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THE NO HEATING SYSTEM SWEDISH HOUSES.

| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on March 18, 2002 12:46pm

*
The 20-unit multifamily project was completed in March 2001. The units are so well insulated:R-57 exterior walls, R-71 roofs, R-63 floors and U 0.15 triple-glazed, krypton filled windows,(air leakage 0.4ach @ 50 Pa) that heat from appliances, occupants and lighting is enough to keep the houses warm even with several weeks of cloudy weather.

For more information visit www.ebd.lth.se/click on Research, or www.goteborg2050.nu. GeneL

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  1. Gabe_Martel | Mar 02, 2002 12:33am | #1

    *
    Must be awful if you were to fart in one of these super insulated sealed test tubes.

    Gabe

    1. FredL | Mar 02, 2002 01:05am | #2

      *Dear Gene,I had hoped that our paths would cross here. Lost your contact info in a computer change over. How has the winter kept you old friend? Thanks for the fine link. After digesting it, I would like to discuss this project at length to get your views.I'm learning, you know. At least it no longer surprises me to see you come up with these gems. You always see the whole scene.Ever, Fred

      1. eddie | Mar 02, 2002 02:28am | #3

        *Gabe, me thinks you hit the nail on the head. your 'perception' is another reason to have a 'breathing' house. when it comes to releasing toxins, you can't beat man.good luck

        1. Gabe_Martel | Mar 02, 2002 03:05am | #4

          *You know Eddie, mankind has used some type of wood construction for thousands of years and every expert thinks he has invented the wheel all over again.We build houses with R20 walls, R40 roofs and R4 windows.We fill the newest thermal panes with every conceivable gas, double pane and triple panes and we still have R1 frames holding the high tech thermals in place.Regardless of the construction method you use, care and quality of fit will do a much better job of ensuring comfort and security for generations to come than any of the "new" systems being sold on today's market.Good luck with your new home,Gabe

          1. jon_ledebuhr | Mar 02, 2002 05:27am | #5

            *that must cost a fortune to build a house that tight. thoes windows would still be the "week link" in the system. Even at U=.15 they would be very expensive. even a house that tight would still "leak" a little heat, and I dont think i would want not have a heating system.

          2. Paul_Zind | Mar 02, 2002 06:16am | #6

            *This sounds like the Titanic of housing. If it sounds too good to be true....

          3. Tim_Kline | Mar 02, 2002 06:53am | #7

            *b that must cost a fortune to build a house that tight.Really ? Why ? I don't see why it would take any more than building an extra wall inside your exterior walls and filling the cavity with dense pak cellulose. That takes care of your R-Value and your air infiltration in one shot. And your heating costs. Forever. How about building an 8000 sq. ft. Mcmansion and insulating it to R-19 ? Now that's expensive. Those windows that may seem like the weak link could also provide serious solar gain when properly placed.I know I'd rather drop a fart in my R-57/R-71 home and have it sucked out and refreshed by an HRV system that I can control than to wait for my leaky windows to provide me with a little fresh air.

          4. Gene_Leger_ | Mar 04, 2002 12:40am | #8

            *Gabe, Eddie, why assume that the designers of these and similar houses gave no thought to indoor air quality? All of the 20 houses are equipped with a HRV. The framing is all wood. Paul. These houses exist in Lindas(put an umlaut over the a), Sweden, are all occupied and monitored for performance. Even at 4 below zero F some of the houses had indoor temperatures between 25-30 degrees C(77-86 DegreesF). The lowest recorded temparature in one of the houses was 63 degrees F. Gabe the U0.15 factor is for the whole window, not just the center of glass. And by the bye, Gabe. The first Leger House is 25 years old, has had no oisture problems, no rotting, no ice dams. For those who are interested you cna contact the architect, Hans Eek at [email protected]. The added cost for insulation, high performance windows, HRV. highnefficiency appliances and solar thermal ssystem was about $7500. 0 dollars. Subtract theo cost of no heating system $4500.00 and your added cost is about $3500.00. FREDL. I can't tell you how pleased I am to once again see your posting. We are surving the winter such as it is and has been. I'd be delighted to discuss these houses further and show you my new wall. I'm still in Nashua, New Hampshire. Keep in touch. GeneL.

          5. Martin_Holladay | Mar 04, 2002 11:14pm | #9

            *I'm glad to see Gene is sharing the information on the Lindas houses in Sweden. His information comes from an article in the February 2002 issue of Energy Design Update. Anyone curious for more information should check out EDU.Martin Holladay, editor at EDU

          6. Joe_Hennessey | Mar 05, 2002 01:19am | #10

            *Gene, how about posting a "New wall" for all? And what kind of heating system did they delete for $4500? What sort of annual fuel costs would they expect? I know gasoline is taxed to death there, are heating fuels in the same $4 gallon range? Joe H

          7. Gene_Leger_ | Mar 06, 2002 07:24pm | #11

            *Joe. Your idea is a good one and I'd like to oblige. I'd have to use a lot of copy righted material. I suggest you e-mail Martin Holladay, editor of Energy Design Update(where the article appeared) [email protected] and ask him to post more information. For details on the wall used in these houses contact the architect Hans Eek, [email protected]. He speaks english. Hope this helps. GeneL

          8. Jesse_Lackman | Mar 06, 2002 10:46pm | #12

            *Hey Gabe, you need to keep up on technology! >>>>>> http://www.under-tec.com/ <<<<<<BTW we love our triple pane Thermotech windows out of Canada. Fiberglass frames with foam in the frame, warm edge spacers. Better than any we could find in the US.http://www.thermotechwindows.com/Jesse

          9. Paul_Zind | Mar 07, 2002 06:27am | #13

            *JesseFunny you mention the thermotechwindows. I checked them out here in Ottawa earlier this summer when I was shopping for replacement double hung.The sales rep was so unhelpful that I never even got the chance to see the fiberglass windows. All he wanted to show me were vinyl. He told me the fiberglass would be too expensive for me. What is the point of a good product and lousy people behind it. I settled with Marvins, and both the people I dealt with and the products were great!Paul

          10. Jesse_Lackman | Mar 07, 2002 07:49am | #14

            *Expensive? I thought they were very reasonable. In fact more reasonably priced than Anderson and locally manufactured vinyl brands. We got 24 windows, 5 exterior doors, one double door (french door) all for around 14,000 US delivered. Guys I knew from here spent 10,000 for half the windows (Anderson) and half the window technology. We dealt directly with the factory, actually with Stephen Thwaites the engineer or tech director or whatever. They had no US distributers at the time (1999). I would buy Thermotechs again.

          11. Gene_Leger_ | Mar 07, 2002 06:54pm | #15

            *Jesse. What is the whole window R-value of your windows? GeneL.

          12. nigel_martin | Mar 07, 2002 11:37pm | #16

            *This house is the way to go, everyone of you hates to pay the heating/cooling bill so why not do away with it? All these "payback" calcs. make me smile you know how unstable fuel costs can be.

          13. FredL | Mar 08, 2002 02:44am | #17

            *Dear Gene,I was disturbed to see that the Swedes had considered "preheating" the HRV intake with a ground duct. Thought that idea was very dead. Do you know if they have revived it?Ever, Fred

          14. Jesse_Lackman | Mar 08, 2002 03:43am | #18

            *I wonder if Andy would let Gabe back on the board if he wore those under-tecs on his head (or fingers?) Ha! Oh, Thermotec Windows, first read this paper by Stephen Thwaites; Low E is NOT created EqualHere is a little from it;"If you had the choice between two windows that were exactly the same except one had a slightly higher R-value glass than the other, which one would you pick to lower your heating bill? And yes they are the same price.If you picked the higher R-value window you could be wrong. Wrong to the tune of many hundreds of dollars over the life of the windows. The answer is not always the higher R-value window. Why?"Very interesting.ThermoTech's Fibertherm Fixed window performance ratings.ThermoTech's Fibertherm casement window performance ratings.Most of our windows are fixed. We have a few operating casements for ventilation. We chose the 322 (LOF, #3 #5) glass. Notice the LOF low E coating has a higher SHGC (solar heat gain coefficient) but also a higher U-value than the Cardinal EE. But look at the ER rating for both. In a northern climate the 322 LOF will be the more energy efficient glass, (if the sun shines) because of figuring the solar heat gain into the window's ER rating. The ER rating is a real world rating of window performance. Again a quote form Stephen's paper;"The Canadian Energy Rating (ER) is the only one number system that permits comparison of energy efficiency because it accounts for all the R-value losses as well as the solar gains."We live in North Dakota which you may have heard is even farther north than Canada.Gene I have a book with your first house in it. I've had that book for over 20 years! Now you know why I'm so wacko!We are still not done with our house but should be this summer.Jesse

          15. FredL | Mar 08, 2002 03:46am | #19

            *Dear Gene,I was disturbed to see that the Swedes had considered "preheating" the HRV intake with a ground duct. Thought that idea was very dead. Do you know if they have revived it?Ever, Fred

          16. Martin_Holladay | Mar 08, 2002 04:02pm | #20

            *Fred,I'm curious about the source of your information that Hans Eek in Sweden considered "preheating" HRV intake air via a ground duct. Unless my memory is failing me prematurely, which is entirely possible, I never heard Hans mention that possibility, either in telephone conversations or e-mail, nor did I read about it in any of his writings.Martin Holladay, EDU editor

          17. FredL | Mar 08, 2002 04:29pm | #21

            *Dear Martin,It's good to meet you. I was acquainted with Ned N. and I hope we have more opportunities to discuss energy matters. The ground duct was mentioned obtusely on the website. That's all I know. Generally speaking, have you heard anything positive at all about this strategy?With my regards, Fred

          18. Jesse_Lackman | Mar 08, 2002 07:10pm | #22

            *Paul, one reason Thermotech might have steered you away from the Fibertherm is it is not offered in double hung. Stephen considers the double hung design to be inferior to the casement design.Double Hung inherently flawed. Information on the Canadian Energy Rating (ER) SystemThermotech's FiberthermTM Edge: Energy Rating Advantage View ImageOne could actually optimize the windows considering their orientation in the house. North facing windows could have the Cardinal EE which has lower SHGC but also a lower U-value. (In the northern hemisphere where the sun never shines from the north.) I brought this up to Stephen but it was not recommended. I don't remember why. Notice on the chart the ER goes up when the window faces south, and goes down when it faces north. The chart doesn't show the differences (in ER ratings) between different types of low e coatings. (Thermal Performance various glass/low e combinations)Here is Thermotech's main Fibertherm window page. I don't think you can find it easily on their main site.Fibertherm Windows (Fiberglass Frames)Jesse

          19. Gene_Leger_ | Mar 08, 2002 07:14pm | #23

            *FredL. Always good hearing from you. Unfortunately, I have no information on the preheating issue. Jesse. I have had a copy(for 22 ywars) of William Shurcliff's 1980 book, Superinsulated Houses and Double-Envelope Houses. It contains lots of information on my first Leger House. GeneL.

          20. Jesse_Lackman | Mar 08, 2002 07:21pm | #24

            *Gene, That's the book I have too! Our current house has double wall construction.Hope you can make some sense out of all that window info.Jesse

          21. Martin_Holladay | Mar 08, 2002 09:01pm | #25

            *Fred,As far as I know, the consensus on earth tubes is still the same: they don't work well, certainly not enough to justify the installation costs, due to two problems: condensation, which can encourage mold growth, and the fact that the soil around the tubes soon changes termperature to near the average air temperature, making any tempering effect temporary. By the way, we met briefly about ten years ago, when you bid on a weatherization job in St. Johnsbury for NCHC, a local nonprofit housing developer. As I remember, you lost the bid to NETO. I was the project manager for that rehab job.

          22. FredL | Mar 09, 2002 06:00am | #26

            *Dear Martin,That's amazing. It's coming back. A world away from St.J now aren't we. Actually, I was counting on that job to pay for the birth of my son. I knew it was a case of non-profit collusion. ::just kidding:: I went on to provide a Affordable Housing for the Wealthy (tm).Later, Fred

          23. Stanisa_Surbatovich | Mar 09, 2002 12:11pm | #27

            *But if you want a window that will not interfere with furniture placement inside or people outside when a wrap around porch is in place, and if you want to be able to have the full width of the window open, there is nothing that can match a double hung.I looked at the Thermotech weweb sitend Steven conceded that Thermotech will have to come up with a fiberglass double hung to meet consumer requests.Stan S

          24. LFred | Mar 09, 2002 04:03pm | #28

            *Typically, double hung thermal units will outlast the others.I will not recommend or install any window that cranks, period.

          25. Paul_Zind | Mar 11, 2002 03:54am | #29

            *Jesse:I never even managed to get to the type of windows I needed. I would have been receptive to single hungs.The sales rep was really only interested in selling me a vinyl window.It was late summer last year. Maybe with the construction boom they weren't interested in any small orders.At any rate, the Marvin's look really nice - and even if I end up paying more in heating bills - c'est la vie!I do need to purchase a few more windows... maybe I'll give them another try in the spring.Will let you know...Paul

          26. IanDGilham_ | Mar 11, 2002 07:57am | #30

            *Then how would you operate, say, a clerestorey window? -- or any window that is not easily accessible from the ground?Cranking systems have operated successfully in these and similar situations for years without problems.

          27. LFred | Mar 11, 2002 02:52pm | #31

            *Mr. Gilham1.Then how would you operate, say, a clerestorey window? -- or any window that is not easily accessible from the ground?Why would there be a need to operate them? We don't live in the 19th century. Besides all of our operating windows are european and are double hinged or two way operating. We just don't use a crank to open outward, they open inward.In our climate, cranking systems put undo pressure on the thermal units. The windows are always being forced and causes premature failure of the thermals.

          28. IanDGilham_ | Mar 11, 2002 06:49pm | #32

            *Why would there be a need to operate them?In certain cases, windows need to be opened -- even in the 21st century They have been necessary on several of the projects that I have managed -- some hand-cranked, some motor-driven, but all inaccessible by normal methods.The windows are always being forced and causes premature failure of the thermals.Then possibly you should consider better cranking systems.

          29. Mongo_ | Mar 11, 2002 07:58pm | #33

            *A good thread, Gene...thanks for posting it.

          30. LFred | Mar 11, 2002 09:04pm | #34

            *Mr. Gilham,Meaning no disrespect but where are you trying to go with this?1. You anwsered your own challenge by acknowledging that "in certain cases, window need to be opened". In other words, in certain cases, windows need not be openned.2. It's most commendable that you have found them necessary on several of the projects that you have managed. Housing rarely falls into that category.3. Better cranking is not the problem, but better window designs that allow for or better control of the fit/movement/weather/human-element aspects.Here at NRC/Canada we're responsible for testing sealed windows for a variety of conditions. The seals are equal in most cases but the window construction is the one thing that we do not test and yet it is the singular greatest cause of failures today.

          31. ed_hardwicke | Mar 12, 2002 02:54am | #35

            *yes no one calculates how long before the seal blows out. thats not considered in all the HYPE about energy savings. I think hurricanes also affect them - wind pressure and low pressure when storm goes thru.Personally i think the old style storms are better.

          32. IanDGilham_ | Mar 12, 2002 05:16am | #36

            *Meaning no disrespect but where are you trying to go with this?You condemned the crank system of window opening, a system that has been thoroughly tested for years all over the world, without a shred of evidence. I dislike advice given purely on the basis of prejudice -- let's have some facts to support your condemnation.

          33. LFred | Mar 12, 2002 02:23pm | #37

            *Mr. Gilham,Most window companies have at least 2 lines of products. One expensive line and a cheaper line that they carry.Do you know the difference between the two lines other than the price and a few bells and whistles?

          34. IanDGilham_ | Mar 12, 2002 09:42pm | #38

            *Gabe,In your typical fashion you have ignored a question you can't answer.Rather than ruin Mr Leger's post, perhaps you'd prefer to move the discussion to the Tavern?

          35. LFred | Mar 12, 2002 09:50pm | #39

            *I'll take that as a "I don't know" answer.The main difference between the cheap line and the expensive line is that the expensive line has the cost of 1 replacement factored into it's price.BTW think what you like, we're having a hoot.

          36. LFred | Mar 13, 2002 01:15am | #40

            *Mr. Gilham,I don't think I want to discuss this subject any further with you. You don't seem like the kind of person I would want to spend any time with in person. We don't talk about or attack people behind their backs around this neck of the woods. We find it cowardly.

          37. Jim_Pappas | Mar 13, 2002 07:57am | #41

            *I am planning casement windows in my new house. From what I understand, they are the tightest window when latched closed because the window presses firmly against the seal. The advantages/disadvantages that I see are as follows:Advantages:- tight seals- solid latching mechanism- interior screening stays out of weather resisting damage and staying clean.- ability to "catch" a light breeze for added ventilation- large unobscured glass (no crossbar as in double hung) for better viewing, or custom light patternsDisadvantages:- ability to get ripped off of the house if left open during a heavy wind- damage to wood interior if left in out swing position during rain- bugs caught between screen/window will "buzz" until dead or released.I am sure that I am missing some points, but these are the things that we have considered./Jim Pappas

          38. Tim_Rice | Mar 13, 2002 02:44pm | #42

            *Jim,Ever work around a house with open casements? Gotta watch your head. Having owned two older houses with casements, other disadvantages include (but I'm sure there are more):cranks that will wear out as they age,higher first cost andyou can't put a window ac in one.

          39. The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Mar 13, 2002 05:51pm | #43

            *I love casements.near the stream using all kinds of windows for whatever design element I desire to. I never had casement troubles other than cheap crank replacements which is as easy as changing a light bulb!near the stream,aj

          40. FredL | Mar 13, 2002 06:06pm | #44

            *And how many tennis court builders does it take to change a light bulb?Just hanging around, Fred

          41. LFred | Mar 13, 2002 06:08pm | #45

            *Another reason to not use casements, AJ likes them and uses them on his tennis courts.

          42. xMike_Smith | Mar 13, 2002 07:10pm | #46

            *we use lots of casements.. they have better energy ratings than any other style.. some of the casements from the 60's have punk mechanisms.. but they are all single glazed and should be replaced anyway... all the casements in our house are now 20 years old.. no sign of wear on the mechanisms.. another point.. anyone ever hear of lube ?white lithium grease does wonders for casment and awnig mechanisms....so.. DH for architectural style.. but casements for modern living....

          43. LFred | Mar 13, 2002 07:25pm | #47

            *Mr. Smith,Check out this link and lookup tilt and turn windows. This company builds both (casement and tilt and turn) but the owner has tilt and turn in his home.http://www.b-v-w.com/

          44. Mike_Smith | Mar 13, 2002 07:53pm | #48

            *lfred... i've been around tilt and turn since the '80's.. some of the upscale architects were touting them.. they were well built.. the problem is they are not supported.. so you have trouble with warranty issues.. and replacement parts... i'm not specing or installing anything like that except under duress.... i want a continual chain from my customer thru me to my supplier to the distributor to the mfr. with time -proven windows and time proven service and warranties..... i don't want the new kid on the block.. he ain't worht it to me or my content customers..... i've crossed some mfr's off my list over the yearsWeathershield will stay off forever.. Marvin had to scratch and gouge to get back on...in our area the best product and service and warranty is Andersen... in your area it might be something different.. but this is where the rubber meets the road.. and i need more than R-values to sell me...

          45. Jim_Pappas | Mar 13, 2002 08:48pm | #49

            *I like the idea of tilt and turn windows and the ones that we have seen have been well built. They seem very solid and I like the tilt-in for ventilation. The turn-in can play havoc in terms of furniture placement in some of our locations, which is the main reason we are going with casement instead.They have the advantage that they do not get wet if left open during a rainstorm. You lose the advantages of an internal screen, which I generally prefer over an external screen, especially in the dusty climate of central Oregon./Jim Pappas

          46. The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Mar 14, 2002 12:50am | #50

            *Right.

          47. LFred | Mar 14, 2002 01:25am | #51

            *Mike, Where do you get this nonsense that these windows/companies are new kids on the block?And where do you come up with "not supported"The specifications of these windows outperform ANYTHING on the market.Too bad your not open to the concept that there maybe something beneficial in these windows that you're missing on.Your loss

          48. xMike_Smith | Mar 14, 2002 06:48am | #52

            *lfred.. y wud i even want to sell them ?yur already doin it... tell u wat.. u sell yurs & i'll sell mine...bet i get a mfr's rep on my job with Andersen before u get urs with whatever euro yur pushin... hah, hah, hah...it's tough enough keepin the customers smilin without having to run interference for the window mfr....support this...

          49. LFred | Mar 14, 2002 02:34pm | #53

            *Sorry Mike, but none of us here are involved in selling a specific brand of windows to anyone. What we do do is buy them by the transport load and what we don't do is want to waste time on call backs.BTW, we don't have to call any reps, they call us.

          50. Mike_Smith | Mar 14, 2002 03:15pm | #54

            *good on you , lfred.. you just keep buying them by the transport load... i'll just keep selling the big 3 to my customers at the rate of 2 or 20 to the job...you work hard at being a jerk , don't you ?you should relax a little... have you thought of taking up golf ?

          51. LFred | Mar 14, 2002 04:06pm | #55

            *Golf,That's the game that grown men play where they hit the ball as hard as they can and spend the rest of the day looking for it?No thanks.

          52. Joe_Hennessey | Mar 14, 2002 05:21pm | #56

            *I get reps calling me too. Never thought of it as an "I'm so special" kinda thing though.......

          53. LFred | Mar 14, 2002 05:49pm | #57

            *Joe,You're absolutely right!They're a nuisance.

          54. Mike_Smith | Mar 14, 2002 07:19pm | #58

            *ok.. lfred... back to the relaxing... mebbe ice fishin

          55. LFred | Mar 14, 2002 07:33pm | #59

            *Not time to relax yet. I've got too many headaches at work lately.but thanks for asking. You know the drill brother

          56. Jesse_Lackman | Mar 15, 2002 09:24pm | #60

            *"The specifications of these windows outperform ANYTHING on the market."LFred, are you talking about ThermoTechs?

          57. LFred | Mar 18, 2002 12:46am | #61

            *Jesse,No, I'm referring to any of the tilt and turns presently being manufactured.

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