Replies

1. 
   BarryE | Mar 27, 2003 04:44am | #1

   Polyseamseal is my choice

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   View Image

   Barry E
2. 
   brian_pontolilo | Mar 27, 2003 04:39pm | #2

   I don't want to hijack this thread, so everyone please respond to Frankieang, but I got excited when I saw it because I was recently assigned to an article on caulk. 

   As I slowly begin to research the article I have been wondering, "What do people need to know about caulk?"  Keep in mind that this isn't limited to any application for, or type of caulk. For now my focus is... well anything but focused, it's actually quite broad.   

   So what common mistakes or misuses do you guys see associated with caulk?  What brands do you prefer for different applications?  From your experience, what do people need to know about caulk?

   Who knows, maybe if you say something witty, I'll quote you in the article. 

   Thanks,

   Brian P.

    

   It's my job!

1. 
   MrPita2 | Mar 27, 2003 05:13pm | #3

   Frankie,

   I just did the same (tile wall to tub).  I used "GE Silicone II 100% Silicone Sealant Kitchen & Bath".  Comes in a red & gold package, costs close to $5 per tube at HD.  I caulked it a few (2-3) years ago with a cheaper, but not cheap, "better" caulk.  I had to reseal because it leaked.  So, only the "best" now.  The new stuff is lifetime guarantee, mildew resist (when cured), watertight, non-shrink, permanently flexible.  Or so the package says.  We'll see if I 'm replacing the ceilng below again in 2-3 years. :)  I'd expect that any top of the line K&B caulk from any manufacturer should perform similarly.

   If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.

2. 
   MrPita2 | Mar 27, 2003 05:21pm | #4

   Brian,

   What kind of article?  General caulk information, tips & techniques, etc.? A review of the available types? Or a caulk performance review, showing how different brands perform?

   Biggest mistake I see is trying to close a Grand Canyon sized gap with caulk.  Tell people to use backer rods where appropriate.  Just like paint, it'll only look as good as the surface(s) it's on.  Caulk is no excuse not to strive for the tightest joints possible.  Use the smallest bead size that'll get the job done right.  Aside from the above post, no brand reccommendations.  Any given product level between manufacturers should be similiar.  But put OSI's "best", against GE's "good", or vice versa, I'd expect a noticable difference. 

   Well, no revelations from me.  Just the common sense kind of stuff I've been taught, heard, or read all along.  But I guess if a person hasn't heard or read that stuff, it is a revelation. :)

   If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.

1. 
   brian_pontolilo | Mar 27, 2003 05:44pm | #5

   The article, in theory:

   General caulk information--what is available for different applications... painting, plumbing, weather proofing, interior and exterior. (But not a review of different products)

   Tips and techniques--some selective pointers in the way of side bars. (Possibly about applying, spooning, backer rod, etc.)

   Related info--Caulking guns, sources of supply,...

   I haven't really begun my research, but saw this thread as an opportunity

   Thanks for the input.

   Brian P.It's my job!

1. 
   MrPita2 | Mar 27, 2003 06:24pm | #6

   Other information - if you're going to reccomend certain caulks for certain applications, give translations to real terms or brand names.  What I mean is don't just say "For example X you need a butyl-vinyl-silicone-rubber type caulk."  At leasst add on, say "For example X you need a butyl-vinyl-silicone-rubber, such as GE SuperCaulk 4000, or OSI's PLExtreme 5000."  Maybe a glossary of the quasi-chemical name terms caulk companies use.  (Butyl, Latex, Acrylic, Silicone, Siliconized, etc.)What's the diff between a butyl or silicone rubber?  Does one have properties that suit it to certain tasks, or makes it unsuitable to certain others?

   Whatever brands you list, research to see if they're naitonal.  I hate seeing a great review of or article on a product (I know it's not a review) only to find that the product isn't sold east or west of the Mississippi.  Caulk isn't something I'm likely to mail order.  Obvious exception to naitionalism is if the caulk only has a limited regional use, but none come to mind.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.

1. 
   NormKerr | Mar 27, 2003 07:19pm | #7

   I think that caulk, like most chemical products (paint, adhesives, etc.) there is no one best kind to use or method to apply for all applications.

   Instead there are best kinds for certain applications, including best techniques.

   For instance, installing exterior lap siding, you should fit everything as tight as possible and intend to use caulk sparingly, for a long lived installation. Whereas, a watertight seal, like around a tub surround, requires a particular minimum gap size in order for the caulk to adhere (if you install the surround with too small of a gap, the caulk won't be able to properly get into and seal the joint and you can get leaks). By the same token, there is a maximum size gap for each situation, as Mr. Pita points out.

   Ideally, your article will cover each typical situation where caulk is used and provide recommended materials and techniques for each. The best would be a ranking of several brands of caulk for each of these situations so that readers can see why one product will work better for them than another will.

   I think that caulk needs to be seen as more of a maintainence item than most people do. The grout around the tiles in a shower should last for decades, if properly installed and cleaned. But the caulk at the joint between the walls and tub will need to be re-done periodically. Most people seem to think that the caulk should last as long as the grout and you see mouldy, leaking caulk which leads to grout failure and more. Hopefully you will point this out to people and get more of them to do what is right for the maximum life of their house's parts!

