i'll stick with mesh & dens-pakMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We did a wet blow six years ago. Sheetrocked soon (one week) after blowing. Cut into the wall six months later for a vent and found insulation still wet. We haven't used it since. Mesh instead.
Oh boy! I'd better go check up on the last house we did. Should have put a truth window in. Thanks for feed back, This is first neg stuff Ive heard, I wonder if there's any more out there.
i know lots of sheetrockers that refuse to hang over it because of moisture problems.
Tell me about this mesh - what is its official name? easy to find?
Forrest
go to the Regal Industries site .. they havelot's of good info on cells
or go back thru the pics in this thread.. look for InsulmeshMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Have you compared material prices of mooney wall vs. Fiberglass batts?
Labor aside do they come close?
I would like to use this detail on my home and was curious about the costs. My labor on my house is free so material wise what do you think?
About what R-value do you get on 2x4 walls with the way you do it?
I have never liked fiberglass and your threads have given me another option. Thanks.
I didn't want to ask in the Quarter Deck thread which is another good one of yours.
i haven't used fiberglass in about 10 years.. so i have no idea of fg costs
i can tell u this:
a 2x6 wall using r19 is actually about r17 due to thermal bridging
a 2x4 with mooney is an r18
i'd have to look at my records to tell u the sf costsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It's not a big deal I was just curious if you had any idea.
I can find out when I get ready to buy some of the stuff.
I won't be using fiberglass at any rate.
Have you compared material prices of mooney wall vs. Fiberglass batts?
Seems like FG has gone up in price in the last couple years, but Mooney is still going to cost more. More for materials and more time to install. I think Mike said he uses scrap 2x6's to rip his blocking from, however I wouldn't have nearly enough scrap, so I bought 2x4's on sale and ripped 'em down the middle. About $1.89/ea, so once you rip 'em and add a little for wear and tear on the saw/blade, figure about $1 per 8' strip of blocking. Plus mesh, plus glue, plus cell.
LOL, by this time next year I should be able to give you my guesstimate on how well it performs. Performance is the reason for paying the extra and putting in the extra time.jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Labor isn't an issue, this is on my own place.
It's going to take me forever to finish it anyway! :)
I noticed that fiberglass had gone up alot in the last couple years, thats why I asked. The difference can't be that much now.
I had a "modified" mooney wall done (haha).They used the mesh, inset staple the hell out of it and blew in the dense pack (dry).2x6 wall, dense pack. (dry).Then, put 1" poly-iso on top (R=7.5)
Went up VERY quickly. They were done in a day. I used those electrical outlet boxes that have the screw in them to "move" them in and out (forget what they're called). I think they were $2.50/each (yes, more than the standard outlet box), but very handy. Slapped the sheetrock up (only downside is I had to use 2.5" screws).They used those nails with the plastic caps on them to secure the Polyiso onto the 2x6 and used that shiny metal tape to seal the joints.For the extra $1/sq foot for the poly, I felt it was well worth it (the room had a lot of 2x6 headers and supports, so there was quite a bit of area by the windows and doors that had NO insulation in them, so this'll help with the thermal bridging).
Google failed me on Insulmesh. I seen the pictures but I'm looking for a supplier. Can you give any other clues? TIA
I think its actually called Insulweb. I went through the same google search a couple of months ago.
Google failed me on Insulmesh. I seen the pictures but I'm looking for a supplier.
Take a look at my reply to McDesign:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=65624.146
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Mike, on your exterior doors, are you just extending the jambs, or are you buying 5.xx" prehung jambs?
I am going to replace all 3 exterior doors. When I priced a $150 back door, they wanted an extra $50-70 to get the 5.xx" jamb. If it isn't too much grief, I am leaning towards getting the regular pre-hung for 2x4 walls and then just creating jamb extensions. My exterior walls consist of the Mooney blocking, 2x4, sheathing, air gap, brick.
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
we order doors for 2x6 walls.. around here they come thru as 6 1/4 " jambs
with a mooney wall the typical wall, outside of sheathing to inside of drywall is 6"
with tar paper, ice & water, insulmesh, etc.... i usuall comes out just right for the 6 1/4Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
we order doors for 2x6 walls.. around here they come thru as 6 1/4 " jambs
with a mooney wall the typical wall, outside of sheathing to inside of drywall is 6"
with tar paper, ice & water, insulmesh, etc.... i usuall comes out just right for the 6 1/4
My thought was to remove the jamb-trim, mount the 2x4 door proud of the inside blocking an then rip some 1x to extend out to the brick and replace trim. Am I asking for a lot of work just trying to extend them rather than ordering the 2x6 door?
Seems like it would be about 30 mins to extend it. Am I off base on this?jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
yes, it's a lot of work .. PLUS
you have the problem of the sill
we typically order our doors with frame-saver jambs & PVC 5/4 x4 exterior casingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
we order doors for 2x6 walls.. around here they come thru as 6 1/4 " jambs
The lumber yards calls 2x6 doors 6 9/16th". Is that the same as what you're buying?
jt8
"We ourselves feel that what we are doing is just a drop in the ocean. But the ocean would be less because of that missing drop."-- Mother Teresa
let's see.. theoretical wall =
1/2 + 3 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1/2 = 6"
so .... your 6 1/2 should work..
you'll just have to shim your casing, which can make it more interestingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Tell me about this mesh - what is its official name? easy to find?
