I classic thread from ‘over the fence’ from our orchard master. I thought it deserved to be dug up and put in a more active forum :
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| From: | David_Doud <!—-> <!—-> | 3/16/2002 9:17 am |
| To: | ALL |
I thought that some of you might be interested in propagating trees – these are apple, but the technique is exactly the same for pears – I find that some people are intimidated by the concept, but would assure anyone that the practice is very straight-forward and not particularly difficult – with apples and pears success rates are high – what follows is a synopsis of the system I’ve used to develope trees for my orchard –
jt8
Replies
Equipment - clockwise from upper left -
the ugly kettle
contains a 'V-8' can with wax in a water bath, I used to purchase the high dollar 'Trowbridge' wax, but they changed the formulation such that it's not worth the premium - now I just buy wax toilet rings at the local hardware for $1.29 - never melt wax directly over heat, always in a water bath -
rubber budding strips -
elastic strips that wrap and support the graft as it knits
hand clips
- I hope I don't have to explain them -
grafting knife and sharpening stone -
the knives are somewhat special in that they are beveled on only one side - they come in R&L hand versions - a sharp edge is essential to the process -
rootstock -
this particular one is M-9, a full dwarfing root -
scion -
a dormant stick of the variety that you want - hopefully to match the diameter of the rootstock -
Edited 10/24/2008 4:56 pm by JohnT8
From:
David_Doud <!----><!---->
3/3/2002 10:01 pm
To:
ALL
2600.3 in reply to 2600.2
View Image the first step in the process it to make an angled cut to the top of the rootstock and then a complementary cut to the bottom of the scion - sharp knife and use the strenght in your arms to pull the knife and stock apart
2600.4 in reply to 2600.3
View Image next is the 'backcut', on both the stock and scion; the purpose of which is to provide mechanical support between the stock and scion while they knit -
jt8
From:
David_Doud <!----><!---->
3/3/2002 10:06 pm
To:
ALL
2600.5 in reply to 2600.4
View Image after the knife work is complete, take the snips and cut the scion to length with a bud near the top of the cut - here's the pieces ready to be locked together -
2600.6 in reply to 2600.5
View Image now the pieces are pushed together such that the 'tounges' interlock - the key to success is at this step - the cuts don't have to match perfectly, the stock and scion don't have to be the same size, there can be a lot of 'ugly' about it, IF the cambium matches over at least a third of the cut - how to do this? - look at the close-up of the cuts again - there is the outer bark, a light green layer of signifigant thickness, and a dark line that separates the light green from the darker green center of the wood - the dark line is where the action is - this is what you seek to match betweent the stock and scion - do not 'split the difference' if there is size difference between stock and scion - match on one side (the side that the bud at the top is on, BTW)
2600.7 in reply to 2600.6
View Image next the graft is wrapped - I prefer these rubber budding strips, (all this equipment is availible at http://www.amleo.com and other suppliers) I've seen people just cut rubber bands and use them, athletic tape will work - after growth commences, make sure that what is used doesn't girdle the tree -
jt8
From:
David_Doud <!----><!---->
3/3/2002 10:30 pm
To:
ALL
2600.8 in reply to 2600.7
View Image then the graft it dipped in the molten wax - this keeps the scion from drying out while the tree knits -
2600.9 in reply to 2600.8
View Image the finished tree - usually I heel in bundles of ten and don't pot till spring - I raise the trees in gallon pots and plant out in late summer or fall -
2600.10 in reply to 2600.9
View Image Well, that went fairly well - only one delete - so here's a bonus course if any of you want to amaze and astound your friends - dad was maintaining some rootstocks in pots last summer and they are rather big - I'm going to use a couple of them to try to have potted trees with apples on them - the key to making this work is to graft on 2 year old wood that has flower buds on it - it is necessary to get a good match in diameters so that there is not much shock to the fruiting branch - here is what this fruiting wood looks like - can you see the bloom buds?
2600.11 in reply to 2600.10
View Image the cut is prepared just like the previous example -
2600.12 in reply to 2600.11
View Image I wrap this with grafting tape because it provides more support - these will be fragile till july or so - if I get a take and set fruit I'll stake it - suppose I could do it now -
2600.13 in reply to 2600.12
View Image the completed tree - I'll hold this in a cool place and try not to let it get ahead of the trees in the field - this is GoldRush, which is a late variety that hangs well, so if it works it'll be around for the whole season - I've done this twice before, it's not really good for much other than conversation, but you people with very limited space CAN be fruit growers too!
jt8
The original replies:
From: Rosebud 3/4/2002 6:15 am To: ALL (14 of 24) 2600.14 in reply to 2600.13 What a great pictoral directory! THanks for taking the time to post this, I have really enjoyed looking over it. Would I be correct in assuming that you use the same technique for other grafted plants, like camellias?
From: Jeana 3/4/2002 8:09 am To: ALL (15 of 24) 2600.15 in reply to 2600.14 Taunton ought to give you article space.
From: Karen_W. 3/4/2002 8:19 am To: ALL (16 of 24) 2600.16 in reply to 2600.15 Rosebud, I was wondering the same thing. Ruth, this thread will need to go in the permanent reference folder (after we all get done reading and asking questions). From: Jeana 3/4/2002 8:51 am To: ALL (17 of 24) 2600.17 in reply to 2600.16 Ok, so we're all chipping in for Dave to come to the fest to do a hands on workshop, right? From: Creta_Pullen 3/4/2002 11:28 am To: ALL (18 of 24) 2600.18 in reply to 2600.17 Thanks for the lesson David--I have a root stock that is 3 years old and have been meaning to graft an apple to it--but have quite gotten there yet. This year I may try to graft 3 or more grafts to it. is there a better time of year to do grafting? From: David_Doud 3/4/2002 10:29 pm To: ALL (19 of 24) 2600.19 in reply to 2600.18 Hullo, Rosebud - you're welcome - your question about camellias sent me to the shelf reference of 'Hartman and Kester' - they talk about camellia as 'hard to graft' and suggest using an 'approach graft', where the stock in a pot is brought to a large plant of desirable variety, a cut is made in both the stock and a similar size branch of the variety such that they 'kiss' (my word), and are secured tightly together, left several weeks, and then the top is cut from the stock and the limb from the variety to develope the plant - I know that's rather unclear, if I had a scanner, it would save a thousand words - and also, sometimes the plants don't read the book - if I had the plant material handy (the scion must be dormant), I wouldn't hesitate to make a couple of whip and tongue grafts - might get lucky - DOUD
From: David_Doud 3/4/2002 10:48 pm To: ALL (20 of 24) 2600.20 in reply to 2600.19 Hi Creta, I hope you have luck with your grafting - to use the technique per above, you have to have dormant scionwood - so you need to collect it soon, place in plastic with damp (not soaking) towel, and into refridgeration (not with fruit) - if the stock is established outside, wait until the threat of freezing temps have past and do your grafting then - there are also techniques for propagation in the summertime in case any of your grafts should fail - if the stars align correctly this summer I'll post another thread on those techniques -
are you planning to make three grafts of the same variety, or multible varieties on the same tree? - -
From: Creta_Pullen 3/5/2002 10:46 am To: ALL (21 of 24) 2600.21 in reply to 2600.20 Thanks David--I want to make 3 grafts of multiple varieties. From: Astrid_Churchill 3/5/2002 12:53 pm To: ALL (22 of 24) 2600.22 in reply to 2600.21 Thank you David, your explanation and photos give me a much clearer idea of what I want to do. This year I hope to take the time to make a complete graft or two, start to finish.
jt8
Never wood have guess'ed having spent close to 4 days solid with him..alone, in a van...he IS.
Master.
DD I got to get one o' my little sweeter than honey fruits to show ya..these ( this year) are in-freaking-credible.
Must be the drought? The fire blight? The bees?..Man, golfball sized reds, little skin scar..and SU-WHEET.
I think it's crossed witha crab..the tree is short and squatty,,,,maybe 20' tall, 20' around the dripzone,,been here for maybe 60 yrs according to the neighbors and similar grow.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
I'm sure there is a term for an orchard master, but I don't know what it is.
jt8
The Big Apple?
Are you recpitive for a ringy dingy?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
Why not? I could use a sun break...
It's....
Orchard Master...two Caps.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
Thanks for that!
Over the Fence is a graveyard. Better to have it over here. Your hoophouse thread had more activity than their whole forum.
jt8
So if a storm comes through and knocks a branch off the neighbor's apple tree, I just need to make a clean cut on the end and then pick a tree in my yard to wack a branch off to graft the apple branch onto?
jt8
I believe the appropriate descriptor is 'Ent' - to use this technique, you need to have dormant wood - I'll usually cut what I know I'll need in December, fully dormant, but before the danger of low temperature injury (most years) and store in the barn fridge, leaving plenty of room for beer - system also works best with young vigorous wood, but you can make it work with old gnarly stuff if that's the only option - "there's enough for everyone"
If we figure a way to wack off a Mulberry and graft a fruit tree on it, we could make a fortune! The mulberries are pests and darn hard to get rid of around here.
And if the stars are in proper alignment and my long shot comes in of finishing the current house and managing to buy the one for sale with 7 acres comes through... I will be pestering the Hades out of you about tree info.
But again, that grafting article was great. Short and to the point with good pics. And people can ask questions if they have them. What more can you ask for?jt8
nice job capturing the thread, BTW - "there's enough for everyone"
JT,
Thanx for putting that together.
I often roam the shallow end. Alot of good, shared knowledge there.
Chuck S
live, work, build, ...better with wood
Edited 10/24/2008 8:23 pm ET by stevent1
Got any more photo-how-to's for us? You can keep it running like the farming thread or hoop house thread. People seem interested.
jt8
I have an old pecan tree in my back yard that has "split apart" really badlyI have a chain holding the two sections together and would like to save the treeAny suggestions?The tree is about 50 ft tall and the trunk of the tree is about 18" Thanks for any input.
there is no 'healing' of your pecan tree - it can be stabilized to some extent, and it might just outlive you - you speak of chain holding it together - that's close, but you can't leave it wrapped around the trunk, if it is - the halves need secured by drilling thru the trunk(s) above the split at the strategic point - eye bolts thru the trunks, secured with washers/nuts and then cable strung between the eyes - a treatment like that, along with some careful reduction (20-25%) of the canopy above the split should keep the tree vital for quite a while - if you get the 100 year storm, all bets are off - hope it doesn't threaten any structures....you really need a pro with a bucket truck or a serious climber - probably cost you ~$500 or so - emphasis on 'pro' when it comes to pruning - ask to see some of their work - if you see that they make 'bloody stubs' (limbs cut off at an abitrary point), look further for someone who can cut on a tree and leave the 'hierarchy' intact (no bloody stubs, you can follow the trunk right out to fine twigs, not stopped by a big cut) - I need to take some picts - lots of real ugly tree trimming goes on - "there's enough for everyone"
David,
Question: I've been told that seeds from fruit borne by trees produced by the grafting method won't breed true. I seem to remember it had something to do with what sort of root stock was used to create the tree.
Is this true? And if so, why?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Michael Pollan covers this in his book The Botany of Desire. As i remember, the seeds of apples (can't speak for other fruits) will not resemble the parents. The vast majority of seeds will not even produce decent fruit. Which was why grafting was introduced, as a way to reproduce the few good trees from the many poor ones.
That was part of the myth of the Johnny Appleseed story. The fruit from the seeds wasn't like something you'd see in a market. Most of the apples then weren't eaten: they were crushed into cider and applejack.
He also covers the history of the tulip trade, the potato, and marijuana. A great book if you get a chance at it.
That book sounds like a good candidate for the Santa list....
Yesterday while I was thinking about this, I ran across an article on the web by a British apple breeder named Hugh Ermen. 'Fruit Trees on Their Own Roots.' Apparently, one of the main reasons root stocks are used is that apple trees produced from seed and growing on their own root systems are too tall to make harvesting commercially practical. Thus, the development of what they call 'dwarf' root stock, and the subsequent grafting of various apple varieties to produce short, wide, trees.
However, says Mr Ermen, there are quality and production problems inherent in mismatching of rootstock and scion, it seems, and this has resulted in a degradation of apple types over the years.
I didn't understand all of it, but I got the impression growing apples on their own roots is going to regain popularity as a new generation of growers approach things more organically and with an eye to correcting the abuses of science run amok....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Thanks for your advice - the tree will not fall on any houses, but a major part of the tree hangs over power lines and will probably take them out when the branch falls some day.Thanks again!
Maybe I should be reading the other forum - this is very interesting.
I've got several cherry trees (red, they seem sweet, don't know exactly what type) that are doing fairly well. The previous owners planted a lot of things and then it all got out of control when they were too old to take care of it. There is also a yellow cherry tree that seems to be mostly rotten at this point - I've broken several branches off by hand that are about 3" in diameter. Dead inside.
So - getting to the point. Could I graft (using this method) some small branches from the sick tree to a healthy mature tree? It would be nice to be able to keep the yellows - they are very good.
thanks
russ
Awesome. Just awesome.
Thanks,
DITCH
Grafting has always interested me since one of my parents mature navel orange trees died and was cut off at the trunk. It then came back as a pretty decent lemon bush.
I have always wondered if those "fruit cocktail" trees really work.
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.