   Norm

2. 
   MisterT | Mar 28, 2003 01:54pm | #19

   Caulk is one home improvement material that should only be sold to people who can prove they are competant.

   There seems to be a persisting myth out there, that if caulk should be used and I and to use the best, and silicone is the best, then I should use silicone.  Silicone in the wrong sitiuation just makes an impossible mess.

   Tub & Sink caulk works best for, (you guessed it!) Tubs and sinks.

   Proper caulking includes tooling and clean up. Masking tape and a release agent (soapy water is one that works good in a lot of cases) are the proper tools for a quality instalation.

   Color matching and conservative application go along way towards a neat looking job.

   Mr T

   Do not try this at home!

   I am an Experienced Professional!

2. 
   Steve1 | Mar 27, 2003 11:40pm | #10

   any one had experiences with acrylic latex caulking for kitchens and baths?

   ive been using it for countertop work for a while and its much easier than silicone.

   excess washes off with water, paintable etc

   seems like a good product, any feed back

   steve

   "caulking is not a piece of trim"

1. 
   CAGIV | Mar 28, 2003 12:51am | #11

   acrylic latex is good for taking paint, but not necessarily what you want in a wet environment.View ImageGo Jayhawks

2. 
   KARLSTER | Mar 28, 2003 09:03am | #18

   Steve, I have tried both various water clean up caulking as well as silicone for countertop work and have found the shrinkage of the water based caulks to be a frustration. 

    Also I frequently find with polyseamseal caulk I have a hard time cleaning it so thoroughly (without getting the intended caulk joint too wet) that I don't get a haze on the countertop or sink after it dries.  Ultimately all the water clean up caulks seem to have more potential for requiring additional touch up after curing than does silicone.  The type of use  I am talking about is the joint between a stone countertop and backsplash.

   I like Dap Kwik Seal the best for caulking around white cast iron sinks.  It tools well, tends to correct irregularties in its tooling as it cures and it cures quickly.  I believe it is a vinyl caulk similar to Polyseamseal.

   Karl

3. 
   b1gcountry | Mar 27, 2003 08:50pm | #8

   To original poster, go for a high quality silicon caulk and expect to replace it every once in a while. My family always used DAP, and they have a super 50-year kind (or something). But depending on how well we kept up the bath, we always got mold eventually.

   To the general caulk question, I think the most important thing to note is: POP FOIL BEFORE USING. damhikt. The other thing I found interesting lately is the peal and seal kind that DAP puts out. I just bought a tube and I'm waiting for something to try it out on (don't know if its old news, but its new to me). Another question is the difference between the grades of caulk. DAP makes their Alex, then Alex Plus, and then something like Alex Pro. Besides 'quality', what is the real difference between all these grades?

   Tom

1. 
   SMXSteve | Mar 29, 2003 12:26am | #20

   A week ago I used DAP tub and shower caulk around my new shower. We started using the shower recently and now have this white sticky stuff everywhere. Its consistency is like globs of old paint. I wrote DAP but haven't heard back. But I now have a mess.

   Not sure what you used or for but I do not recommend DAP.

   Steve

1. 
   AaronRosenthal | Mar 29, 2003 03:02am | #21

   Steve, the only time i've ever had what you describe was when I used the stuff in the red tube - kwick seal, I think it's called. Customer had it and insisted I use it. I charged for the call-back.

   I use GE or DAP Titanium II and have never had a failure.

   You said the installation was new, but it sounds like a moisture problem to me.

   Quality repairs for your home.

   Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada

1. 
   SMXSteve | Mar 29, 2003 08:55pm | #26

   "stuff in the red tube - kwick seal"

   Yes, that was the stuff. I'm not sure how you avoid moisture around a shower but the tube said shower and tub. I caulked where the shower mfr instructed. But now I have a mess to clean up before I can re-caulk. Always fun to keep the project going.

4. 
   PhillGiles | Mar 27, 2003 10:30pm | #9

   Rules for buying caulk:

   #1 - the one you've been using for years is no longer made by the manufacturer.

   #2 - the one that everyone now recommends is no longer sold by your supplier.

   Sorry if this sounds glib, but this seems to be happening with everything lately..

   Phill Giles

   The Unionville Woodwright

   Unionville, Ontario

1. 
   Mooney | Mar 29, 2003 06:04pm | #24

   "#2 - the one that everyone now recommends is no longer sold by your supplier."

   Dap is a painters choice of caulk as a Purdy brush has gained that popularity.  Seems ever supply store tries to reinvent the wheel and sell another caulk.

   Have you got Dap caulk?" No, weve got a better line of caulk" See ya . Happens over and over to painters and they do the same thing ; walk.  They normally buy lots of cases in a short time and a lot of stores never catch on to it. Its our choice , not theirs, which caulk is sold.  

   Tim Mooney 

1. 
   BarryE | Mar 29, 2003 06:18pm | #25

   Guess marketing really works.

   View Image

   Barry E

5. 
   RW | Mar 28, 2003 02:04am | #13

   Cheap caulk isn't worth it. For an extra dollar a tube, it'll last better. You know when the HO says "well I caulked it with this stuff last summer that was on sale and now it's all split and I'm a little concerned since the wall under the window is damp. . ."

   Silicone isn't the universal golden egg

   Second the idea of not relying on caulk at all. Even the best eventually fails.

   I can't tell you how many tubs, under a year old, I have recaulked. I wasn't there to watch the initial install, but I suspect filling the tub with water for weight isn't something they've heard about.

   Random thoughts from a haphazard head." If you kill a man, it is a tragedy. If you kill a million, it is a statistic." - Josepf Stalin, attributed.

6. 
   r_ignacki | Mar 28, 2003 03:45am | #14

   you want witty?   how about  "Do your best and caulk the rest"     <g>

1. 
   HammerHarry | Mar 28, 2003 04:15am | #15

   There is (was?) a silly home handyperson show in Canada, hosted by a female actress/comic (Mag Ruffman), who is married to a real contractor.  She was silly and frequently inept, and did not take herself seriously, but it could be funny.

   My favorite episode involved recaulking a bathtub, and she stood in the tub, gun in hand, and with a straight face told the camera  "there's a lot of caulks in this world, and a girl's gotta know which one will fit her needs...."

1. 
   mmoogie | Mar 28, 2003 05:34am | #16

   Brian,

   I treat caulk as a cosmetic solution for most residential applications. Its main purpose for me is to close unsightly gaps. I try to build not using caulk as a primary line of defense against moisture. I build with drainage details that will function when (not if) the caulk fails.

   I had a discussion about this very thing with my employer the other day. I was fitting wood clapboards tight to the cornerboards. He stopped by and said "you're too good. There should be a gap." I elucidated my philosophy. He blinked several times and said "that's a novel way to look at it." Coming from a contractor who prides himself on his meticulous restoration work, I thought it was an odd reaction to a very traditional approach.

   I had this same discussion with Mike Smith on the boards here a long time ago. His painter advocates a 1/8" gap at the joints for the caulk. I agree with the premise that if you want the caulk to stay in place longer, give it a gap to go into. But it will fail eventually, and then you've got to caulk it again. Better to not have to caulk it at all or just minimally for cosmetic enhancement.

   Same with tub/tile joints. The substrate and drainage planes of the backer materials should prevent leakage when (not if) the caulk joints fail. The original poster should never have to face the possibility that his ceiling will be damaged if the caulk joint fails.

   That said, I would really like to know when and where it's best to use polyurethanes versus tri-polymer, versus silicone, versus siliconized latex, versus butyl, etc. What ones are best for using as adhesives under what circumstances? How paintable is a tri-polymer or a siliconized latex? How not paintable is silicone, really, and what happens if you use some in a area that needs to be painted?

   What do they use in commercial windows that really do rely on the caulk for the weather seal? How long do those applications last? I was on a residential job where they used very expensive steel casements that relied entirely on caulk for their seal. Was wondering what the life expectancey of such a seal is. I notice that in those instances the joints is very fat, like 1/4-1/2" wide, and entirely comprised of caulk.

   Sorry about the ramble...

   Steve

1. 
   MHinshaw | Mar 28, 2003 08:45am | #17

   Steve,

   In commercial applications, you will find mostly urethane, polyurethane or silicones.  The good stuff is not available at Home Depot or Lowe's.  A brand like SikaFlex has amazing bond and strength but most importantly, tools well (with a calking knife - not a finger!)  Larger joints are accomplished with the right sized backer rod and skill in tooling the sealant.

2. 
   toast953 | Mar 29, 2003 07:04am | #22

   Steve , the Glazer's I'am familiar with, use Butly, it is avaliable, it is sticky stuff, that will leave spider webs all over. 

7. 
   ProDek | Mar 29, 2003 08:59am | #23

   I like DAP acrylic latex caulk plus silicone and Polyseamseal

   indoor/outdoor

   mildew resistant

   water clean-up

   The Polyseamseal Small flexible resealable tube works great for small jobs and like the DAP ALEX PLUS for the larger jobs.

   Now here goes the opinions on how to apply the caulk. I like to push the bead of caulk to eliminate too much excess caulk, some guys like to pull. Either way works but the key to keeping it from getting all over both surfaces is to remove the excess by taking short strokes, about 4", with a damp finger and wiping it onto a rag. After you have done this , then take a longer 3' stroke with a damp finger. This leaves very little residue, and a clean caulk line, whether you're working inside or out.

   Stay away from damp sponges or rags to remove caulk because it removes too much. Your finger is the best caulking tool you have. Just don't pick your nose, this product has ethylene glycol in it.

   Bob

   "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

3. 
   RichBeckman | Mar 28, 2003 01:22am | #12

   For the original poster, I will cast another vote for Polyseamseal.

   Brian,

   One thing I'd like to know is what the difference is between Polyseamseal in the white and red tube and Polyseamseal Bath and Tile in the white and blue tube. Sure seems like the same stuff in both tubes.

   Rich Beckman

   Another day, another tool.