This is their website:
http://www.regalind.com/
IIRC, they have a 'regal wall' which is similar to a Mooney without the blocking.
Here is an thread from last September where I posted their price list at that time
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=81511.4
I bought an 8'x375' roll of the insulmesh. I think it was around $120 with s/h. Came in UPS I believe. The thing I thought was amusing was that it actually came in an 8' tall roll...not folded over like poly.
If you're interested, I can pull up my file and give you the exact price I paid. jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
As Mike Smith said, Insulmesh is what we use. The lumberyard which supplies our cellulose also provides mesh.
But Insulmesh is metal, right?
Forrest
It is a fabric made with synthetic fibers. If you have seen tyvek, it looks like the fibers without the paper.
Insulweb can also be found at this site:
http://www.jrproductsinc.com/netting.html
Mike
You said:
"wet blow is great.... but you have to have the special equipment .... you mix some kind of glue with the water , right ? or not ?"
Six or 7 years ago I had wet spray cells blown onto open walls in my renovation here. The adhesive at that time was white Elmers Glue watered down. Not much moisture was necessary. It did take a few days til dry deep at the sheething surface.
I had other things to keep me busy while it dried. Wet spray left no voids of course. But I wish I knew about Mooney wall back then. Extra R-factor, visual assurance thru the insulmesh of no voids.
Phil
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Mike,
I've got another mooney drywalling question for you. Now, I've read Adverse Conditions so I know the quality of work you do. But for those of us who are less skilled or make a mistake, I'm wondering what you do in the following scenario.You put up the mesh and blow the cells. Then when you go to drywall, there's some defect in the studs you didn't notice -a bow or cup that will make the drywall not go up so well. Is there anything you can do at that point. With the mesh up you can't plane down a stud or anything. Any tricks or does that just not happen to you? Of course, you check the studs are acceptable for the drywall with a straightedge before the mesh goes up, but mistakes/oversights happen. Can a drywall crew do anything to fix, say, a badly bowed stud under the mooney?-Brian
grand.... could start over in that area..
but i'd probably see if i could plane the mooney ( not the stud )
to bring it back into and acceptable plane
it may be that the cells would just hang in there .. or.. if they fall out you could remesh that section after you plane it and then reblow
or handpack with cells
whadda ya think ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks, Mike.I haven't already screwed it up, but I'm just trying to anticipate problems. Sounds like there's no great solution, but I figured you might have a trick. I figure I'm just going to do a regular 2x4 stud wall blow on my little renovation project because I don't want to try and move the baseboard heater pipes in 1.5" to accomodate the mooney strapping at the bottom plate. Its also my first time putting up drywall so I want to limit the number of ways I can screw up.thanks again.
-Brian
Hey Mike
You said:
"on the small job we're doing now... we didn't use the insul mesh.. we put the drywall up and bored holes in it ( to see if we could save some time ) this was not a Mooney wall job...consensus was..... by the time we patched the holes in the drywall.. we didn't save any time at all... and it took a lot longer to blow.. with more questionable results"
Did you ever try or hear of this method? I have heard of cells blown into the wall with drywall with a "trick" to reduce holes to patch. The tapered edges of the bottom horizontal drywall boards were cutoff. A horizontal gap same size as that taper strip was left in the middle of the wall ( between the two boards tapers).
The cells were blown into the wall using that horizontal gap, upwards and downwards. Put that horizontal taper strip back in the middle, and tape n mud as usual. Just a few inches wider.
I think I read this from Fred Lugano years ago.
Phil
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
JohnNice work!Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Just ran across your update. Excellent pics.
jt8
"The old Quaker Meeting house is almost 300 years old and as my sawzall made its way into the pegged ancient wood, a smell emerged that told me about dried, cracked things. The ancient Quakers sitting in the well worn pocket of their silence on the darkened pine benches were whispering something to me across the years. Something about why I was here, why we're here. Lord but it was hot. I reached in to clear anything out of what was the sill, nothing but the hardened mud, lime and sand mortar, dust and shadows." -- Jer
cellulose is not used that often in walls around these parts, so the mesh of which you speak, I have never seen.
white glue over the mesh ? how do ? a paint roller ? over the whole wall ? how much glue do you need ?
sounds a little messy, no ?
carpenter in transition
Attached pics of Mike's.
View Image
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Edited 11/9/2005 12:25 pm by JohnT8
Anyone have any pictures of door casings? Would you have to simply build/buy extension jambs so you can properly trim out the doors?
I've been contemplating something like this for some time, but my windows & doors are already installed. I'm just going with drywall returns for the windows, so it wouldn't make much difference for them, but the doors would need some sort of extension to account for the width of the strapping.
Since we are talking about exterior walls only, and we've got a 6" nominal thickness (2x4 + 2x2 + 7/16 OSB + 1/2 rock), one would need exterior doors with 6" jambs, and windows extended to 6.
No issue with wood-framed exterior doors, although their sills will project an extra 1/2" outboard. The jobber will charge extra to rip 6-9/16" frame stock.
For windows, the best option is to make jamb extensions on site, because the size might command a premium price if getting non-stock factory extensions.
Hinged patio doors with clad frames might be difficult to get in a frame depth to go with these walls.
My walls are 2x6 already. I had considered using 1x3's for strapping - my main desire being to minimize the thermal bridge created by the studs. If I had thought of this idea before I had installed the doors.
I have 3 regular 3068 entry doors & 1 6068 outswing patio door. Ripping narrow extension jambs would be the best bet I guess. I should try my hand on some scrap I guess before deciding if I should go through with this or not.
I see you are in NJ and presume that is where you are building. I know you have a winter there, but strapping 2x6s is probably not cost effective.
thanks
carpenter in transition
Tim, that may have been an 'old', unofficial pic. Back then he was putting a bit of blue chalk in the glue to make it more visible. I have to wonder if that pre-dates the white Elmer's days.jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
this is probably a stupid question from the uneducated, but how does this wall compare to a sips wall?? energy wise, price wise?? seems like a pretty great idea but not sure how thick the final wall will be...FrankWe were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
this is probably a stupid question from the uneducated, but how does this wall compare to a sips wall?? energy wise, price wise?? seems like a pretty great idea but not sure how thick the final wall will be...
Most of the methods we're discussing in this thread are trying to improve on an already existing wall. IMHO, it's a no brainer whether you'd go with one of these methods or a good SIP... you'd go with the SIP.
We're trying to make a bad situation into a mediocre one. With a SIP, you can start off with a great wall. You might have a thick wall, but so what. Some of the suggested methods here would end up with an 8" wall but only get an R value of the low 20's. With a SIP, you can hit R-30 with no thermal bridge and no complicated setup.
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Mike when you install the mesh and spray , do you get any "bulging" beyond the plane line of the strips?
I noticed what you said about the ceiling that you didnt do the same thing because of the weight which I figgured because thats normally a drywallers night mare .
I hire the walls wet sprayed but but dont get the barrier that way. One job I inspected they put the mesh up on one side and I failed it because it bulged but it was wet spray. The other side was open wall.
Tim
yes tim, sometimes you do.. but you can usually flatten it with the palm of your hand, which is basically just further compressing it
when you get denspak, it is cpmpressed, but if you took some of it in your hand you could make a cellulose snowball out of it and really pack it
just like a real snow ball... the more you pack it the denser it gets.. cellulose comes in bales.. the bales are about 13x14x26 ( 3.0 CF) and the bales weigh 26.5 lb.
so, you can see.. they arrive packed to a density of about 8lb/CF, you break the bale, bust it up into little pieces, run it thru the agitator and blow it out at about 1 lb/CF loose blow.. it will settle to about 1.4 lb /cf
when you blow it in a wall cavity, you get 2.2 lb without much effort, and you can get between 3.0 to 3.5 by denspacking it..
and if you put it in a press, you could get it back to the 8.0 it arrived in..
bottom line ( short story told long ).. if there is a bulge, you just take your hand and push
one of the things i like about the insulmesh is the visual inspection you get
we tried the 1/4" netting , which is another method.. but that is really messy and actually harder to inspect... the insulmesh allows full air flow but reduces the dust fast... the 1/4" mesh takes too long to clog and back up
see, here's what's happening, for those who haven't done it before
the stud bay is covered with the insulmesh , you cut an X about 16" off the floor and stick your 1" nozzle in ( it is a bent nozzle, we use a copper 1/8 bend fitting )
the cells pack at the bottom of the bay and clog the mesh.. you rotate the nozzle up and the cells climb the bay .. they start to clog about two feet up the bay and back up towards the nozzle..
the mesh clogs.. and the cells back up .... the cells comming out of the nozzle slam into the clogged cells and start to pack
when you blow to refusal, you can shove the nozzle in and create some more room, then back out and they will pack some more.... it is ALMOST a liquid and it sure is convincing that this is a great air seal insulationMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Subfloor prices have actually come down a couple bucks. 3/4" CDX straight-edge $28.xx. 3/4" ply t&g $30.xx 3/4" Advantech t&g.............$29.xx. Looks like I'll be ordering the Huber product unless a really good ad somes out on Sunday.
What are your flooring layers with Advantech? Do you install carpet right over the 3/4" Advantech? Do you put craft paper down first? Do you put addtional underlayment down? With vinyl, I'm assuming you add 1/4" ply underlayment. With tile... ?? Just concreteboard underlay, or do you slap another 1/2" underlay prior (or does it depend on the joists)?
so, you can see.. they arrive packed to a density of about 8lb/CF, you break the bale, bust it up into little pieces, run it thru the agitator and blow it out at about 1 lb/CF loose blow.. it will settle to about 1.4 lb /cf
OK, since I've never shot cellulose, I'm allowed to ask a stupid question about it: Why couldn't you just jam a bale into the stud cavity and then trim it off flush with the front of the studs? Then you'd have the 8lb/cf density without using a blower.jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
"Why couldn't you just jam a bale into the stud cavity and then trim it off flush with the front of the studs? Then you'd have the 8lb/cf density without using a blower."
Well, in my mind, the great advantage to blowing insulation is that it gets in behind every wire, box, piece of backing, framing iregularity, etc. in the cavity you're insulating. The insulation material displaces air in the cavity, limiting air movement within that cavity.
I guess it would be possible for a person to pack a cavity as thouroughly as the blower does, but it would take a LONG time. And it wouldn't be me saying I could do it, even on a bet. That material gets in every crack, and hole. A well blown building feels, and sounds, noticably different than a batted building. It's really impressive. For remodelling it's definately the cat's pajamas.
Hey Mike, I got a question, though.
I've read a couple different places where you say that if the insulation "bulges" you can compress it back behind the plane of the studs by hand, which only makes for a denser layer.
That's logical enough, but there must be an optimum compaction, isn't there? If taken to an extreme you could concievably get TOO dense, and approach the thermal bridging problems of solids, wouldn't you?
no.... i don't think you can do either..... first you can't pack it with any blower that will approach the baled density.. the product is baled with hydraulic rams
2d... even in it's baled state ( what ..8 lb/ cf ? ) it's cellular picture would still look like mostly air... so, i don't know what it's R-value per inch would be at that state of compaction..
we have to take pains blowing to a density of 3 lb.. i'm not sure we can get to 4 with our equipment
what do some of you other cellulose guys get ?
now... i'm no wood expert.. though i do play one here on BT....
but i wonder what a CF of cork weighs ... or a CF of balsa wood ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/12/2005 12:25 pm ET by MikeSmith
Does the product you use specify an "optimum density"?
I'm not saying you could create a thermal bridging situation. I just used that extreme example to make the point about over compacting. I know it's a problem with fiberglass. The same principles would apply to any material you used.
There has to be a point where you start to lose what you're trying to gain.
Reading about the bales of cellulose made me wonder (oh, no, not again!)--could you build a house out of the cellulose bales, like they do with straw bales? Have to keep them in their plastic wrappers so they wouldn't break apart, so that might be a problem with vapor barrier being on wrong side. Maybe build, then put little holes in the ouside face of the wrapping on the bales? Be a very quiet house I would think!
Be a very quiet house I would think!
I blew about 2' of cellulose on top of 8" of blown fiberglass this summer in my attic. The first thing we noticed was the house was quieter.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
A short review of:
Straw-Bale Construction
Straw-Bale Construction: A Review of Testing and Lessons Learned To Date, Building Safety Journal, May-June 2004, provides a thorough overview of straw-bale construction methods and capabilities.
Noteworthy points include:
The material qualities of straw bales are discussed, such as size, moisture content, density, fiber length, and bale condition.
Wall systems can be either loadbearing or nonloadbearing.
Straw bales in walls are typically coated with various types of plasters, creating a structural composite. Depending on the plaster type, significant structural strength can be added by this outer finish material.
Moisture or vapor barrier type materials should not be inserted between the straw bales and the outer plaster finish materials. Plaster should be bonded directly to the straw bales, and the entire assembly should remain breathable.
Flashings or membranes are recommended at window sills, shower stalls, and top of foundation walls.
Straw-bale walls should be protected from excessive moisture by generous roof overhangs and foundation walls that keep bales well above grade.
Straw-bale wall assemblies provide insulation performance in the range of R-27 to R-30.
Plastered straw-bale wall assemblies achieved fire-resistance ratings ranging from 1 to 3 hours when tested according to ASTM E119. Unplastered bales have exhibited a flame spread of 10 and a smoke development index of 350 when tested according to ASTM E84 (meeting building code requirements for fire-test characteristics of insulation materials).
Structural tests have demonstrated bearing capacities in the range of 3300 to 4300 pounds per lineal foot, as well as significant out-of-plane and in-plane lateral force resistance (in some cases exceeding the strength of plywood-sheathed light wood framed wall construction).
John , Im going to add somthing to the discussion.
The plane thats meant for drywall belongs only to it .
That statement is really nuff said and completes my comment.
There have been many builders or God knows many many other people included that have violated that area for other things but most commonly with insulation. There is no room for both.
Tim
Just a few curious questions on your wall system...
how would this work for sound abatement ? ie sound proofing between units?
it appears the worst part of the job would be the paper install and the glueing... do you think with experience the blowing could be done after the drywall install? or would the patching of the blowholes be more labor than the fabric & glue install?
do you have any experience with the water activated glue cellulose?
i have several blowing machines and was considering drywalling one side of common firewalls (between unit) blowing the back of that drywall with the water activated cellulose to add mass with the hopes of controlling sound transmission before the wall was closed up ... not filling the whole cavity but just a 1.5 -2" layer blown on...
thanks for any insight
p
one of my friends has the equipment for the wet cellulose install.. i don't know if you can partially fill a bay or wether it has to be full depth
the combination of the mooney providing a therma break also means it provides a sound-transmission break,, decoupling the path of sound thru the studs.. the cellulose also has a great dampening effect , so short answer..
mooney wall makes a good sound transmission barrier wall... far superior to the old regular stud wall with fibergkass insulation we all have used at one time or another
as far as blowing after the drywall is hung... yes that saves an enormous amount of the labor.. but you do lose one benefit.. you can absolutely see any pockets that don't get enough insulation with the mesh.. with the drywall it's more of an experience /confidence factor
in standard construction, when we do not use mooney , we often have them hang the blueboard and blow the stud bays thru 2" holes, top & bottom... we use a foam plug and fiberglass mesh tape, and the plasterer skim coats right over the holeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike a few more mooney questions for you concerning the drywall.1. No matter which way you run the drywall, with mooney, its only fully supported on 2 sides with framing. In conventional, unstrapped framing drywall is either supported on all 4 sides (running it vertically) or on 3 sides (running it horizontally). Does the fact that there is less edge support cause any problems or require any extra attention at installation?2. Does this work the conventional DW as opposed to blueboard+ veneer plaster? This relates to #1 in that I'm wondering if you need a tougher final finish given the reduced edge support.3. Have you ever Mooney-ed a wall that had drywall on both sides, like a garage-house wall? I'm wondering if the densepack is too tough on a drywall "outside" wall.Thanks much.-Brian
brian... our drywall/blueboard is supported on the same edges as if there were just studs or joists
just because the furring runs horizontal doesn't mean the edges don't get supported... they have the same surface contact as framing
perhaps i'm not understanding your point
in our current job we did mooney wall on both floors.. but the first floor we had blueboard & skimcoat
on the 2d floor , the owner is going to do finish, so we had them hang drywall and he will tape his own joints
yes , we often mooney walls that have drywall on both sides... the garage wall is the common one as you pointed out..
the denspak doesn't perform any differently with or without the sheathingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the reply, Mike. Maybe I'm not understanding this fully or not explaining myself well. I'm also new to drywalling so I may be making some wrong assumptions.
As I understand it, in conventional framing drywall can be run:
-Vertically (long axis parallel to the vertical studs). Here each sheet of DW is supported on both long edges by the studs and on both short edges by the top and bottom plates. All 4 sides are supported.
or
-Horizontally (long axis perpendicular to the vertical studs). Here each sheet of DW is supported on one long edge (by the top OR bottom plate) and on both short edges by the studs. One long edge does not have a framing member running along its length. 3 of 4 sides are supported.
In Mooney, (and lets say we are running it horizontally) each sheet is supported on the long sides by the 2x2 furring. The sheets are not supported on the short edges by framing members running along the length. Only 2 sides are supported.
Do I have that right? I'm wondering if only 2 sides of support are enough.
BTW, screws or nails? I can only see it mattering in the garage-house connection where you are firing dense pack at the backside of the drywall. In which case I'd be inclined to use screws, but it may not matter.
Sorry to belabor all this but I may try Mooney if I can find a cell machine that is strong enough - so the more details the better.
Thanks again, Mike.
-Brian
brian.. you have it right.. but you don't need 3 edge or 4 edge support
and we use only screws for drywall or blueboard...
i haven't seen drywall nails in use in about 20 years.. too many pops
mooney or conventional framing.. try blowing cellulose.. i think you'll like itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
bump...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I was Googling something the other day and one of the results I got was from a Mother Earth News forum and the poster was linking back to this thread.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
cu... i think we've created a monsterMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
http://www.onesteel.com/products.asp?action=showProduct&productID=151&categoryName=
Maybe I need a different name?
Forrest
I don't see a picture of that stuff, but it sounds more like the chicken wire we use to keep fiberglass batts up in the rafters of a pole barn. Except the chicken wire is wrapped, not welded.
Mike's stuff is here:
http://www.regalind.com/
I've attached a couple pics of my roll of the stuff (which I haven't used yet).
Behind all the garbage there in the first pic is just how it arrives. In a big roll with a UPS sticker on the outside. The roll isn't very heavy. Lighter than a 20x100' roll of poly.
View Image
Second pic is a close up of the stuff. Fiberous stuff. Seems fairly tough too. Probably be late Feb or March before I start using it.
View Imagejt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Reading some material on the Regal Industries web site, I noted a couple of interesting things:They state that vapor barriers should not be used with a cellulose insulated wall ("Our official position is that no vapor barriers are to be installed with our Regal Wall system", http://www.regalind.com/techPDF/General%20Information/Is%20%20A%20Vapor%20Barrier%20Needed%20for%20a%20Cellulose%20Insulatied%20Home.pdf)They say house wrap is unnecessary, but not detrimental
http://www.regalind.com/techPDF/General%20Information/Should%20You%20Use%20House%20Wrap.pdfThey say 3.0 lbs/cu ft density is minimum for no settling
http://www.regalind.com/techPDF/Literature/RegalWall.pdfJust wondering what T8, Mike Smith and others here have to say about this. Also, equally important for at least the first 2, would a BI pass a house with no vapor barrier or housewrap (whether something like Tyvek or felt)?
I fired an email off to them and they sent me the current price list (looks like the same as last Sept). Here it is in PDF form.
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
See here as well for insulation mesh/web/whateverthehell you call it:
http://www.jrproductsinc.com/netting.html
Jason
Great site - thanks!
Forrest
this is the product from that site...
<<<Insulweb
Product No.
Size
Price Per Roll
View Image IW-4125
4' x 375'
$70.00
View Image IW-4250 F
4' x 750'
$130.00
View Image IW-4500
4' x 1500'
$240.00
View Image IW-8125
8' x 375'
$136.00
View Image IW-8250
8' x 750'
$257.00
View Image IW-8500
8' x 1500'
$490.00
View Image IW-9125
9' x 375'
$160.00
View Image IW-9250
9' x 750'
$300.00
View Image IW-9500
9' x 1500'
$585.00
View Image IW-1125
10' x 375'
$178.00
View Image IW-1250
10' x 750'
$320.00
we buy the 8' x 375' and pay $160
so the above prices are greatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, where are you paying $160 for a 8' x 375' roll? The Regal price list I posted earlier,
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=65624.161
has that roll for $104.23 plus s/h. They aren't charging you $50 s/h, are they? I paid around $120 delivered. That J&R products roll for $136 is no bargain when they hit you with s/h. Better to buy directly from the manufacturer and pay the $104.
jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
you mean like... plan ahead ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL, as much as you use the Mooney, I'm surprised you dont' keep the web in stock. Not like it takes up much space. Maybe you could get a bulk discount.
I guess the next step would be to make some sort of tape-gun for the stuff. Just insert the roll and away you go. Hmm... probably have to be on a little dolly, maybe like the thing those Rubbermaid trashcans have. Somehow design it so that you can staple and glue it all at once in the time it used to take just to unroll the stuff.
:)
jt8
"One of the fondest expressions around is that we can't be the world's policeman. But guess who gets called when suddenly someone needs a cop." -- Colin Powell
Put up the fabric on BR 2 (one wall) and BR3 (two walls). The stuff goes up pretty easy, holds staples really well. As suggested, I used the white Elmers. Gallon from Menards was around $9. 2" roller.
Pics are on the camera (which isn't with me).
Question: How much effort do you expend on trying to get the fabric perfectly flat on the blocking? I had a few places where after the glue was dry, there was a bubble (spot sticking up a bit from the blocking). I went back and fixed a few of them (sliced the fabric, slopped some glue on with a brush, and stapled it down).
Should I be spending more time getting the fabric on straight as possible without any bubbles, or should I just live with 'em?jt8
"The flower that follows the sun does so even on cloudy days."--Robert Leighton
we find that the bubbles will wind up with cells in them .. so it's just easier to take care of it now
but i wouldn't worry about perfection... you can always mash the cells with your had if you get a bulge
watch your inside cornersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
mike,
been looking real close at your mooney wall, looks better than most of the other stuff i'm seeing done around here, i am mostly done with my framing and am looking at sprayed in urethane ,but the cost....other than the obvious large cost difference can you point out some pro's and con's between the two....couple more things is settling an issue and the blown in insulation they use around here (attics) i don't think is fiberglass looks like it has newspaper in it ...anyway is dens-pak the specific type i should be looking for...i am owner builder in small town alaska (one building supply...)...thanks much for your wisdom....john
Newspaper is it. Treated with borate to retard fire & bugs.
Since Wallyworld changed from blue bags it's not as colorful though.
Denspack is the process of blowing it in dense enough so there's no settling. The loose stuff in the attic settles to the finished R value depth after awhile, you don't want that happening in your walls.
You need to find an insulation installer who knows what you're talking about and quiz him.
Joe H
i always thought dave thomas in alaska has a pretty good fundamental in insulating buildings specifically for alaska..
wonder what happened to him ?
jinalaska:
you have a very harsh climate...... a mooney wall will give you a real r-18.. but i'm not sure that would be a good enough design standard for you
we are looking at about 6000 Degree Days here, with a typical low of Zero deg.
but even in our coldest months.. we're probably getting an average of 20 deg overnight lows
the mooney wall is great for our needs... you may need more Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Finally pulled last weekend's mesh pics off the camera. Something I really liked about the mesh was that it held staples really well. I could pop one or two staples in one end of the 12-14' piece and then draw it tight to the far side.
View Image
I hadn't realized how cockeyed I had the mesh on the west wall of br3 until I went to glue it. You can see the ripples in this pic. There were several bubbles to fix there. I should have just spent a few more mins getting it straight in the first place.
View Image
View Image
A dreaded bubble.
View Image
And what it is supposed to look like (without bubbles)
View Imagejt8
"The flower that follows the sun does so even on cloudy days."--Robert Leighton
looks good.. when are you going to blow?
we're gonna blow on the first rain day .. maybe tomorrow Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
This may have been already answered but, how do you feel about Regal's stance against vapor barriers used with their "Regal Wall"?
i agree .. no vapor barrier with dens-pak.. no air movement thru the wall
seasonal drying to inside and out..... no condensation dew point ( no condensing fibers )
if you have a moisture problem in a cellulose wall, it is not because of a lack of a vapor barrierMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I am thinking of using dense packing in my shop, 34 x 48 arch rafter barn with loft at floor at 12 ft. and peak at approx. 26 ft. Rafters are 4 1/2" deep and 24" o/c I would blow in two stages, from bottom to loft flor and then up from there.There is nobody doing dense pack around here, so I be one first to use. We can see -40C in winter and +40C in summer ( Manitoba ) No vapor barrier goes against everything R2000 and energy guides say. I have done some attics w/ cellouse. What happens if you put vapor barrier over the insulmesh after the dense pack ?? Dew points change or is the glue on the insulmesh acting as a vapor barrier, and you get 2 vapor barriers ( a NO NO ). Thanks
IF IT WAS EASY, EVERYONE COULD DO IT!!
the insulweb is zero in terms of vapor or air barrier.. it's purpose is to trap the cellulose while allowing the air to escape
cellulose is hydroscopic... if you have moisture in the air .. the moisture will try to move from wet to dry ( in the winter that is from in-to-out )
the cellulose is extremely distributive in those conditions.... it wil be uniformly absorptive
when the conditions change it will give up it's moisture.. drying to the inside as well as the outside
with a vapor barrier.. there will be places where it is not a good vapor barrier and the moisture will attempt to breach the envelope at those points.. so the cellulose will not be uniformly absorptive..
this is what i have gleaned from 30 years or so of studying insulation.. i am by no means an expert.. but i have installed a lot of fiberglass insulation.. a lot of sheet foam insulation.... a lot of 6 mil vapor barriers with attention to detail..
i agree with the industry.... with cellulose... no vapor barrier
have you heard of the Air Tight Drywall system ( sic ??? ).. Gene Leger is one of the proponents of that system... as well as other people.. the gist of it is.. if there is no air movement.. the moisture movement is nil... and you build a system that allows drying to both interior and exterior
google on "Airtight Drywall Approach" and start reading..
they really don't like poly vapor barriers as a solution..
look for key phrases like "diffusion".."moisture flow"..
but read them all with a grain of salt ( or a drop of water )...
there are so many variables that can destroy a good system.... it's hard to be absolutely definitive about heating /cooling the envelope
me.... generall speaking i think there are two superior approaches.. one is foam insulatio ( treated for vermin ) .. the other is dens-pak cellulose....
but hey, whadda i no ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/15/2007 8:35 am ET by MikeSmith
I have to insulate the ceiling over a large 4 car garage with heated living space above. New construction. 2x10 rafters with strapping on 16" centers. Ceiling drywall not up yet. Will stapled and glued insulweb on the 1x3 strapping hold up the cellulose without pillowing down and making it tough to get the ceiling drywall up?
Other approaches would be:
1 to hang the ceiling drywall, cut holes, denspack from below through the drywall holes, repair drywall holes, or,
2) Drill lotsa holes in the subfloor above, fill from above.What is the easiest?
maggie ... where do you live ?
in our area.. with living space over a garage & 2x10's
we would tack 1" EPS foam to the bottom of the joists.. then we would furr the ceiling with 1x3 @ 16" oc
we would blow dens-pak cells into the 9 1/4" joist bays..... that would give you a nominal R-40..
probably a system r-value of about R-35
the insulweb alone will not supprt 9" of dens-pak... you need the furring in addition
we are going to blow a garage tomorrow with the 2x10 , insulweb & furring ( no EPS ... it is not living space above... just a work room )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
The building is in central NH, where it gets plenty cold--was about -20F last week. Somehow the 1x3 strapping went up on the garage ceiling without the Insulmesh above it. I was hoping to put up the Insulmesh on the strapping with staples and glue. But it looks like the easiest option is to take down the strapping, put up the mesh and then put back the strapping.
The building is an airplane hangar on a small private strip in NH. It is about 48'x48', with a small apartment above. The most unusual feature is the hydraulic door which opens up almost an entire wall. The door is 40x12 and weighs over 4,000 pounds. Scares me every time I put it up!
maggie.. you could also go ahead and sheetrock the ceiling ( no insulmesh )
and leave out two foot - four foot section so you can get the insulation hose down the joist bay..
the only thing the insulmesh is doing is holding up the cells. the sheetrock can do thatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike. I have hear and read about the air tight drywall. I was R2000 builder and have taken courses & done many energy saving retrofits . There just isn't any dense pak used around my area, so I wanted to get some first hand experience. I like cellouse an want to try this system for my own shop. I like trying new techiques and systems. Got to think out side the 'Box' . We 'up north' are sometimes behind in using diffrent types of building systems. ( Less people = Less construction = Less inovations )
IF IT WAS EASY, EVERYONE COULD DO IT !!!
there's a nice Krendle insulation blower on Ebay....
i think it's in Pennsylvannia.... needs a blower motor.. but that should be easy to come byMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
looks good.. when are you going to blow?
Blow is still a ways down the road. The roof is holding up that part of the show. Until the roof gets done, I'm not going to start insulating. jt8
"The flower that follows the sun does so even on cloudy days."--Robert Leighton
Hey man, looking good!
I'll hopefully finish mine up today and roll on the glue.
Laying the fabric on is nice - got a Book on Tape, chilled out , and cut and stapled - no construction site noise!
Forrest
Do you have any special technique you'd like to share with us on how you installed the Insulweb on those surfaces? Looks like they could have been tricky.
View Imagejt8
"The flower that follows the sun does so even on cloudy days."--Robert Leighton
I used the 4' wide roll, since I'm by myself. My strapping is 16" OC. I start stapling along the top of each full length (horizontal) piece, lining up the top edge of the fabric with the middle of the 4th row of strapping - do this all the way across; leaving a "curtain" hanging down. Then start in the middle of the bottom, moving both left and then right, pulling down and diagonally to tighten the fabric.
Then go back to the top, rip out and re-staple any puckers - then the field.
Next, go up 4 more rows of strapping.
I used right at 4000 staples for these three rooms yesterday and today. I used my little JT-21 narrow crown stapler, with 5/16" staples. Easier on the forearm than a T-50!
Forrest - learning to do this
if the ceiling is getting furred, we usually put the insulmesh up before we furr, then if it bulges we have 3/4" of grace before it's a problem... also ... we don't glue the mesh on a furred ceiling.. only on the walls
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Whooeee! Did the glue spreading last PM (Sunday, even)
Elmer's white was definitely better - much less viscous. HD was out for the first gallon, used yellow, kinda sticky, but when I went back they had white in stock. tried some old yellow glue from the shop; so sticky it tore up the roller quickly.
Took three gallons to do the three rooms with a 3" foam roller
Forrest
The roof is delaying the webbing somewhat. I'm putting plastic on the ceilings, but don't want to put the rest of the plastic up until I get the insulation dams in place between the rafters... but don't want to put the damns in until the roof is done. The ceiling plastic overlaps onto the top of the wall and top layer or two of blocking goes on top of that.
So no roof means no plastic. No plastic means no blocking. No blocking means no insulweb. No insulweb means no glue. No glue means no insulation. No insulation means no drywall. No drywall means no paint. No ... oh, you get the idea...jt8
"The flower that follows the sun does so even on cloudy days."--Robert Leighton
Sounds exciting! Got my insulmesh to go up this week. I meet with the insul guy tomorrow; He'll spray JM Spider in next Monday, I hope.
Forrest
Umm - and another great thing about the Mooney Wall?
Uh - when it gets hot, and you have a lot of InsulWeb left over, you can shade your lettuces.
View Image
Forrest - doin' the adaptive reuse thing
Edited 4/22/2007 5:05 pm by McDesign
Its never a dull moment with you is it?
BTW, awhile back you gave a Amazon link to the laser level you use...do you still have it handy?
Love your work. I just passed on a maintenance job at Fort Gordon over in Augusta; might think about reconsidering. Sure miss being south of the Mason Dixon.
Thanks
Ernie
Thanks!
This one -
http://www.amazon.com/Stabila-04100-Manual-Leveling-Rotating/dp/B00005V5NL/ref=sr_1_4/002-6238805-5747204?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1177298499&sr=1-4
Forrest
Thats the one..Thanks!
JT8,
How about an update?
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
The long-winded explaination: Concrete guy has had me delayed for about 2.5 months now. No porch means no porch roof. No porch roof means no re-roof. Since the sheathing will be replaced in places, I'm waiting to put the attic insulation dams in until the roof is done. With such a low angle roof, it is easier to install the dams from below, so I haven't been able to put plastic on the first floor ceilings in about half the house.
The ceiling plastic overlaps onto the walls and I've been sealing it to the top plates (Vulkem 116) and then putting the top two courses of mooney-blocking overtop of it. So without the plastic, there is no top two courses of blocking...which means no fabric which means no insulation.
I could go ahead and blow the insulation on the north side of the house, but I'm just waiting until I can do all the walls at once. I've had 1001 small, misc things to take care of, so the delay hasn't been all bad, but for the last 3 weeks or so, it has started to get annoying. IL only has about 3-4 good weeks all year long (when it isn't too hot or too cold) and I hate to lose half of those good weeks working on minor things that could be taken care of later.
Hopefully it will stop raining long enough this week to get 'er poured. This will be my first experience with stamped/stained crete. The guy had the best looking samples at the home show, so hopefully it will be worth the wait, but seems like a lot of hassle for a 7x15' porch.
So no new Mooney pics, but how about a couple porch ones? The old concrete porch had sunk about 4". When crete dude removed it, we discovered that someone had tried to correct the sinking at some point in the past by re-pouring a new porch on top of an old. The result was a porch slab over a foot thick. Next to the Bobcat wheel you can see a full-thickness piece.
The 'sand' pic shows it as it stands (as of Sunday). The new porch won't be a foot thick, but will have footers below the frost line. The third pic shows a footer resident. He/she better move on prior to the pour or he/she will become an artifact.jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
So who toad you had to wait?
jt8,You may have mentioned it earlier but what type are the existing windows? Theyt look like casements. If you are buying the concrete, ask you salesman for a good finisher. He probably has have a dozen that would love a small job like your your porch.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
You may have mentioned it earlier but what type are the existing windows? Theyt look like casements. If you are buying the concrete, ask you salesman for a good finisher. He probably has have a dozen that would love a small job like your your porch.
The windows are Pella casements. Original (so 30 years old). I would kinda like to replace a couple of them... but if I started replacing them, I might be tempted to just go with 2wide double-hungs instead of 3-casements. And once I started doing that, I'd be stuck replacing all of them (and there ain't no budget for that).
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow