The Mysterious Red Circle
JourneymanCarpenterT
| Posted in Tools for Home Building on
Most of us know that the diamond found on a tape measure every 19.2″ is for laying out TGI’s, and if you didn’t, you do now. What, though, of the mysterious red circle found at just over 6-1/2″ on Craftsman’s tape?
Because it’s not exactly centered on a fractional increment but closer to 6-1/2″+ or 6-17/32″, my first guess is that it represents a decimal. Is this also something for TGI’s? TGI’s aren’t used a lot in my location, so perhaps someone who has more experience with them could answer this question. It seems to represent about 1/3 of 19.2. If it is for TGI’s; what specificaly? If not for TGI’s, what then?
–T
Edited 10/18/2007 9:28 pm by JourneymanCarpenterT
Replies
Just a wild guess
If the 19.2" is the biblical cubit( elbow ), then could this one be a span? ( hand)
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
rez:
"You're making me want to rummage thru the stash of old tools hoping there might be a Craftman's tape somewhere in there."
I'm not absolutely sure, but I don't remember them being on the old tapes. You can always check it out next time you're in Sears though.
Luka:
"The diamond was at 19.2 inches on tape and stick measures, long before tgi's . . ."
Very interesting, what was it used for back then?
JTC1:
"My span tables show 19.2 for conventional framing - 'taint just for TJI's."
I've seen a lot of conventional framing, but never anything at a 19.2" layout. I would be very interested as to what your conventional span tables say they're for. Also, have you ever seen this layout in conventional framing?
"I assume the circles repeat for the length of the tape."
No.
"Go to Craftsman website and ask???"
I mailed them a letter a few years ago, but received no response.
jimblodgett:
"19ft 2in seems like quite a span to me, even for tji's."
LOL . . . That's 19.2 INCHES, but considering your credentials I'm guessing you knew that. You have a strange sense of humor.
JDRH1:
"Really?!
Cause they been makin' tapes with black diamonds at 19.2" for a whole lot longer than they have TGIs."
Believe it or not, that is its common use today. It is interesting to know that it's been their before though. If you know what it was used for then, I'd like to hear about it.
Jim Allen:
"My Stanly has two mysterious red circles too. One is at the 3 and one is near the 4. They have a very crptic R encircled."
Please don't insult my intelligence; I'm perfectly capable of telling the difference between measuring increments and legal notifications. My standard tape is a Stanley, PowerLock 2 - the best tape measure on the market as far as I'm concerned. Your encircled red "R" at the 3 follows the registered trademark "STANLEY," and your encircled red "R" near the 4 follows the registered trade mark "Life Guard." There is no "R" in the red circle I'm referring to and it doesn't follow a name. It's just a solid red circle that's been placed in a very deliberate way on every Craftsman tape since 1999.
"Should I start looking for black helicopters?"
What? I don't find your sarcasm amusing. You're reminding me of the one guy that always tells me I'm driving the nail in the wrong way when I'm blunting the point to avoid splinting. The sad thing is, whoever that guy is, he's always serious.
diesilpig:
"Can I use the 19.2" marking for laying out my TJI's too..... or is it only for TGI's?"
Well, seeing as how you have apparently installed TJI's and I haven't, and seeing as how you specialize in framing, I'm guessing you can answer that question better than I can.
I googled "TJI framing," and I see that such a product does in fact exist. I googled "TGI framing" as well, and apparently I didn't spell it wrong, those exist also. Does anybody know what the difference is between a TJI and a TGI anyway?
Diesilpig, Have you used the diamond increments for anything besides engineered lumber?
Piffin:
"Just a wild guess
If the 19.2" is the biblical cubit( elbow ), then could this one be a span? ( hand)"
That's an incredibly interesting guess. I'll have to look into that.-T
Just for grins - devide 8' (96")by five and you'll figure out why 19.2 is important.
Had a craftsman tape on me earlier when I first saw this thred, mine has it too.
At this point I'm wondering if it has more to do with the printing/ graffics?
In my code book 19.2 spacing is in there for floor joists and rafters with no mention of "tgi's"Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Where to start?
First of all it is TJI for Truss Joist International, the originator of the I-joist design. The acronym has come to be used for all brands of engineered I joists, just like all facial tissues are called kleenex. TGI is a misinterpretation of T-J-I. Sure, you found it on the web, other people don't know it's wrong either.
You were being chided for a spelling error, we didn't realize you actually thought they were TGIs. We also didn't know you had broken your funny bone.
19.2" is just another way of laying out any framing members to allow for 4' and 8' sheet goods and has been around longer than I joists. There is no direct connection between them.
I, for one, will never make the mistake of assuming that you have a sense of humor and an open mind.
"19.2" is just another way of laying out any framing members to allow for 4' and 8' sheet goods and has been around longer than I joists. There is no direct connection between them."
Thanks for the info, but . . .
"I, for one, will never make the mistake of assuming that you have a sense of humor and an open mind."
Lighten up dude.-T
It's Friday kid..... chill baby. :)
As others have stated, 19.2" is simply another layout increment like 12" OC, 16" OC, 24" OC, etc. It's been a measurement standard longer than you and I have been sucking wind.... combined. Granted..... it's popularity seems to have waxed and waned over the years. With our modern "nominal thickness lumber" 16" OC seems to have had it's reign as King of the Layouts for quite a while. Thicker rough sawn lumber (as well as the lower building standards of the past) allowed for greater spacing between framing members. Now that I-joists are becoming more and more common place, their greater allowable spans and spacing has brought 19.2" spacing back into framing chic if you will.
Have a look through most any residential code book and find the span charts and you will more than likely see 19.2" spacing nestled right in between good old 16" and 24".
Now.... as far as your (very common) mistake in the abbreviation...... (TGI)..... well.... I was just having some fun with you. Don't take it personally.View Image
I was having a little fun too....till he ruined it by being such a pissazz. He probably is really a plumber and he coudn't find any microlams to chop up today.
fka (formerly known as) blue
LOL..... so it's not just the plumbers in my area that are grumpy, huh? View Image
If he's a plumber than he needs this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruFp4Tj3RjUMartin
I wasn't taking it personally, I just really didn't know. Thanks for the clarification.-T
You guys need to discuss something less controversial, like global warming.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
FYI
19.2 will not layout 4'Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
You're right. I meant for 4' x 8'.
SURE it will!!!19.2" X 2½ =4'.
.
.
.
.
.
I have Transcended the need for Pants....oooohhhhmmmmmm......
What's the square root of that?Loren Wallace for president.
Your momma thinks square roots are vegatables....
.
.
.
.
.
I have Transcended the need for Pants....oooohhhhmmmmmm......
Square vegetables would stack easier.
(whoooeeee, the Bosox busted out the whoopin' sticks tonight, huh?)Loren Wallace for president.
Yeah, but round vegetables are easier to roll across the floor to the dog.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Or hurl at umpires!Loren Wallace for president.
When I feel the need to hurl, I don't think the shape of the vegetable is much of a factor.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
That slam couldn't have happened to a better guy.with all the problems JD has had this year on and off the field he deserves some redemption!!and Dusty finally found the holes...I really thought that C. C. and Carmona would a night-mare for the sox...Now if Dice-K can earn a little more of that 100 mill....They best be putting in Beckett at the first signs of him faultering...no second chances now!!.
.
.
.
.
.
I have Transcended the need for Pants....oooohhhhmmmmmm......
I think you missed about half the jokes in this thread, but I;ll give you two points for catching jim's. I was kidding about the biblical 'span'
if this red circle is a layout mark of any kind it would repeat all the way up the tape.
What is more likley is that it is a secret mark for whether they honour the lifetime warantee or not. LOLIt is true the 19.2" layout has been around for a long long time. I have worked on houses older than a hundred years here framed to that frame layout.Any place on the web that uses the term TGI is making the same error you have. TJI is the term from the original manufacturer, Truss Joist International. The error is very common. I have even seen it on archy specs and notes and pointed it out to them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<Any place on the web that uses the term TGI is making the same error you have. TJI is the term from the original manufacturer, Truss Joist International. The error is very common. I have even seen it on archy specs and notes and pointed it out to them.>>Sort of the "nucular" of carpentry, don't ya know?I have seen TGI in print so many times that I actually thought it was the mark of a competitor to Truss Joist Int'l.Bill
Are you really a journeyman carpenter? If you are, are you one of those grumpy old guys that are pissed off first thing in the morning?
You're sounding like one.
Have a good day and watch out for those black helicopters.
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
"I was having a little fun too...."<!----><!----><!---->
I'm breaking my 1 apology a year rule, but under the circumstances, sorry about the previous post. As others have already pointed out, I not very good at catching jokes.<!----><!---->
This one's not a joke: When I was younger I used to laugh at everything someone said in a comical tone just to be polite, even though I didn't understand it. I stopped doing that after I realized a lot of those jokes were of poor taste and everyone ells besides the jokester would give me the evil eye. Although I've gotten better at getting jokes - I know it's hard to believe I could be any worse - Because there's no tone of voice in print, I have an even harder time on the internet.<!----><!---->
As ridiculous as my thread has turned out to be, I'm still glad I posted it. I learned a lot from you guys this time around, and I'm honored to be able to converse with you. I've asked a lot of people these questions, and no one off-line was able to come up with the responses here online.<!----><!---->-T
Your apology is more than accepted Journeyman. I myself miss a lot of the nuances involved in online conversation and I always feels rather sheepish when I figure out what the real deal is.
No harm, no foul, keep up the conversation. I hope you feel liberated breaking into the "more than one apology per year" group. I think I figured out that I had to join that group about 20 years ago...buy also 20 years late!
We' git you agin'!
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
Oh! I forgot to mention that when I don't have a clue about the real answer, I resort to bad jokes if I want to continue on and see more of a thread. In this case, I don't have a clue and couldn't think of any intelligent guess. I was hoping that someone would give a sensible answer.
If I don't post in the thread, there won't be a little picture of a thumb next to the topic and I'll forget that I was interested in it.
I have my systems...they aren't smart, but they work for me.
Carry on and watch out for flying saucers too. :)
fka (formerly known as) blue
You are who you are - very literal .Embrace it. Nothing wrong with you - just a bit different. you might find that you are better suited to being a legal beagle or a govt inspector than a contractor. Make the most of who and what you are.
But know yourself first.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've got a 25 year old craftsman tape measure that I checked today. No red mark, but it is a metric/imperial combo (which is why I never use it) from Canada.
>>I would be very interested as to what your conventional span tables say they're for.<<
Roof rafters, floor joists and ceiling joists -- the same applications as one now, sometimes, find TJI's employed. The tables show maximum spans for 12", 16", 19.2" and 24" centers.
>>Also, have you ever seen this layout in conventional framing?<<
Yes, but only in a roof rafter application (existing). I have used 19.2" conventional framing on a few porch floors, just because it worked out better for the overall dimension of the porch.
If the red circles do not repeat for the length of the tape - I have doubts that they are a unit of measure.
Incidently, there are LPI's also -- they are I-joists manufactured by Louisianna Pacific, more suppliers here stock them than TJI's - probably lower shipping costs.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited 10/20/2007 9:17 am ET by JTC1
Edited 10/20/2007 9:24 am ET by JTC1
"there are LPI's also"There are several regional manufacturers now since the TJI went off patent a few years ago
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've worked in some houses here, both old and new, framed with the wall studs on 19.2" layout. Though it is probably a more common layout for floor joists.
Did you cut yourself or have a bloody nose recently?
You're making me want to rummage thru the stash of old tools hoping there might be a Craftman's tape somewhere in there.
The diamond was at 19.2 inches on tape and stick measures, long before tgi's were some engineer's wet dream.
The red circle I have no idea about. Never seen one.
Do you think an engineer actually had a wet dream over TGIs?
I mean....I love what I do....but never to that extent.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
JDRHI, Then why you are in here reading building #### . OK edit. It started with a P , has an O then an R then a N. They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Edited 10/19/2007 11:55 am by dovetail97128
Based on my experience, that is the exact location that the Stanley Fat Max tape measure will crack leaving you with a solid 6" tape measure and a plastic box with 34.5 feet of garbage.
Bruce
Edited 10/19/2007 7:20 am by Hiker
All my tapes have black diamonds for 19.2" centers, my span tables show 19.2 for conventional framing - 'taint just for TJI's.
None of my tapes have red circles. One has a copyright symbol at about that location - but it only appears once on the tape.
I assume the circles repeat for the length of the tape.
Go to Craftsman website and ask??? Play baffle the techie.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
19ft 2in seems like quite a span to me, even for tji's.
I always thought the red circle was the bull's eye. No?Loren Wallace for president.
Most of us know that the diamond found on a tape measure every 19.2" is for laying out TGI's, and if you didn't, you do now.
Really?!
Cause they been makin' tapes with black diamonds at 19.2" for a whole lot longer than they have TGIs.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
My Stanly has two mysterious red circles too. One is at the 3 and one is near the 4. They have a very crptic R encircled.
Should I start looking for black helicopters?
jim
fka (formerly known as) blue
Can I use the 19.2" marking for laying out my TJI's too..... or is it only for TGI's?
On Friday.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
My tape has numbers, I still don't know what those are for.
What's this tape thing y'all is talkin' 'bout?
I use my eyeball, and I see plenty of spots, yer saying they mean sumpin?
If you've been pulling your eye out to make measurements, and letting it reel back in with a snap... Well, that WOULD explain why you are seeing spots.It would also explain your drawing talent...
Yeh... That'll work.
Well, if you ever figure them out then we'll explain that bubble in your level.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
[Fair warning, this is a joke, I will insert a smilely :) at the end it indicate this.]
If you view the red dot under an electron microscope you will see it is simply the Kmart logo, only really really small and it kind of blurs it out. :)
TFB (Bill)
Now I am going to go try the search and see how to display the attached image in the post. Thats another topic that has been around the horn a few times.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=93814.1-T
ThanksTFB (Bill)
You mean like this?
View Image
Sorry, don't know how you do it.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader